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Public sector pay: the wrong debate
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well done gdael. If everyone avoided "narrow career paths" and stuck to more transferable skills, you'd have no poxy computer to do your "IT" on ;-) . These narrow career paths you speak of are required to develop new technologies. Think before you speak please!Well, like the people who lost money on houses and the stock markets, your career was in your own hands. Maybe you should have been more careful about going down a narrow career path. You could have saved yourself the predicament you are in now with a little foresight.
I am currently on a career break, upskilling and learning software engineering (I graduated in hardware engineering) and the german language actually, but I am not so cocky to ram it down everyone else's throat ;-) I'll return to full time employment some time next year when I'm good and ready.Lesson for today folks. Dont sit on your asses if your skills are only needed in one place.
So tell us, do you still have a job? If so, why arent you providing for your future by making sure you are mobile for the future - even if you have to get new skills?
What age are you? When did you buy your home? You must be in your late forties with a house well paid for to have had 3 skilled job areas (all requiring a degree I presume?) under your belt and be so experienced and skilled at your latest venture (implying you've been doing it quite a while) that you are guaranteed work? Hmmm, like I said, this, coupled with the tone of your other posts on boards leads me to the conclusion that you're on a wind up.And no im not in accountancy. I was a long time ago. Then i moved to IT. Why? Because accountancy didnt pay enough. I was also in construction many years ago, as my first career. I found it was a narrow path, so i diversified.0 -
well done gdael. If everyone avoided "narrow career paths" and stuck to more transferable skills, you'd have no poxy computer to do your "IT" on ;-) . These narrow career paths you speak of are required to develop new technologies. Think before you speak please!
I am currently on a career break, upskilling and learning software engineering (I graduated in hardware engineering) and the german language actually, but I am not so cocky to ram it down everyone else's throat ;-) I'll return to full time employment some time next year when I'm good and ready.
What age are you? When did you buy your home? You must be in your late forties with a house well paid for to have had 3 skilled job areas (all requiring a degree I presume?) under your belt and be so experienced and skilled at your latest venture (implying you've been doing it quite a while) that you are guaranteed work? Hmmm, like I said, this, coupled with the tone of your other posts on boards leads me to the conclusion that you're on a wind up.
I never said there wasnt a need for manufacturing. There will always be people to do it when needed. And they will do it cheaper than you.
Well done to you. At last, someone who is willing to do something about their situation. But did you not see the hardware sector being squeezed eventually, all those years ago? It was even more obvious than the housing bubble. I suppose you did what you wanted to do. Which is great, but not going to keep you in a job in bad times.
Im 34. No house. About to buy one soon i hope (baby on the way so need to settle down). I have a degree.
I did my degree at night when i was working for a construction company.
What about yourself?
But we're getting off the point. So far we have about 3 or 4 skilled private sector workers who have lost jobs or have had pay cuts forced on them. Its not many is it. And yet most of us private sector workers will complain that we are suffering in the recession. But we're not really. Just a few of us are. And that our own faults.
Im still waiting to hear the breakdown of professions of people who have have been on the dole for the last while. Most of them probably wouldnt qualify even to get a job in the public sector during the good times.0 -
As i said re-read my posts. The reason i include construction workers with an AND is because they are skilled. I said un/low skilled workers AND construction workers. I dont believe you missed that.
Please look up a dictionary for the meaning of unskilled and low skilled.
Then you can decide who you want to include in the stats.
And if your girlfriends comany all took a 10% pay cut they obviously were not skilled enough to be able to move somewhere else. Its their own faults for putting up with it.
Even so, is it just her company then? The amount of people getting pay cuts is very small isnt it, yet people talk about it as if its rife in the private sector. It isnt.
Like i said anyone i know of who has lost their job or had wage cuts AND is skilled and not in construction has had no problem finding another job. Including contractors.
Id be interested to hear what people posting hear about cutting the public sector actually earn themselves, and what they work at.
Ireland is just full of those of us who like to tear down those in a better position than ourselves. Sickening really.
Your either a public sector working looking for a wind up by posing as an IT worker in private sector or the most arrogant f##ker i've ever had the displeasure of coming across. A typical product of the boom actually is someone who thinks they can just jump from 1 job to another getting pay increases and then claim to have had some kinda grand plan and pat themslves on the back for getting a pay increase that they probably don't deserve doing a job they are not good enough to do, I've seen plenty who have done very well from this technique and ended up in positions they should never be in getting paid more than they're ever worth. The arrogance that you show by assuming that most people don't have a good idea of how they'd like their career path to develop is staggering.
Just so you know i'm in the finance sector on a good salary, don't really care what you or anyone else earns. I do care however about the huge public sector wage bill which is destroying this country
Just as a matter of interest have you heard that Ireland is in a recession? Do you know what that actualy means? Have you seen the unemployemnt rate in Ireland lately? It seems to me your head if firmly buried in the sand, or is it up your own a..0 -
Your either a public sector working looking for a wind up by posing as an IT worker in private sector or the most arrogant f##ker i've ever had the displeasure of coming across. A typical product of the boom actually is someone who thinks they can just jump from 1 job to another getting pay increases and then claim to have had some kinda grand plan and pat themslves on the back for getting a pay increase that they probably don't deserve doing a job they are not good enough to do, I've seen plenty who have done very well from this technique and ended up in positions they should never be in getting paid more than they're ever worth. The arrogance that you show by assuming that most people don't have a good idea of how they'd like their career path to develop is staggering.
Just so you know i'm in the finance sector on a good salary, don't really care what you or anyone else earns. I do care however about the huge public sector wage bill which is destroying this country
Just as a matter of interest have you heard that Ireland is in a recession? Do you know what that actualy means? Have you seen the unemployemnt rate in Ireland lately? It seems to me your head if firmly buried in the sand, or is it up your own a..
Throwing accusations around is very childish dont you think. "Oh, you must be this and that because you dont agree with me." Grow up a bit there.
Is it because you cant read my posts or are just not reading what im saying?
As a matter of interest, have you had a pay cut? Do you have a pension? I bet the answers are No and Yes to those ones.
Im not disputing that people are unemployed. I am disputing the fact that most people who are skilled in the private sector have suffered pay cuts or been unemployed. And yet we hear people complaining of wage cuts in the private sector all the time. Where are those people? Its all a friend of a friend and someone in the pub has a pay cut.
Why dont you shut me up then. Show us the stats on those people who are on the dole for any period of time.
Prove that they are skilled workers. I'll bet that they are mostly construction workers and low/un skilled workers. The people who would not even get a job in most places where skills are needed. Yes, these people are valuable to the economy. but valuable in that they are hired and fired very easily, to suit the economic landscape. If they want to get out of that then they have only themselves to look to. Only they can increase their job prospects. Crying about it all day wont help them. And certainly going crying that others are getting too much wont help them either. Spend more time on your own career will help, instead of spending it crying that others are paid too much.
The rest of the private sector is doing just fine im happy to report.0 -
`Calm down Wiley1. As the poster said, some people are hardworking and excellent and some are complete wasters. "The System" allows these wasters to survive whereas everyone would be happy if these people were weeded out.
It is just too easy to bash the public sector. Sorry, but it is.
Don't a lot of public sector workers get paid for 30 mins on a Saturday for "cashing their pay cheque" even though their salaries go directly into their bank accounts?
What about the moving from the Health Boards to the HSE and not a single job was lost.
It is these little things that make it difficult for those people in the private sector who work extremely hard and are brilliant workers but still end up losing their jobs or suffering pay decreases.
If you can defend and justify these little things, then fair play, I would hope most people will listen honestly and those who don't - forget them - they don't know anything anyways.
I have said this from the first moment, weed out the lazy no good lads and advertise their jobs...I fully agree. REFORM THE PUBLIC SECTOR!!
The council I work in have recently cut back budgets massively, moved staff to cancel having to pay for office space, over 140 temp/contract staff have been let go, Machinery yards closed down, all IT systems in place are money saving measures. It's not like the public sector are not trying in certain aspects.
All the old rules like half an hour on a Saturday to cash cheques and drivers being paid for opening gates and all that is being wiped out. they are old rules and times are changing, it won't happen over night.
I'm sick to the eye teeth of private sector workers slating the public sector when they "hear" about people getting this and getting that, Ah Jees this country is full of begrudgers, times are changing but attitudes and practices aren't. Move the hell on or get out of the way...0 -
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But we're getting off the point. So far we have about 3 or 4 skilled private sector workers who have lost jobs or have had pay cuts forced on them. Its not many is it. And yet most of us private sector workers will complain that we are suffering in the recession. But we're not really. Just a few of us are. And that our own faults.
Perhaps you didn't notice in April that your PAYE increased substantially, I know mine did by several hundred EUR a month in fact, now where is this increased tax going? Thats right it is being used to finance the public sector, never mind all the private sector who have lost their jobs. you keep asking about skilled and unskilled, how about asking how many publice sector full time jobs have been lost, why aren't you asking that. For you to say the private sector isn't suffering proves your nothing more than a joker0 -
Is it because you cant read my posts or are just not reading what im saying?
Im not disputing that people are unemployed. I am disputing the fact that most people who are skilled in the private sector have suffered pay cuts or been unemployed. And yet we hear people complaining of wage cuts in the private sector all the time. Where are those people? Its all a friend of a friend and someone in the pub has a pay cut.
Why dont you shut me up then. Show us the stats on those people who are on the dole for any period of time.
Prove that they are skilled workers. I'll bet that they are mostly construction workers and low/un skilled workers. The people who would not even get a job in most places where skills are needed. Yes, these people are valuable to the economy. but valuable in that they are hired and fired very easily, to suit the economic landscape. If they want to get out of that then they have only themselves to look to. Only they can increase their job prospects. Crying about it all day wont help them.
The rest of the private sector is doing just fine im happy to report.
I am not disagreeing with you on the low/unskilled people being the worst affected. And that, in some cases, they are the only ones who can REALLY help themselves...
But, I will tell you that I do have direct friends and relatives, with honours degrees (2 in one case) that are now on a 3 day week, or unemployed.
The degrees are Civil engineering from Trinity, BESS from Trinity and Law from Trinity.
This mess is affecting us ALL... and we should all feel the same level of discomfort (or at least a proportionate amount)
If the next budget is a cowards budget (which I bet it will be).. they will increase tax yet again... this is totally counter-productive.. those in employment require expendable/disposable income, so as to create jobs for the rest. It's called trickle-down.. and does work.. despite what the socialists say!0 -
I wasn't sitting on an assembly line making stuffed toys love (no disrespect to anyone who is/was), I mean the highly skilled engineering aspects of producing silicon wafers that will eventually become microchips. This stuff isn't just moving to china you know, it's just suffering a depression and that's worldwide-even in the US mother plants it's tough as old boots to find work. It's not a cost thing, it's the fact that there's not enough work out there for the existing engineers unless they are totally flexible wrt where in the world they work. IT is much more flexible, so you're lucky, be grateful.I never said there wasnt a need for manufacturing. There will always be people to do it when needed. And they will do it cheaper than you.
Yes I'm degree qualified in electronic engineering.What about yourself?
You sure you're not a PS employee on the wind up?But we're getting off the point. So far we have about 3 or 4 skilled private sector workers who have lost jobs or have had pay cuts forced on them. Its not many is it. And yet most of us private sector workers will complain that we are suffering in the recession. But we're not really. Just a few of us are. And that our own faults.
Eventually by the way, if the economy continues to implode, you will be affected, as your firm will have no customers able to pay for its services. Unless you are PS in which case your employer will just borrow your salary from future generations of irish people ;-)0 -
Perhaps you didn't notice in April that your PAYE increased substantially, I know mine did by several hundred EUR a month in fact, now where is this increased tax going? Thats right it is being used to finance the public sector, never mind all the private sector who have lost their jobs. you keep asking about skilled and unskilled, how about asking how many publice sector full time jobs have been lost, why aren't you asking that. For you to say the private sector isn't suffering proves your nothing more than a joker
PAYE is also paid by the staff working for the public sector in case you hadn't factored that one in, it's not a private sector discrimination, you're letting this bother you too much, the public sector has to function one way or the other.
Not all private sector taxes pay the lazy public sector workers,0 -
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I'm sick to the eye teeth of private sector workers slating the public sector when they "hear" about people getting this and getting that, Ah Jees this country is full of begrudgers, times are changing but attitudes and practices aren't. Move the hell on or get out of the way...
You know I agree with you on amost all of this issue Wiley... but be careful of using the term begrudger. The biggest begrudgers in Ireland are the socialists (union bosses.. Beggs, O'Conner..)... and who do they represent.
The only thing i 'begrudge' is paying a public sector wage bill where a number of the workers are work-dodgers... and the wgaes are ridiculously high!0 -
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Perhaps you didn't notice in April that your PAYE increased substantially, I know mine did by several hundred EUR a month in fact, now where is this increased tax going? Thats right it is being used to finance the public sector, never mind all the private sector who have lost their jobs. you keep asking about skilled and unskilled, how about asking how many publice sector full time jobs have been lost, why aren't you asking that. For you to say the private sector isn't suffering proves your nothing more than a joker
Yes, everybodies (earning above a certain amount) tax increased, including the public sector (who also had extra levies). Thats the tax system for you. And there should be further tax increases.
Whats your point. That OTHERS should suffer the tax burden an not us?
AGAIN .... My point is not about the public sector. Its that these wage cuts that everyone is saying are happening in the private sector are not widespread at all. For you to keep missing the point, and changing the subject here, shows that you are the joker.0 -
But you accept that regardless of the reason, the exchequer returns are showing a 20 odd billion Euro shortfall and this needs to be addressed by way of PS cost cuts? (mainly wages as this is where most of the PS expenditure goes)Yes, everybodies (earning above a certain amount) tax increased, including the public sector (who also had extra levies). Thats the tax system for you. And there should be further tax increases.
Whats your point. That OTHERS should suffer the tax burden an not us?
AGAIN .... My point is not about the public sector. Its that these wage cuts that everyone is saying are happening in the private sector are not widespread at all. For you to keep missing the point, and changing the subject here, shows that you are the joker.0 -
Throwing accusations around is very childish dont you think. "Oh, you must be this and that because you dont agree with me." Grow up a bit there.
Is it because you cant read my posts or are just not reading what im saying?
As a matter of interest, have you had a pay cut? Do you have a pension? I bet the answers are No and Yes to those ones .I think its a little unfair of you to say that its only unskilled who are taking pay cuts just because it hasn't effected you and your wife. I also haven't had a pay cut (pay increase as i changed jobs actually) but i'm not ignorant enough to believe that the private sector isn't in real trouble.
Had you taken the time to read my posts properly, only 3 pages previous you will have seen that I increased my salary by changing jobs this year, how does that fit into your career planning mentality??
The rest of the private sector is doing just fine im happy to report.
Are you for real?? hold on lads get the champers out, recession over because gdael says the private sector is doing just fine. your in cuckoo land, all over the country businesses are letting people go, falling behind with debts because of liquidity probelms, hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs in last 18 months, everywhere you look the private sector is on its knees, agriculture, manufacturing, construction, hotels, the list goes on and on, are you blind to this or do the ivory towers in the IFSC not let you see whats happening in the real world0 -
PAYE is also paid by the staff working for the public sector in case you hadn't factored that one in, it's not a private sector discrimination, you're letting this bother you too much, the public sector has to function one way or the other.
Not all private sector taxes pay the lazy public sector workers,
In this instance gdae was saying that the private sector was virtually unaffected by the recession, i was saying this was untrue as we have all taken a tax hit, which is used to pay the PS good, bad or indifferent.0 -
But you accept that regardless of the reason, the exchequer returns are showing a 20 odd billion Euro shortfall and this needs to be addressed by way of PS cost cuts? (mainly wages as this is where most of the PS expenditure goes)
I agree. But i'll go further. Public sector reform is not going to fix it on its own. Like it or not there is a requirement for us all to help out more. More taxes. Cant be helped. Chasing only the public sector is just pulling the wool over your own eyes. It wont be near enough.0 -
In this instance gdae was saying that the private sector was virtually unaffected by the recession, i was saying this was untrue as we have all taken a tax hit, which is used to pay the PS good, bad or indifferent.
Obviously there is no point arguing with you. You are like the child with their fingers in their ears.
Show us the stats on the types of jobs lost or with pay cuts in the last year. I bet you cant.0 -
Tax hikes will stagnate the private sector, the sector that needs the most stimulus (public sector generates no actual wealth for Ireland, despite being needed).I agree. But i'll go further. Public sector reform is not going to fix it on its own. Like it or not there is a requirement for us all to help out more. More taxes. Cant be helped. Chasing only the public sector is just pulling the wool over your own eyes. It wont be near enough.
The main problem is not tax rates, it's pay rates. When the taxes were there, the (high) wages could be paid. Now the taxes are gone, the wages have to be reduced to match.
I would advocate at most a moderate tax hike but severe cuts to the PS wage bill.
Edit: remember we only need to get back to c. 2004 levels of spending on the PS to break even with the current tax returns! That is easily achievable if the government has the bottle.0 -
Tax hikes will stagnate the private sector, the sector that needs the most stimulus (public sector generates no actual wealth for Ireland, despite being needed).
The main problem is not tax rates, it's pay rates. When the taxes were there, the (high) wages could be paid. Now the taxes are gone, the wages have to be reduced to match.
I would advocate at most a moderate tax hike but severe cuts to the PS wage bill.
Edit: remember we only need to get back to c. 2004 levels of spending on the PS to break even with the current tax returns! That is easily achievable if the government has the bottle.
Private sector has not reduced its charges and its wage levels are still high. I can manage a pay cut-once your charges come down. We are still being screwed with crèche fees. Not much of a market there. Brian Cowen must love you and your obsession with public sector pay. I have noticed you mainly post on this issue! There has to be reductions in Childcare and our health sys must work. No point brining us back to 2004- both were still too high then.0 -
Private sector has not reduced its charges and its wage levels are still high.
I believe that average pay in the private sector has fallen. Of course it would fall with any increase in unemplyment anyway, but it has fallen for people employed too.
Here is aleft wing analysis of low levels of pay in the Irish private sector.0 -
Badboy1977 wrote: »Private sector has not reduced its charges and its wage levels are still high. I can manage a pay cut-once your charges come down. We are still being screwed with crèche fees. Not much of a market there. Brian Cowen must love you and your obsession with public sector pay. I have noticed you mainly post on this issue! There has to be reductions in Childcare and our health sys must work. No point brining us back to 2004- both were still too high then.
if you want our health service to work then support the sacking of surplus to requirement pen pushers in the HSE , make this clear to your unions who back theese spare pricks to the hilt0 -
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Every job lost (how many hundred thousand now?) in the private sector is a 100% pay cut! In addition, how can you say a shop assistant on minimum wage is on a "high wage"? Any public servants on minimum wage? Nope. The cost of living is actually falling too! ;-)Badboy1977 wrote: »Private sector has not reduced its charges and its wage levels are still high.
See above. They aren't "my" charges either, just the cost of living. PRivate sector staff have to pay the same prices, we don't get a "staff discount" lol!Badboy1977 wrote: »I can manage a pay cut-once your charges come down.
In my 6 or 7 thousand posts. Did you check them all? You'll find that's b0ll0cks if you do.Badboy1977 wrote: »We are still being screwed with crèche fees. Not much of a market there. Brian Cowen must love you and your obsession with public sector pay. I have noticed you mainly post on this issue!
2004 overall expenditure was around our current tax receipts. That's all we need to get down to to break even.Badboy1977 wrote: »There has to be reductions in Childcare and our health sys must work. No point brining us back to 2004- both were still too high then.
Ireland Inc is not wealthy enough to sustain you (or any PAYE worker) in the fashion to which you have become accustomed I'm afraid. A lowering of your (and everyone's) standard of living is now unavoidable.0 -
Enough of the accusations of others being on a wind-up etc.
If you have problems with a post, report it. Either which way, treat posters with respect, regardless of your opinion of their post(s).0 -
Badboy1977 wrote: »Private sector has not reduced its charges and its wage levels are still high. I can manage a pay cut-once your charges come down. We are still being screwed with crèche fees. Not much of a market there. Brian Cowen must love you and your obsession with public sector pay. I have noticed you mainly post on this issue! There has to be reductions in Childcare and our health sys must work. No point brining us back to 2004- both were still too high then.
Do some simple calculations on how much you payt in childcare, against the amount of staff in the creche... if they are to turn ANY profit.. those people must only make minimum wage.. and they do a tough job..
Do you think the minimum wage should come down too?
I personally do NOT want to see Public Sector pay cuts. I want to see benefits removed, and the dead wood, useless middle management purged! That will save us more... even if they do all sign on.0 -
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A number of points-the Mercer report showed only 8% of companies in Private Sector took a Pay cut. It prob is higher but hard to obtain accurate figures.
Yes-obviously if you lost your job -that's a cut but the vast majority of Private sector workers have not taken a cut.
Someone mentioned lack of profitability in Crèches as a cause of their high costs-why can they charge so much less in other EU nations?
Why do Private sector GPs still charge rip off prices ?
I could go on and on. Both sectors-Public and Private rely on each other and both our costs are determined by each other.
I think given our poor state finances-another pay cut is inevitable but Im still inclined towards some Industrial action. Why? Because knowing quite a bit about Employer/employee relations (having worked in both sectors)-you have to show you have balls otherwise they will mess up the Education sys and create one like the mess in the UK.
The battle over pay cuts is prob already lost but the real fight goes on!0 -
Yes-obviously if you lost your job -that's a cut but the vast majority of Private sector workers have not taken a cut.
It doesnt matter if the reduction in wage costs per organisation were caused by layoffs, or by a reduction in wages. These are still savings. So if company ACME needs to reduce labour costs by 20% it has to do it with either layoffs, wage reductions, or a mixture of both. If there were no layoffs the only option is paycuts across the board.
The Government is in the same position as a private sector employer who has to make savings on labour costs except there is no way to lay people off. So by necessity it has to be wage cuts. If you don't want that you could have different options - last in first out etc. Talk to your union.Why do Private sector GPs still charge rip off prices ?
GP's are a cartel but that is a different argument.0 -
It doesnt matter if the reduction in wage costs per organisation were caused by layoffs, or by a reduction in wages. These are still savings. So if company ACME needs to reduce labour costs by 20% it has to do it with either layoffs, wage reductions, or a mixture of both. If there were no layoffs the only option is paycuts across the board.
The Government is in the same position as a private sector employer who has to make savings on labour costs except there is no way to lay people off. So by necessity it has to be wage cuts. If you don't want that you could have different options - last in first out etc. Talk to your union.
GP's are a cartel but that is a different argument.
they are indeed a cartel , lets say you are registered with the local surger in kilcock but are not happy with the doctor there , so you decide to contact the GP across the border in summerhill in county meath , guess what , the doctor in summerhill wont see you , doctors dont rob each others patients , they have an unwritten contract between them and do not compete with each other for business0 -
they are indeed a cartel , lets say you are registered with the local surger in kilcock but are not happy with the doctor there , so you decide to contact the GP across the border in summerhill in county meath , guess what , the doctor in summerhill wont see you , doctors dont rob each others patients , they have an unwritten contract between them and do not compete with each other for business
No they dont. I have changed doctor about 3 times in the last 3 years, because the first one nearly killed me. And the second was never there, i always got the inexperienced guy when i went to see him. The one i am with now gives you a proper check up when you go. None of this getting you out in a couple of minutes and taking €50.0 -
Im not disputing that people are unemployed. I am disputing the fact that most people who are skilled in the private sector have suffered pay cuts or been unemployed. And yet we hear people complaining of wage cuts in the private sector all the time. Where are those people? Its all a friend of a friend and someone in the pub has a pay cut.
(............)The rest of the private sector is doing just fine im happy to report.
So what about those job losses and wage cuts they've been reporting on the news?0 -
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