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Public sector pay: the wrong debate
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So let me be the first to hold my hand up and say Yes i spent a lot, borrowed a bit during the boom, i went on some fantastic holidays and i have a good car (didn't buy prooperty though) so there you have it, I was living above my means and AIB financed a lot of it, i accept my part in the spending boom of the last 5 years, it was great craic though wasn't it
Yes Tippman, right on, and the country isn't dead so let's keep the craic going. Look at countries like Somalia, Liberia, and best example Zimbabwe, We could have Robert Muagbe leading us...
This sounds soft but i consider myself lucky, Maybe the money has been lost or pulled back but we'll never starve and be killing eachother on the streets...It's only money at the end of the day....you can't eat it or breathe it....0 -
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Well for starters my girlfriends company (my old company) has introduced 10% wage cuts, no bonus. A couple of friends of mine (factory jobs) have been put on 3 day weeks. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean its not happening.
Are you talking about some kinda world economy here, what i am saying is that Irish jobs are being lost at unprecedented rates, take a look at our unemployement levels if you don't believe me. Now if your saying the reason is because its cheaper to employ people elsewhere then i agree completly but this was a discussion on the Irish economy and at the moment people cannot get work even if they are willing to work cheaper, that is surely a common known fact.
Again, You are talking about low/un skilled jobs.
My point exactly. Nobody i know who is on the dole for more than a few weeks is skilled.
Among skilled workers you do not see this. If you dont want to be one of the ones cut. Make sure you get some skills that are not easily replaced.0 -
The exchequer returns and numbers signing on would appear to differ. As far as the state is concerned a job loss is a 100% pay cut and then some (social welfare flowing out instead of income tax flowing in).
Now we are getting somewhere. If you can show me the breakdown of job losses by skilled people and otherwise, that would be great.
I bet you'll find 95% of them are low/unskilled workers.0 -
Now we are getting somewhere. If you can show me the breakdown of job losses by skilled people and otherwise, that would be great.
I bet you'll find 95% of them are low/unskilled workers.
That surely depends on what you class as a skilled worker, are electricians, plumbers, architects engineers skilled or not??
How do you define a skilled worker exactly??0 -
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Again, You are talking about low/un skilled jobs.
My point exactly. Nobody i know who is on the dole for more than a few weeks is skilled.
Among skilled workers you do not see this. If you dont want to be one of the ones cut. Make sure you get some skills that are not easily replaced.
Sorry but the company my girlfriend works for is certainly a very skilled area. An accountant friend of mine for a company down the country is on a 3 day week, another has lost her job in a practice.
I think your talking rubbish to be honest. Sure the economy hasn't come to a complete standstill, we'd be in some trouble if it did, and people can still get jobs, I'm even testament to that as i changed jobs in March this year. The point is though that they are all types of people on the dole at the moment, the very skilled, the very un-skilled and everything in between and your in cloud cuckoo land if you can't see that.0 -
instead of wage cuts how about making the public/civil servants work for their money with realistic work deadlines and targets?
I know of several civil/public servants who are hard working but have stories of departments with large numbers of staff where no work is done all day, where paper gets moved desk to desk with no decision, with crazy flexi time that allows staff to come to work on saturday mornings when there is no looking for the service, of a people on sick leave for two weeks with a publically paid mobile phone with calls home from New York (and still in the job).
At the same time public sector workers are comparing wages to the private sector not realising that nearly 250,000 people have lost jobs in the last year.
I don't see the point though of cutting the salaries of Nurses, Garda and teachers. There are front line workers and we depended on them. In the case of the Garda we should be increasing numbers.
Remove some the mangers, such as those whose jobs non longer exists after the HSE was forrmed. Enforce contracts, remove those who don;t perform etc
Better use of IT. Massive over reliance on paper.
Enforce laws traffic, litter and other laws that generate revenue.
This would have the dual effect of raising revenue and also making our country safer and tidier.0 -
Because we cannot afford to keep spending the amount of money on the public sector. The wage costs need to be reduced AND they need to be made more efficient.instead of wage cuts how about making the public/civil servants work for their money with realistic work deadlines and targets?
Thats all great but look at the amount on money wasted on IT projects already by incompetent project managers. I agree it needs to be done but not by the people that wasted so much money on previous IT projects.Better use of IT. Massive over reliance on paper.0 -
I know of two HSE staff that when their project ceased 11 years ago they slipped through the cracks and are still drawing their salary and do absolutely nothing,now there is waste0
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That surely depends on what you class as a skilled worker, are electricians, plumbers, architects engineers skilled or not??
How do you define a skilled worker exactly??
Are you reading what im posting at all?
Please re-read and pay close attention to where i said un/low skilled workers and construction workers.Sorry but the company my girlfriend works for is certainly a very skilled area. An accountant friend of mine for a company down the country is on a 3 day week, another has lost her job in a practice.
I think your talking rubbish to be honest. Sure the economy hasn't come to a complete standstill, we'd be in some trouble if it did, and people can still get jobs, I'm even testament to that as i changed jobs in March this year. The point is though that they are all types of people on the dole at the moment, the very skilled, the very un-skilled and everything in between and your in cloud cuckoo land if you can't see that.
So your girlfriends company is one. Where are the rest?
If your accountant friend is any good tell him to PM me. There are always jobs for skilled accountants where i work. If hes not any good, then tell him not to bother.
Show me the stats on the amount of skilled workers who arent in construction who are out of work? That will clear a lot up, wont it? There must be more than just your girlfriend surely.0 -
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I know of two HSE staff that when their project ceased 11 years ago they slipped through the cracks and are still drawing their salary and do absolutely nothing,now there is waste
I know a girl working for the HSE who's contract was suppossed to finish in March, they keep paying her (she does keep going to work to be fair to her)0 -
instead of wage cuts how about making the public/civil servants work for their money with realistic work deadlines and targets?
I know of several civil/public servants who are hard working but have stories of departments with large numbers of staff where no work is done all day, where paper gets moved desk to desk with no decision, with crazy flexi time that allows staff to come to work on saturday mornings when there is no looking for the service, of a people on sick leave for two weeks with a publically paid mobile phone with calls home from New York (and still in the job).
At the same time public sector workers are comparing wages to the private sector not realising that nearly 250,000 people have lost jobs in the last year.
I don't see the point though of cutting the salaries of Nurses, Garda and teachers. There are front line workers and we depended on them. In the case of the Garda we should be increasing numbers.
Remove some the mangers, such as those whose jobs non longer exists after the HSE was forrmed. Enforce contracts, remove those who don;t perform etc
Better use of IT. Massive over reliance on paper.
Enforce laws traffic, litter and other laws that generate revenue.
This would have the dual effect of raising revenue and also making our country safer and tidier.
We all know some one who's done something and been somewhere or been hired and kept on which all makes the public sector look bad, I'm done with this Public Sector bashing, it's getting to me, I have more to be at than to be reading whinging posts about they have this and we have'nt got that and we're missing out, Cop on, you had the chance to go for the public sector jobs but didn't go for them so get over it and move on.
Better use of IT you say, I work in IT and we have implemented IPT phones, Virtual servers, printer servers, Power management for all PC's and servers saving the public hundreds of thousands and cut paper bills by 75%, don't talk about what you don't know.
Emmigrate, you'd be happier....quit the whinging and begrudgery....
We all know reforms are needed in the Public Sector so someone close out this bulls*t post....0 -
Are you reading what im posting at all?
Please re-read and pay close attention to where i said un/low skilled workers and construction workers.
So your girlfriends company is one. Where are the rest?
If your accountant friend is any good tell him to PM me. There are always jobs for skilled accountants where i work. If hes not any good, then tell him not to bother.
Show me the stats on the amount of skilled workers who arent in construction who are out of work? That will clear a lot up, wont it? There must be more than just your girlfriend surely.
Please define exactly what you mean by unskilled workers, take the construction sector, what jobs do you class as skilled and what are unskilled?? its impossible to get those stats till you tell me your definition of skilled. to help you i will list the jobs i want you to define, brickey, plasterer, architect, sparky, painter, engineer, Quantity Surveyor, Carpenter.
Also just to clarify my girlfriend is very much in employment, my post clearly states that her company employees took a 10% paycut.0 -
We all know some one who's done something and been somewhere or been hired and kept on which all makes the public sector look bad, I'm done with this Public Sector bashing, it's getting to me, I have more to be at than to be reading whinging posts about they have this and we have'nt got that and we're missing out, Cop on, you had the chance to go for the public sector jobs but didn't go for them so get over it and move on.
Better use of IT you say, I work in IT and we have implemented IPT phones, Virtual servers, printer servers, Power management for all PC's and servers saving the public hundreds of thousands and cut paper bills by 75%, don't talk about what you don't know.
Emmigrate, you'd be happier....quit the whinging and begrudgery....
We all know reforms are needed in the Public Sector so someone close out this bulls*t post....
Calm down Wiley1. As the poster said, some people are hardworking and excellent and some are complete wasters. "The System" allows these wasters to survive whereas everyone would be happy if these people were weeded out.
It is just too easy to bash the public sector. Sorry, but it is.
Don't a lot of public sector workers get paid for 30 mins on a Saturday for "cashing their pay cheque" even though their salaries go directly into their bank accounts?
What about the moving from the Health Boards to the HSE and not a single job was lost.
It is these little things that make it difficult for those people in the private sector who work extremely hard and are brilliant workers but still end up losing their jobs or suffering pay decreases.
If you can defend and justify these little things, then fair play, I would hope most people will listen honestly and those who don't - forget them - they don't know anything anyways.0 -
Regardless of sector/skill level, irish people (private sector only so far) are losing their jobs left right and centre. They obviously contributed to the tax net in most cases and now they are an unintentional burden on the system.Now we are getting somewhere. If you can show me the breakdown of job losses by skilled people and otherwise, that would be great.
I bet you'll find 95% of them are low/unskilled workers.
I think your sector (financial/accounting) is just as busy doing liquidations during a recession as doing returns during a boom, but outside that world it's a different story.
Anyone connected to manufacturing is at risk. You don't read about the job losses at Intel (yet) because it's all contractors, but contractors make up a good 20%+ of the workforce in Intel Ireland. These are highly skilled individuals, losing their jobs. A lot of such firms aren't even offering a pay cut, just redundancy (or in limited circumstances relocation to foreign countries). These are people I know personally, so that's one sector feeling the heat (and has been for years now, but the govt. hid the decline in such manufacturing with the tax returns from house buying/selling. It was a gigantic pyramid scheme run by Brian Cowen and cheered on by the public who returned FF time after time. I stopped voting FF 2 elections ago as I could see it was all smoke and mirrors (not blowing my own trumpet, just worked in the sector and saw it first hand).
Sure, many people could leave Ireland and work in the US/UK/Germany/far east but with families it's harder, and then that knowledge is lost from Ireland, maybe forever.
In any case, regardless of the sector, the tax returns have tumbled and the PS costs have not. The PS costs must now be slashed by 20bn a year to balance the books or we'll run our national debt right back up again like in the 1970s and 80s. Our kids can't afford the PS of today!0 -
I don't think we can afford it today either. The unavoidable fact is we are spending more than we make so something has to give.Our kids can't afford the PS of today!
And, just to add my 2c to the private sector thing, my employer let 300 go earlier this year (about a fifth), and told the rest of us there are no pay rises for 2 years and our work week was being extended by 2.5 hours.
Interestingly none of my friends in the PS complained about the pension levy when it came. They could other friends working in the private sector getting laid off, or not having their contracts renewed (a lot of my friends are engineers). Their view was pretty much "at least we have job security".
While the unions may whine, and a lot of what they are doing right now is posturing, their members know the reality on the ground. The fact that the demonstrations about the pension levy were so weak shows there is a sense of reality out there.0 -
I think you're right. There's also a lot of households where one spouse is public sector and the other is private sector. These families know that the job security is a HUGE benefit. There are isolated members of the PS who refuse to accept reality and who will continue to spout the rhetoric. There are even a few who just don't care about the national debt being run up again so long as they get their boom time (exaggerated) pay which is far more than many other developed western European countries.I don't think we can afford it today either.
The unavoidable fact is we are spending more than we make so something has to give.
And, just to add my 2c to the private sector thing, my employer let 300 go earlier this year (about a fifth), and told the rest of us there are no pay rises for 2 years and the work week was being extended by 2.5 hours.
Interestingly none of my friends in the PS complained about the pension levy when it came. They could other friends working in the private sector gettign laids off, or not having their contracts renewed (a lot of my friends are engineers). Their view was pretty much "at least we have job security".
While the unions may whine, and a lot of what they are doing right now is posturing, their members know the reality on the ground. The fact that the demonstrations about the pension levy were so weak shows there is a sense of reality out there.0 -
As said before not everyone in a country should work in or is suitable to work in the public service, even if its the highest paid public service in the known world. Bad and all as our government borrowings are now, imagine if everyone had to be supported on the average Irish p.s. wage of 966 per week ( source : c.s.o. ), plus pension entitlements ?I have more to be at than to be reading whinging posts about they have this and we have'nt got that and we're missing out, Cop on, you had the chance to go for the public sector jobs but didn't go for them so get over it and move on.Emmigrate, you'd be happier....quit the whinging and begrudgery....
Unfortunately some of us - who invested in the Irish ecomomy - have property and / or other assets in negative equity. Besides, why should people whose families go back many generations and who have worked hard all their lives, over many decades, have to consider emigration because of the greed and incompetence of the government ( who mismanaged the economy, kept extending the section 23 / 27 tax deadlines etc etc ) and their employees ( eg the Central bank / financial regulator , whose job was to prevent the property bubble etc). Its not as if these people were not / are not well paid.0 -
Regardless of sector/skill level, irish people (private sector only so far) are losing their jobs left right and centre. They obviously contributed to the tax net in most cases and now they are an unintentional burden on the system.
I think your sector (financial/accounting) is just as busy doing liquidations during a recession as doing returns during a boom, but outside that world it's a different story.
Anyone connected to manufacturing is at risk. You don't read about the job losses at Intel (yet) because it's all contractors, but contractors make up a good 20%+ of the workforce in Intel Ireland. These are highly skilled individuals, losing their jobs. A lot of such firms aren't even offering a pay cut, just redundancy (or in limited circumstances relocation to foreign countries). These are people I know personally, so that's one sector feeling the heat (and has been for years now, but the govt. hid the decline in such manufacturing with the tax returns from house buying/selling. It was a gigantic pyramid scheme run by Brian Cowen and cheered on by the public who returned FF time after time. I stopped voting FF 2 elections ago as I could see it was all smoke and mirrors (not blowing my own trumpet, just worked in the sector and saw it first hand).
Sure, many people could leave Ireland and work in the US/UK/Germany/far east but with families it's harder, and then that knowledge is lost from Ireland, maybe forever.
In any case, regardless of the sector, the tax returns have tumbled and the PS costs have not. The PS costs must now be slashed by 20bn a year to balance the books or we'll run our national debt right back up again like in the 1970s and 80s. Our kids can't afford the PS of today!
Excellent post and sums up what i've been trying to get across to gdael0 -
instead of wage cuts how about making the public/civil servants work for their money with realistic work deadlines and targets?
I know of several civil/public servants who are hard working but have stories of departments with large numbers of staff where no work is done all day, where paper gets moved desk to desk with no decision, with crazy flexi time that allows staff to come to work on saturday mornings when there is no looking for the service, of a people on sick leave for two weeks with a publically paid mobile phone with calls home from New York (and still in the job).
At the same time public sector workers are comparing wages to the private sector not realising that nearly 250,000 people have lost jobs in the last year.
I don't see the point though of cutting the salaries of Nurses, Garda and teachers. There are front line workers and we depended on them. In the case of the Garda we should be increasing numbers.
Remove some the mangers, such as those whose jobs non longer exists after the HSE was forrmed. Enforce contracts, remove those who don;t perform etc
Better use of IT. Massive over reliance on paper.
Enforce laws traffic, litter and other laws that generate revenue.
This would have the dual effect of raising revenue and also making our country safer and tidier.
agree with most of your post but thier can be no sacred cows when it comes to pay cuts and besides , nurses , guards and teachers are over paid in this country anyhow , let the guards and the teachers take a pay cut and employ extra staff with the money saved , we are over nursed so we only need to cut wages in this area0 -
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Please define exactly what you mean by unskilled workers, take the construction sector, what jobs do you class as skilled and what are unskilled?? its impossible to get those stats till you tell me your definition of skilled. to help you i will list the jobs i want you to define, brickey, plasterer, architect, sparky, painter, engineer, Quantity Surveyor, Carpenter.
Also just to clarify my girlfriend is very much in employment, my post clearly states that her company employees took a 10% paycut.
As i said re-read my posts. The reason i include construction workers with an AND is because they are skilled. I said un/low skilled workers AND construction workers. I dont believe you missed that.
Please look up a dictionary for the meaning of unskilled and low skilled.
Then you can decide who you want to include in the stats.
And if your girlfriends comany all took a 10% pay cut they obviously were not skilled enough to be able to move somewhere else. Its their own faults for putting up with it.
Even so, is it just her company then? The amount of people getting pay cuts is very small isnt it, yet people talk about it as if its rife in the private sector. It isnt.
Like i said anyone i know of who has lost their job or had wage cuts AND is skilled and not in construction has had no problem finding another job. Including contractors.
Id be interested to hear what people posting hear about cutting the public sector actually earn themselves, and what they work at.
Ireland is just full of those of us who like to tear down those in a better position than ourselves. Sickening really.0 -
Its their own fault they did not get a job in the public service. Its their own fault "those-who-did-not-win-the-lotto" etcAnd if your girlfriends comany all took a 10% pay cut they obviously were not skilled enough to be able to move somewhere else. Its their own faults for putting up with it.
It is actually. Most people I know in the private sector are on reduced incomes from say this time last year. From shop workers to salesmen to architects to a vet to tradespeople to business people to restaurenteer to an auctioneer to manufacturers of luxury goods.Even so, is it just her company then? The amount of people getting pay cuts is very small isnt it, yet people talk about it as if its rife in the private sector. It isnt.0 -
Just to contradict myself a little.
Some skilled job losses.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0925/wedgwood.html
Not a very mobile skill though. But then i never got why people buy glass for extortionate prices.0 -
I think you're perspective on different workplaces is very narrow. In my sector it is rather difficult to "go somewhere else" if your in the manufacturing side (engineering) and it closes down. You do realise (for example) that there are only 2 microprocessor fabrication facilities (Intel and Analog Devices) in Ireland? and there are at most 3 or 4 microchip design offices in the republic.And if your girlfriends comany all took a 10% pay cut they obviously were not skilled enough to be able to move somewhere else. Its their own faults for putting up with it.
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Like i said anyone i know of who has lost their job or had wage cuts AND is skilled and not in construction has had no problem finding another job. Including contractors.
It's not like "IT" or accounting where every firm needs staff with those skills. Some skills are simply more transferable (read: not better, harder, more demanding) than others. You appear to be in accountancy from what you said earlier, and that's good for you, but please don't come on here telling me that "if you have a good skill you are guaranteed a job in Ireland" because that is plain b0ll0cks. It is all sector dependent and it's not just the construction sector that's suffering.0 -
Really? I thought you liked 'the finer things in life'....Just to contradict myself a little.
Some skilled job losses.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0925/wedgwood.html
Not a very mobile skill though. But then i never got why people buy glass for extortionate prices.
I think someone's on a wind up tbh...gdael wrote:i backpacked when i was young and penniless.
Loved it.
But now i travel in style. Been to more places and done more things than i ever did when i was backpacking. Its much better when you have money when travelling. It makes it a far better experience than backpacking.
For instance last month i slummed it in the Beverly Hills Hotel. Then went to Vegas and all without a backpack.
Backpacking is for the peasants. Its not better, its just cheaper.0 -
Its their own fault they did not get a job in the public service. Its their own fault "those-who-did-not-win-the-lotto" etc
Dont be so stupid. You know as well as anyone, that if someone doesnt develop their own career then its only their own faults. We are smart enough to be able to control where our career is headed. If you are one of those whos career hits a dead end, then do something about it yourself.It is actually. Most people I know in the private sector are on reduced incomes from say this time last year. From shop workers to salesmen to architects to a vet to tradespeople to business people to restaurenteer to an ,to manufacturers of luxury goods.
I dont believe you.
Show us? Where are all the skilled people losing jobs or taking pay cuts. Ask the vet to pm me too. My local vets practice is looking for another vet.
Look at all the examles you've given.
Shop workers, architects, tradespeople, manufacturers, auctioneer.
All low/un skilled or construction related workers. My point made yet again.
Business people, restaurateur. - you are being a bit vague here. How many people in the restaurant were skilled workers?0 -
Really? I thought you liked 'the finer things in life'....
I think someone's on a wind up tbh...
And why would i or anyone like to buy glass?
Not at all. I dont do backpacking anymore. Whats your problem with that.
Am i not allowed to go on holidays or something.
Maybe you can provide the proof of all the wage cuts and job losses to skilled workers? I doubt it because all the job losses, as i keep saying are low/un skilled or in construction. Maybe we can get the stats from the dole office. The private sector is doing just fine. And i for one cant complain. Why, because i made it my business to develop my career.
I didnt sit on my ass and just cry about others making more than me.0 -
After hearing what the Guards get Slash the fe eckers wages an allowance when they are holiday because they missed out on overtime:mad:0
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I think you're perspective on different workplaces is very narrow. In my sector it is rather difficult to "go somewhere else" if your in the manufacturing side (engineering) and it closes down. You do realise (for example) that there are only 2 microprocessor fabrication facilities (Intel and Analog Devices) in Ireland? and there are at most 3 or 4 microchip design offices in the republic.
It's not like "IT" or accounting where every firm needs staff with those skills. Some skills are simply more transferable (read: not better, harder, more demanding) than others. You appear to be in accountancy from what you said earlier, and that's good for you, but please don't come on here telling me that "if you have a good skill you are guaranteed a job in Ireland" because that is plain b0ll0cks. It is all sector dependent and it's not just the construction sector that's suffering.
Well, like the people who lost money on houses and the stock markets, your career was in your own hands. Maybe you should have been more careful about going down a narrow career path. You could have saved yourself the predicament you are in now with a little foresight.
Lesson for today folks. Dont sit on your asses if your skills are only needed in one place.
So tell us, do you still have a job? If so, why arent you providing for your future by making sure you are mobile for the future - even if you have to get new skills?
And no im not in accountancy. I was a long time ago. Then i moved to IT. Why? Because accountancy didnt pay enough. I was also in construction many years ago, as my first career. I found it was a narrow path, so i diversified.0 -
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As i said re-read my posts. The reason i include construction workers with an AND is because they are skilled. I said un/low skilled workers AND construction workers. I dont believe you missed that.
Please look up a dictionary for the meaning of unskilled and low skilled.
Then you can decide who you want to include in the stats.
And if your girlfriends comany all took a 10% pay cut they obviously were not skilled enough to be able to move somewhere else. Its their own faults for putting up with it.
Even so, is it just her company then? The amount of people getting pay cuts is very small isnt it, yet people talk about it as if its rife in the private sector. It isnt.
Like i said anyone i know of who has lost their job or had wage cuts AND is skilled and not in construction has had no problem finding another job. Including contractors.
Id be interested to hear what people posting hear about cutting the public sector actually earn themselves, and what they work at.
Ireland is just full of those of us who like to tear down those in a better position than ourselves. Sickening really.
my partner is a qualified chartered accountant that cannot find work in the financial sector, i'm in the engineering consultancy sector and down over 40% on my take home pay from two years ago, think gdael is very shortsighted.....0
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