Public sector pay: the wrong debate

cyclopath2001

asdasd wrote: »

The same with any asset. NAMA is a subsidy for the householder as much as any developer, or bank share holder.

If a householder sells their house, they will either have to rent or buy another one, so NAMA is of no benefit unless they're emigrating.

Badboy1977

amen wrote: »

I was recently told by a politican that there are over 10,000 admin staff in the Dept of Education. Anyone know if this is true and if so what do they do all day?

Its a nonsense figure. I think total Civil service(which staffs Departments) is under 30 thousand(as opposed to Public servants which are another category and made up of teachers,nurses etc. so its unlikely that a third of them plus are in Education. Anyway, I said Education Sector. School are not overstaffed or over administered. Whatever about teacher pay this is an accepted fact about staffing.

optocynic

gdael wrote: »

I'll say it again, for the 10th time. Show us the skilled workers who have lost their jobs and not been able to get new ones. Or the skilled workers who have had to suffer wage cuts. Where are they?

Solicitors, down an avergae of 20% in pay in two firms I know of. The Legal Sectretaries in those firms are down 22.5% now since this time last year too.
Are they skilled enough for you?

MrMicra

taidghbaby wrote: »

maybe we should outsource the public service to India then?

Why not? Why not, for example, identify work which can be done in low wage economies and move that work there?

Why not, for example, open a prison in Morocco rather than in Thornton hall? Wage costs (for the prison guards) at any rate would be far lower.

MrMicra

stevoman wrote: »

Im a civil servant 10 years and i now make €492 take home each week. i have a mortgage, a child and a partner out of work. Not exactly raking it in after 10 years in the one job. took me this long to get to this point.

EUR 492 take home or about EUR 48000 before taxes and levies. You are raking it in.

asdasd

EUR 492 take home or about EUR 48000 before taxes and levies. You are raking it in.

Pretty sure that is a miscalculation. It is 25584 after tax. Depending on what tax free allowances he is getting I cant see him paying 47% tax averall. Thats no even the marginal rate.

Wiley1

MrMicra wrote: »

EUR 492 take home or about EUR 48000 before taxes and levies. You are raking it in.

"BEFORE" Tax and Levies with child, mortgage and partner out of work, Come on Mr Micra, you're not that against the public sector average Joe workers are ye?

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

Solicitors, down an avergae of 20% in pay in two firms I know of. The Legal Sectretaries in those firms are down 22.5% now since this time last year too.
Are they skilled enough for you?

Solicitors make too much anyway, It's the legal secretaries that should get the money, they seem to do all the work any time I have had to use one, and the whole system is set up so that you can't avoid paying them.
Inheritance, Seperation, Buying property, Etc Etc Etc....

I have absolutely no sympathy for them.

murphaph

PS workers make too much anyway and the whole system is set up so that you can't avoid paying them. PAYE, PRSI, VAT, VRT, Road Tax, Excise Duty.....


I have absolutely no sympathy for them.

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

PS workers make too much anyway

And the private sector is raking it in through huge mortgage repayments.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

And the private sector is raking it in through huge mortgage repayments.

You don't seem to understand how banking works.

The bank takes deposits of people (and also borrows money itself on wholesale markets) and lends it to you to do as you wish.

You wished to buy an overpriced house and so the bank not wanting to tell you how to run your life and at the same time wanting to make a profit, lent you the money for your house.

YOU gave that money to the vendor (possibly a developer but more likely just another private citizen who was selling their house). The vendor now has your money and that transaction is over and done with.

Now the bank just wants the money they gave to you, back, with a little (and it is a VERY competitive market in Ireland with some of the cheapest mortgages in Europe) interest so they can actually make a profit for their service (lending you the money you asked for).

So the private sector is not still "raking it in". The banks need repaying because that money doesn't belong to them-it belongs to their depositors (they shouldn't lose out should they?) and their creditors. The bank is just an institution to put people who want to lend and people who want to borrow, together. The depositors and creditors of the bank are entitled to their money back, plus interest for lending it.

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

You don't seem to understand how banking works.

Do you know how a just and fair society works?

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

Do you know how a just and fair society works?

Do you? You want the rest of us to bail you out of negative equity.

ardmacha

As a contribution to the debate

IBEC
http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/ibec003/category/1087

"Just over a fifth of employers have implemented pay reductions"

contrast that with the public sector where 100% of employees have had pay reductions.

No doubt some of these reductions have been larger than the public sector reductions but only a fifth of people have experienced them.

anonymous_joe

ardmacha wrote: »

As a contribution to the debate

IBEC
http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/ibec003/category/1087

"Just over a fifth of employers have implemented pay reductions"

contrast that with the public sector where 100% of employees have had pay reductions.

No doubt some of these reductions have been larger than the public sector reductions but only a fifth of people have experienced them.

What about all those who've been made redundant? Do those count as wage cuts?

axer

ardmacha wrote: »

As a contribution to the debate

IBEC
http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/ibec003/category/1087

"Just over a fifth of employers have implemented pay reductions"

contrast that with the public sector where 100% of employees have had pay reductions.

No doubt some of these reductions have been larger than the public sector reductions but only a fifth of people have experienced them.

If you give me 25% more than you and then take away 5% I will be still a happy man.

hallelujajordan

This is really a very simple debate and all of this talk of property, banks, NAMA's and the like is just distorting what is a very simple equation . .

There are 2 pieces of data that are of importance here . .

1. The Government is bringing in over 400M less than it is spending per week
2. Public sector salaries are at least 10% more than the private sector, at most 40% depending on whose data you believe.

Those in the public sector are very quick to compare nurses with solicitors or firemen with company directors, but lets look at the real data. The ESRI report shows that the difference between public and private sectors is most significant in the lower paid ranks.

We have to fix the deficit above and to do that we have 3 options :

1. Raise taxes to somewhere in the region of 70% (thereby sharing the burden across the state and maintaining the difference between public and private sector)
2. Cut social welfare payments and make the most vulnerable in society pay to maintain the difference between public and private sector rates
3. Address the salaries within the public sector, bring them down to a level that is comparable with the Irish private sector and with the public sectors in other European economies

It really is that simple !!

I work in the private sector; If my organisation reaches a point where it is taking in less money than it is paying out then one of two things will happen. I and others around me will take a pay cut, the order of which will be determined by my employer based on what he can afford or I will lose my job like the 165,000 people that have already lost their job in the private sector. The market adjusts in times of recession; Why should we drive the company (Ireland inc.) to bankruptcy in order to maintain a salary differential that makes no sense whatsoever ???

Yittisay

well put jordan

NewDubliner

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Certainly it is, when you leave out facts that are inconvenient for you.

Yittisay

public sector screamed about benchmarking on way up, now time to see how it works in it entirity

NewDubliner

Yittisay wrote: »

public sector screamed about benchmarking on way up, now time to see how it works in it entirity

How about some free-market adjustment for the banks and property market?

optocynic

NewDubliner wrote: »

How about some free-market adjustment for the banks and property market?

Are you still harping on about your mortgage... looking for a bail-out.
The banks loaned you the money to buy your home. You asked them for it. Hence, you should pay back what is owed.

I'm in the same boat. I'm not whinging about having to pay back a mortgage on a house I bought 2 years ago!

This debate is about the Public Sector and their inflated salaries.
We no longer have the money.. so cuts are needed.

What is your solution?

hallelujajordan

NewDubliner wrote: »

Certainly it is, when you leave out facts that are inconvenient for you.

What facts ? The whole point is that it really is that simple. We can argue until the cows come home about how and why we got there. We can blame the banks, the governments, the property developers (personally, I blame greedy consumerism . . we all got a taste of the high life and wanted a little more). The debate should happen so that we can learn from our mistakes and put the right governance structures in place so it doesn't happen again but based on where we are today none of this matters

All that matters is correcting the economic deficit as quickly as possible. If you have some other suggestions about how to do that, lets hear them . . .

optocynic

hallelujajordan wrote: »

What facts ? The whole point is that it really is that simple. We can argue until the cows come home about how and why we got there. We can blame the banks, the governments, the property developers (personally, I blame greedy consumerism . . we all got a taste of the high life and wanted a little more). The debate should happen so that we can learn from our mistakes and put the right governance structures in place so it doesn't happen again but based on where we are today none of this matters

All that matters is correcting the economic deficit as quickly as possible. If you have some other suggestions about how to do that, lets hear them . . .

You will find that the Public Sector guys on this board (most of them anyway) just want to partake in some childish 'blame-storming'...

There are NO rational alternatives from them. I would like to know where they think the money to pay them is going to come from?

gurramok

optocynic wrote: »

You will find that the Public Sector guys on this board (most of them anyway) just want to partake in some childish 'blame-storming'...

There are NO rational alternatives from them. I would like to know where they think the money to pay them is going to come from?

Pile it onto the National Debt?

Its the 80s all over again and we know what happened there!

Wiley1

murphaph wrote: »

PS workers make too much anyway and the whole system is set up so that you can't avoid paying them. PAYE, PRSI, VAT, VRT, Road Tax, Excise Duty.....


I have absolutely no sympathy for them.

Simple solution for you, Emmigrate and stop whinging, why didn't you apply for one of the thousands of public sector jobs that were advertised over the last 10 years in the national press.

I have no symapthy for you. :rolleyes:

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

You will find that the Public Sector guys on this board (most of them anyway) just want to partake in some childish 'blame-storming'...

There are NO rational alternatives from them. I would like to know where they think the money to pay them is going to come from?

There's that generalisation again, Public sector guys are clamming up and not allowing for change. WRONG !!!!

Here's one for you, 2 FF polititians based in Meath getting over €250k in public money in the form of expenses and don't even have to have receipts. When this public spending is address i.e start at the top and work down, then see what other alternatives are available to save public money. And we pay PRSI, Widows & Orphans, Pension Levvy, PAYE, VAT, Raod Tax, Stamp duty and all the rest just like the rest of you...

This thread is a nowhere zone because no one is listening to eachother and who in power will read it and change anything.....Meh!!!

hallelujajordan

Wiley1 wrote: »

There's that generalisation again, Public sector guys are clamming up and not allowing for change. WRONG !!!!

Here's one for you, 2 FF polititians based in Meath getting over €250k in public money in the form of expenses and don't even have to have receipts. When this public spending is address i.e start at the top and work down, then see what other alternatives are available to save public money. And we pay PRSI, Widows & Orphans, Pension Levvy, PAYE, VAT, Raod Tax, Stamp duty and all the rest just like the rest of you...

This thread is a nowhere zone because no one is listening to eachother and who in power will read it and change anything.....Meh!!!

1. The 2 FF politicians you talk about fall into the category of Public Sector workers and like all of the public sector are overpaid relative to their equivalents in the private sector. There are lots of moves to correct all of the nonsense around expenses etc and while I would have liked to have seen O'Donoghue forced out of office as an example of what needs to happen, I am confident that Lenihan will bring about real reform in this area.
2. The money that you will save by reforming public sector expenses (and as the Fas debacle shows, this is a much deeper issue than just the politicians) is a pimple on the arse of the deficit that exists in the public finances. Yes, it needs to happen and it needs to happen quickly but it doesn't detract from the need to bring about much larger cost savings within public sector salaries
3. We all pay taxes that you mention above; we all contribute to society. The difference is that you in the public service have a higher starting point (somewhere between 10 and 40% depending on who you believe) and we no longer have the public finances to maintain this higher starting point

I agree, this debate will get nowhere until the public sector accepts that real salary reform is needed to correct the public finances . . Not instead of expenses reform etc but as well as. I doubt this will happen and I predict that the unions, who held the country to ransom with "partnership" agreements over the past 10 years will do so again as they are threatening and we will have wide scale strikes. However, I urge caution . . strikes only ever work if they have public support. .

Yittisay

wiley1,

you cant build a successful economy on public sector, it's that sort of lazy attitude we need to get rid of, we need to encourage and create incentives for people to get out there and start businesses. we need to put and end to the days of people going for soft option and getting overpaid for it - if people want handy numbers lety them be paid accordingly (not sayin all public sector jobs handy of course). and btw, if i had applied for of of the many many public sector jobs that were advertised over the last few years, i would expect my pay to come down in line with the rest of the economy, not to mention those who dont have jobs any more.

dubliner1,

i too have a large mortgage and like a previous poster i dont expect sympathy cos i paid too much for my house, i have to get on with it. i was gullible too in the midst of the property rise.

in terms of free market adjustment, our participation in the euro is the only thing seperating us and likes of Iceland who are bankrupt. as an economy we're gettin a heavy discount on the borrowings we're making from ECB. if we had to go to the independant international capital markets for it all we'd be paying rates akin to eastern european countiresa dn possibly worse

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

There's that generalisation again, Public sector guys are clamming up and not allowing for change. WRONG !!!!

Here's one for you, 2 FF polititians based in Meath getting over €250k in public money in the form of expenses and don't even have to have receipts. When this public spending is address i.e start at the top and work down, then see what other alternatives are available to save public money. And we pay PRSI, Widows & Orphans, Pension Levvy, PAYE, VAT, Raod Tax, Stamp duty and all the rest just like the rest of you...

This thread is a nowhere zone because no one is listening to eachother and who in power will read it and change anything.....Meh!!!

I was going to reply, but Jordan said it all.
I am on your side here too Wiley. You are a skilled college graduate, and are earning far too little. But the expenses crap is a smoke-screen!..

And for the last time... The Pension Levy is not a pay cut. You are contributing to your pension, like the rest of us in the private sector!
If I start to contribute to a pension, do you call that a pay cut?