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Public sector pay: the wrong debate
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You will find that the Public Sector guys on this board (most of them anyway) just want to partake in some childish 'blame-storming'...
There are NO rational alternatives from them. I would like to know where they think the money to pay them is going to come from?
Another alternative for you would be that the public sector stop subsidising the recycle centres and bottle banks and let the cost pass on to the end user in the street. That will save millions across all the local authorities, (I've seen figures for a LA). Using them and paying for them is still cheaper than private company bin charges.
e.g Every car that goes into a recycle centre (Meath) costs €4 to the council, €2 of this is paid by the public Joe coming in and €2 is paid by the local authority, Average visitors in one the largest recycle centres is 2000 per months, so that's 2000 X €2 X 12 Months = €48,000. Every county has an average of 4 centres across the country, do the math and tell me that's not an alternative, yes it's a step backwards but the service will still be available.0 -
Another alternative for you would be that the public sector stop subsidising the recycle centres and bottle banks and let the cost pass on to the end user in the street. That will save millions across all the local authorities, (I've seen figures for a LA). Using them and paying for them is still cheaper than private company bin charges.
e.g Every car that goes into a recycle centre (Meath) costs €4 to the council, €2 of this is paid by the public Joe coming in and €2 is paid by the local authority, Average visitors in one the largest recycle centres is 2000 per months, so that's 2000 X €2 X 12 Months = €48,000. Every county has an average of 4 centres across the country, do the math and tell me that's not an alternative, yes it's a step backwards but the service will still be available.
That's a drop in the ocean. We are talking about 20bn here.
How about all govenment expenditure to system integrators such as accenture stops.. until economic recovery.
Us in the technology sector know Accenture are good... but they are also expensive?.. And how much of these projects could be done in house?0 -
I was going to reply, but Jordan said it all.
I am on your side here too Wiley. You are a skilled college graduate, and are earning far too little. But the expenses crap is a smoke-screen!..
And for the last time... The Pension Levy is not a pay cut. You are contributing to your pension, like the rest of us in the private sector!
If I start to contribute to a pension, do you call that a pay cut?
I consider it a pay cut because I am down expendible income, I understand it's going toward my pension but before the Levy was introduced I would still be entitled to my pension after working all my life, If you are in the private sector and don't my for a pension for yourself you are still entitled to a state pension are you not?
I e-mail one of the polititians in question about his policies and expenses and i was basically told to f*ck and stop whinging.
All new councillors elected at local elections recieve a lovely new Dell laptop worth €1000, yet they won't allow the monthly meeting agenda to be e-mailed to them it has to be printed using thousands of pages a year, and i mean thousands. It's no smoke screen, it's real, Address this spending and see how much is saved.
I have alternatives all day for you but i don't think anyone will be happy unless they see public sector pay cuts....it's dog in a manger mentality.0 -
I consider it a pay cut because I am down expendible income, I understand it's going toward my pension but before the Levy was introduced I would still be entitled to my pension after working all my life, If you are in the private sector and don't my for a pension for yourself you are still entitled to a state pension are you not?
I e-mail one of the polititians in question about his policies and expenses and i was basically told to f*ck and stop whinging.
All new councillors elected at local elections recieve a lovely new Dell laptop worth €1000, yet they won't allow the monthly meeting agenda to be e-mailed to them it has to be printed using thousands of pages a year, and i mean thousands. It's no smoke screen, it's real, Address this spending and see how much is saved.
I have alternatives all day for you but i don't think anyone will be happy unless they see public sector pay cuts....it's dog in a manger mentality.
The pension levy was, in my opinion, the removal of a very nice perk!
As for the pay cuts in the Public sector. I would be happy to see increases in some areas... Nurses for example.. but pay cuts would be utterly useless... I want to see job cuts... useless buraucrats gone.. streamline the sector. Make it efficient. Run it like a productive business. Basically, I am asking for performance and accountability in all areas and levels!
I want value for my huge taxes. I'm pretty sure we are all entitled to it!0 -
Another alternative for you would be that the public sector stop subsidising the recycle centres and bottle banks and let the cost pass on to the end user in the street. That will save millions across all the local authorities, (I've seen figures for a LA). Using them and paying for them is still cheaper than private company bin charges.
e.g Every car that goes into a recycle centre (Meath) costs €4 to the council, €2 of this is paid by the public Joe coming in and €2 is paid by the local authority, Average visitors in one the largest recycle centres is 2000 per months, so that's 2000 X €2 X 12 Months = €48,000. Every county has an average of 4 centres across the country, do the math and tell me that's not an alternative, yes it's a step backwards but the service will still be available.
I'm lovin it !!!!
Let the environment pay to maintain a nonsensical, unrealistic difference between public sector pay and private sector pay . . Heck, who cares about the planet. . we are only on it for an average of about 80 years so lets let the next generation deal with that !!
Seriously, get real ! There are lots of mechanisms in place already to cover the cost of recycling packaging (eg. www.repak.ie ) and generally the money comes from the consumer already . . Your idea will do nothing other than to disincentivise recycling !If you are in the private sector and don't my for a pension for yourself you are still entitled to a state pension are you not?
Seriously, you lose credibility with this kind of statement. . Of course every citizen is entitled to a state pension; otherwise what do we do . . dis-own the elderly. However the difference between the state pension and the public sector pension is ginormous. . and the 7% you are paying is only a fraction of what it is costing the state. .
I'm starting to believe that the Public sector have had it so well, for so long that they don't even realise how well paid they are !0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »This is really a very simple debate and all of this talk of property, banks, NAMA's and the like is just distorting what is a very simple equation . .
There are 2 pieces of data that are of importance here . .- The Government is bringing in over 400M less than it is spending per week
- Public sector salaries are at least 10% more than the private sector, at most 40% depending on whose data you believe.
We have to fix the deficit above and to do that we have 3 options :- Raise taxes to somewhere in the region of 70% (thereby sharing the burden across the state and maintaining the difference between public and private sector)
- Cut social welfare payments and make the most vulnerable in society pay to maintain the difference between public and private sector rates
- Address the salaries within the public sector, bring them down to a level that is comparable with the Irish private sector and with the public sectors in other European economies
I work in the private sector; If my organisation reaches a point where it is taking in less money than it is paying out then one of two things will happen. I and others around me will take a pay cut, the order of which will be determined by my employer based on what he can afford or I will lose my job like the 165,000 people that have already lost their job in the private sector. The market adjusts in times of recession; Why should we drive the company (Ireland inc.) to bankruptcy in order to maintain a salary differential that makes no sense whatsoever ???
Excellent post, which sums it up very well0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »What facts ? The whole point is that it really is that simple. We can argue until the cows come home about how and why we got there. We can blame the banks, the governments, the property developers (personally, I blame greedy consumerism . . we all got a taste of the high life and wanted a little more). The debate should happen so that we can learn from our mistakes and put the right governance structures in place so it doesn't happen again but based on where we are today none of this matters
All that matters is correcting the economic deficit as quickly as possible. If you have some other suggestions about how to do that, lets hear them . . .
Wow you are on fire today Jordan, another excellent post.
Agree completly with this line by the way (personally, I blame greedy consumerism . . we all got a taste of the high life and wanted a little more). and its about time everyone stood up and acknowledged this0 -
pension levy is a conrtibution to your own pension, it is something that was long overdue.
we now need to tackle the fact that public sector have defined benefit pensions, if the last few years have thought us anything it is that there are on certinaties in life and certainly not in finance. The idea that you can be guaranteed a pension based on what you will be earning at retirement is ambituous in the extreme. the public sector needs to come in line and start issuing defined cont pensions0 -
Since the public sector is basically a drag on the real workers, and apparently short time etc is widespread in the private sector, why not close the PS for one month and not pay people for that month. This would reduce government outlay and the public sector workers would have the time off, so would have something for the loss of income.0
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Since the public sector is basically a drag on the real workers, and apparently short time etc is widespread in the private sector, why not close the PS for one month and not pay people for that month. This would reduce government outlay and the public sector workers would have the time off, so would have something for the loss of income.
Funny... I like the tongue in cheek approach!
However, if the sections of the public sector that ARE overpaid (read buraucrats... and crap teachers) did strike for a month. They would shoot themselves in the foot. We would see how little the are actually needed.
But, of course, as always with the Public Sector, they will hide behind the Nurses, the Gardai, and the Firemen... the real pubilc sector people we need.0 -
ardmacha
missing the point, PS sector not a drag on rest. provides useful & essential services. having civil servants who're paid substantiallly more than private sector, have job security, better terms of employment, & vastly superior and economically unsound pensions, that is a drag, both financially and mentally. growth in the economy (in but public and private) comes from growth in private sector, so you need to encourage people to go into ir, not have a generation of college grads aspiring to work in public sector0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I'm starting to believe that the Public sector have had it so well, for so long that they don't even realise how well paid they are !
I'm starting to believe it too! I found this little gem on the publicjobs.ie site, (work) benefits section:
Need a break?
We often need a break to recharge. In the Civil Service you can avail of a career break, without having to worry about taking a step down in your career.
Caroline Clarke, Higher Executive Officer, utilised her career break to travel to Jersey.
...to have that option without giving up your job is really nice. To know that if you go out of the country for six months/a year - you can have anything up to five years - you know that there is a job there when you come back...
Wow! Taking a year off and coming back to a guaranteed job is pretty sweet. I work in the private sector and during my 20s took some time off to travel - it took at least 3 months to find a job, and then I was at a disadvantage (employers only really want to count relevant recent experience in Ireland - even though I had spent time getting good experience in Australia).
Maybe I'll start applying for a PS job after all...0 -
Solicitors make too much anyway, It's the legal secretaries that should get the money, they seem to do all the work any time I have had to use one, and the whole system is set up so that you can't avoid paying them.
Inheritance, Seperation, Buying property, Etc Etc Etc....
I have absolutely no sympathy for them.
most nurses or guards will have earned more by the time they are 40 then most solicitors , solicitors starting off dont earn anything like 32 k a year which nurses and guards do and from a younger age0 -
You will find that the Public Sector guys on this board (most of them anyway) just want to partake in some childish 'blame-storming'...
really?
I think you'll find there are but they are conveniently ignored...just like the private sector people who approach the debate rationally
these threads have been, in the main, places for both sides to hysterically throw blame ....ignoring facts and debates about approaches to the solution0 -
The pension levy was, in my opinion, the removal of a very nice perk!
As for the pay cuts in the Public sector. I would be happy to see increases in some areas... Nurses for example.. but pay cuts would be utterly useless... I want to see job cuts... useless buraucrats gone.. streamline the sector. Make it efficient. Run it like a productive business. Basically, I am asking for performance and accountability in all areas and levels!
I want value for my huge taxes. I'm pretty sure we are all entitled to it!
i realise nurses are the most sacred of sacred cows in this country but the reality is they are extremley well paid , they earn at least 30% more than in the uk , i have a cousing in wales who has been a nurse since around 1987 , he now earns 33 thousand pounds a year and is several grades up the ladder in the NHS system ,a nurse starts on 33 thousand euro a year here
lets not get all doey eyed , for both nurses and guards , its a job that pays well , i have met obnoxious nurses in hosital as often as nice pleasant ones , the vocation line thats trotted out is a myth and the majority of nurses and the absoulte vast majority of guards wouldnt have a hope of earning as much in the private sector0 -
really?
I think you'll find there are but they are conveniently ignored...just like the private sector people who approach the debate rationally
these threads have been, in the main, places for both sides to hysterically throw blame ....ignoring facts and debates about approaches to the solution
If someone in the Public Sector can give me validation for their inflated salaries, lack of performance management, entitlement to annual increases, and large pension... I will agree with you!0 -
That's a drop in the ocean. We are talking about 20bn here.
How about all govenment expenditure to system integrators such as accenture stops.. until economic recovery.
Us in the technology sector know Accenture are good... but they are also expensive?.. And how much of these projects could be done in house?
I am with you totally on doing projects and achieving the results in-house, this should be a standard, i'd say consultants have cost the public sector a serious amount of money, obviously I don't have figures, but saying that all the consultants are gone now from where I am.
I wouldn't consider the Recycle centres money a drop in the ocean, you have to start somewhere. €48k for one year is a salary for someone...
Now, I understand that pay cuts are coming, hopefully this will keep the private sector happy, don't worry about single salary earning households losing their homes, once it's public sector pay, cut it.
Middle management in the public sector are the biggest offender for me, they recieve bonuses, overtime, allowances, travel expenses, overnight subs that come to on average twice the annual salary of an ordinary clerical staff member, Address this and don't cut the core salary for every single worker, get rid of these over generous elephants that are draining public money, I want value for my money too, I too have to drive the roads and pay the VAT on everything I buy.
Every hear the phrase "too many chiefs and not enough indians", that's exactly what i think of with the public sector and i work in it.
I agree that nurses should be exempt from cuts because they do the mother and father of all jobs.
Again I reiterate the point that I am all for reform but do it properly and start from the top and work down, what you seem to be calling for is to start from the bottom and work up.
I would love to do a wife swap kinda thing where you could be in my shoes and vice versa so we could get a handle on where we both are coming from, that way opinions could flow and no one gets offended.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I'm lovin it !!!!
Let the environment pay to maintain a nonsensical, unrealistic difference between public sector pay and private sector pay . . Heck, who cares about the planet. . we are only on it for an average of about 80 years so lets let the next generation deal with that !!
Seriously, get real ! There are lots of mechanisms in place already to cover the cost of recycling packaging (eg. www.repak.ie ) and generally the money comes from the consumer already . . Your idea will do nothing other than to disincentivise recycling !
Seriously, you lose credibility with this kind of statement. . Of course every citizen is entitled to a state pension; otherwise what do we do . . dis-own the elderly. However the difference between the state pension and the public sector pension is ginormous. . and the 7% you are paying is only a fraction of what it is costing the state. .
I'm starting to believe that the Public sector have had it so well, for so long that they don't even realise how well paid they are !
I didn't say cut the environment spending, Come on! You ask for alternatives and then shoot them down, Like I said, until there are public ector pay cuts you'll never be happy, It's called begrudgery.
Did i say disown the elderly, No, i said that even if i scratched all my life i'm still entitled to a pension, you're ignorance is blinding you my friend.
Because i work for 45 years am i not entitled to a better pension than someone who doesn't contribute to their own. That's silly.
If i am so well paid how is it that myself and my public sector worker girlfriend both have 2nd jobs to keep afloat and we have no credit cards or loans, only mortgage of 300k with 2 shi**y enough 01 and 04 cars.
This is an E-mail sent this morning from the finance dept:
Please find attached a budget template for 2010 listing the job codes where you are named as budget holder.
Further significant cuts in funding from central government are anticipated in the December budget. Local sources of income are also under pressure due to the economic downturn. As a consequence all non pay expenditure which is not fixed must be reviewed with the objective of achieving a 15% reduction.
To facilitate the process, a breakdown of your non pay expenditure to the end of August is contained in the attached spreadsheet.
Please complete the template with the anticipated budget for 2010 building in the 15% reduction no later than Monday October 5th.
When replying please identify the items being cut and the amount of the reduction.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
Tell me now that we are not trying to cut costs, you speak like you know exactly what goes on in local authorities when you don't.
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If i am so well paid how is it that myself and my public sector worker girlfriend both have 2nd jobs to keep afloat and we have no credit cards or loans, only mortgage of 300k with 2 shi**y enough 01 and 04 cars.
Maybe because you bought a house at twice it's real value, or at the very least 60-70% more than it was worth.0 -
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Maybe because you bought a house at twice it's real value, or at the very least 60-70% more than it was worth.
Well as one poster put it, i thought i was contributing to the economy, how wrong was I eh?
Hindsight is a great thing, I'm not complaining about my mortgage, I'm saying look further than cutting grass roots workers pay before jumping in with both feet...0 -
If someone in the Public Sector can give me validation for their inflated salaries, lack of performance management, entitlement to annual increases, and large pension... I will agree with you!
you are moving the goalposts now!
there are public sector workers who realise the state we are in and need
1. to get finances under control, including the public sector pay bill
2. real management reform to let us confornt serious issues like under-performance (and indeed non-performance) etc
its these people who are conveniently ignored with all PS being tarred the same as those who come on here with ridiculous positions0 -
you are moving the goalposts now!
there are public sector workers who realise the state we are in and need
1. to get finances under control, including the public sector pay bill
2. real management reform to let us confornt serious issues like under-performance (and indeed non-performance) etc
its these people who are conveniently ignored with all PS being tarred the same as those who come on here with ridiculous positions
Well said.0 -
So we have it again, the real issue is the size of the mortgage. Funny that PS workers with low mortgages don't really have an objection to a paycut for the sake of the country.(on these boards and in real life)
Its your responsibility for overpaying for a house, not the govt, the taxpayer or country. Deal with it.0 -
Middle management in the public sector are the biggest offender for me, they recieve bonuses, overtime, allowances, travel expenses, overnight subs that come to on average twice the annual salary of an ordinary clerical staff member, Address this and don't cut the core salary for every single worker, get rid of these over generous elephants that are draining public money, I want value for my money too, I too have to drive the roads and pay the VAT on everything I buy.
Every hear the phrase "too many chiefs and not enough indians", that's exactly what i think of with the public sector and i work in it.
I agree that nurses should be exempt from cuts because they do the mother and father of all jobs.
You are ignoring the data that clearly shows that the gap between the public and private sectors is biggest within the low-income sector. In the private sector this same group of people are being hit with massive redundancies (NOTE : There are about 350,000 people working in the Public Sector; The private sector has shed nearly half that number in the last year). Yes there is reform needed throughout the system, yes there is a need to radically alter the expenses system etc however, there is also a fundamental need to address, at all levels the difference between wages in the public and private sectors. And I include the nurses in this. . I agree that they do a wonderful job; my sister is a nurse and we argue about this all the time, but we have the highest paid nurses in Europe.
Incidentally, by way of comparison . . My sister is a nurse, working part time in the public sector. Her husband is now an unemployed architect who lost his job because his company could no longer afford to pay him. Ireland Inc. can no longer afford to pay higher salaries to the public sector.I didn't say cut the environment spending, Come on! You ask for alternatives and then shoot them down, Like I said, until there are public ector pay cuts you'll never be happy, It's called begrudgery.
Did i say disown the elderly, No, i said that even if i scratched all my life i'm still entitled to a pension, you're ignorance is blinding you my friend.
Because i work for 45 years am i not entitled to a better pension than someone who doesn't contribute to their own. That's silly.
If i am so well paid how is it that myself and my public sector worker girlfriend both have 2nd jobs to keep afloat and we have no credit cards or loans, only mortgage of 300k with 2 shi**y enough 01 and 04 cars.
Well, you did actually . . you argued that the government should stop funding recycling centres. Apart from the fact that this ignores the basic reality that these centres are ultimately paid for by consumers your basic principle amounts to a prioritisation of public sector wages over environmental spending.
I'm sorry to be unemotional but your personal circumstances and what cars you drive are not important to me. . . For every example you give me of a not-so-well-off public sector worker, I will give you 10 examples of people in the private sector who have lost their jobs and risk loosing their homes. It is painful for everyone and its going to get worse but it is also irrelevant. There is a simple fact here that the government have to dramattically reduce their wage bill if they are to save the public finances. No different to the simple fact that Company X has to shed 10% of its workforce through redundancy if it is to continue trading.0 -
So we have it again, the real issue is the size of the mortgage. Funny that PS workers with low mortgages don't really have an objection to a paycut for the sake of the country.(on these boards and in real life)
Its your responsibility for overpaying for a house, not the govt, the taxpayer or country. Deal with it.
Am I complaining about my mortgage you muppet? Read the post again!
I'm saying that cuts are needed and are taking place as we speak, you're too blind to see the wood for the trees, the cuts ARE happening.
This thread is a waste of time, offering some alternatives and an agreeable opinion to change and still the bullsh*t. Do you want the shirt off me back too?0 -
In both sectors there are people struggling. Every household is different and to label all public sector workers the same is shameful and ignorant. There are people who are milking the social welfare system while there are many thousands more who are in genuine need - should we cut all welfare payments to ensure nobody gets more than they 'deserve'? Why penalise all public sector workers under the same arguement?
Myself and my partner are public sector workers. We have one child and two mortgages - not an investment property, we bought individually before we met and despite trying to sell for 18months have been unable. We drive two vehicles because we work different hours but those vehicles may not even pass the NCT next time round - they are not expensive cars, they are clapped out heaps. Along with the regular household bills, car, house, health and life insurances we have a childminding bill equivalent to almost half one of our wages. We have both been hit by the levies already and are just about coping BUT recognise that the country is in dire straits and as a united society we must all do what is necessary to aid recovery.
The problem we have is not that we may see our pay cut again - though we're obviously not welcoming it - but that we are being targeted for a third time while other high-expense areas of public spending are going untouched. United we stand, divided we fall - we should all be facing this together not allowing one section of people to be targeted over and over.
Can those who are unemployed and in receipt of unemployment benefit not provide man hours equivalent to their weekly payout to assist a floundering business or save a county council wage? Can the prisoners we house, feed and educate not provide man hours to manufacture goods for the government for sale or domestic use or work on our roads or parks or other public services to save wages?
Can those who are unemployed with children and in receipt of social welfare not start up schemes to provide childminding free of charge for those who have jobs but are finding the childminding costs are crippling their families and households in exchange for the taxpayers contribution to their keep? I'm sure the churches and community centres would have the space to provide a safe environment for it. Can any of us look after an elderly relative or neighbour who has had their homehelp cut by doing a bit of shopping for them, making sure they have eaten, are warm and have a little human contact and conversation?
Can we give some of our time freely to help educate and train school-leavers or the unemployed, to provide youth groups and community classes and reduce crime through education and pride in ourselves, in our communities, in our country? Can the government do something about the ridiculous cost of EVERYTHING in the country so that those of us who are having our pay cut, our child benefit cut(which goes towards the childminding bill!)or have lost our jobs can shop local instead of going across the border and spending what little we have elsewhere?
This is a problem for all of society to face and tackle not just the public sector workers. You cannot tar everyone with the same brush, across the board there are people struggling, our friends, our neighbours, our colleagues. OUR country needs ALL of us to work together. Thank you for reading.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »You are ignoring the data that clearly shows that the gap between the public and private sectors is biggest within the low-income sector. In the private sector this same group of people are being hit with massive redundancies (NOTE : There are about 350,000 people working in the Public Sector; The private sector has shed nearly half that number in the last year). Yes there is reform needed throughout the system, yes there is a need to radically alter the expenses system etc however, there is also a fundamental need to address, at all levels the difference between wages in the public and private sectors. And I include the nurses in this. . I agree that they do a wonderful job; my sister is a nurse and we argue about this all the time, but we have the highest paid nurses in Europe.
Incidentally, by way of comparison . . My sister is a nurse, working part time in the public sector. Her husband is now an unemployed architect who lost his job because his company could no longer afford to pay him. Ireland Inc. can no longer afford to pay higher salaries to the public sector.
Well, you did actually . . you argued that the government should stop funding recycling centres. Apart from the fact that this ignores the basic reality that these centres are ultimately paid for by consumers your basic principle amounts to a prioritisation of public sector wages over environmental spending.
I'm sorry to be unemotional but your personal circumstances and what cars you drive are not important to me. . . For every example you give me of a not-so-well-off public sector worker, I will give you 10 examples of people in the private sector who have lost their jobs and risk loosing their homes. It is painful for everyone and its going to get worse but it is also irrelevant. There is a simple fact here that the government have to dramattically reduce their wage bill if they are to save the public finances. No different to the simple fact that Company X has to shed 10% of its workforce through redundancy if it is to continue trading.
I'm not complaining about cars and houses FFS, i don't care that you don't care either, I come to work and do my bit, core hours no overtime,
It's these other expenses that need to be looked at first.
What's the point with the negative "it's going to get worse" attitude, move past that, Every public sector worker will have a paycut and then you can come on a gloat, but will you be happy then, i doubt it, you'll gripe that you saw a pot hole or that your water was off for 10 minutes.
I have tried to be diplomatic on this thread but you people don't get that we accept change in the public sector.
I didn't say cut the Environment spending either, what i said was if you want to cut the public spending look to already subsidised spending, (Including this)after all it's a private company that are reaping the rewards of public money, ask them to make cuts and charge the councils less, then YOU won't have to pay for it?
Anyway, enough of this sh*te, it'll never be enough to accept change. Come on in to the office you can have my job....seeing as you're so envious of it....
OUT!0 -
i realise nurses are the most sacred of sacred cows in this country but the reality is they are extremley well paid , they earn at least 30% more than in the uk , i have a cousing in wales who has been a nurse since around 1987 , he now earns 33 thousand pounds a year and is several grades up the ladder in the NHS system ,a nurse starts on 33 thousand euro a year here
lets not get all doey eyed , for both nurses and guards , its a job that pays well , i have met obnoxious nurses in hosital as often as nice pleasant ones , the vocation line thats trotted out is a myth and the majority of nurses and the absoulte vast majority of guards wouldnt have a hope of earning as much in the private sector
I am a nurse in the public sector. I do it as a job, not a vocation. I went to college for 3 years to do this job. I worked in the NHS for as long as I have worked for the HSE. Irish student nurses now go to college for 4 years, only one of those being paid. Every year we pay a fee for the honour. We pay for our own uniforms and most nurses are in a union to cover them for liability insurance. There are good and bad in all walks of life, including (shock horror) hospitals. I am sorry if you have had a bad experience with nurses in hospital.
Nurses in the private sector earn largely comparable wages in Ireland to what they would earn in the public sector. In this wonderful world of "the market" do you think Private hospitals would have been able to staff their establishments paying much less than the Public sector?
Your cousin in Wales who now earns less than me is partly due to wages in Ireland being better than the UK, but mainly due to the fact the Euro when it came into being was worth 69p or less, it is now worth 90p. Do you want Irish wages to be based on the strength or otherwise of Sterling? When I moved to Ireland 6 years ago I was earning 1500 Sterling a year more than I earned in UK. The NHS has incremental rises as does the HSE. Having worked in the NHS I would say (and I am sure he would say) your cousin is underpaid.0 -
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In both sectors there are people struggling. Every household is different and to label all public sector workers the same is shameful and ignorant. There are people who are milking the social welfare system while there are many thousands more who are in genuine need - should we cut all welfare payments to ensure nobody gets more than they 'deserve'? Why penalise all public sector workers under the same arguement?
Myself and my partner are public sector workers. We have one child and two mortgages - not an investment property, we bought individually before we met and despite trying to sell for 18months have been unable. We drive two vehicles because we work different hours but those vehicles may not even pass the NCT next time round - they are not expensive cars, they are clapped out heaps. Along with the regular household bills, car, house, health and life insurances we have a childminding bill equivalent to almost half one of our wages. We have both been hit by the levies already and are just about coping BUT recognise that the country is in dire straits and as a united society we must all do what is necessary to aid recovery.
The problem we have is not that we may see our pay cut again - though we're obviously not welcoming it - but that we are being targeted for a third time while other high-expense areas of public spending are going untouched. United we stand, divided we fall - we should all be facing this together not allowing one section of people to be targeted over and over.
Can those who are unemployed and in receipt of unemployment benefit not provide man hours equivalent to their weekly payout to assist a floundering business or save a county council wage? Can the prisoners we house, feed and educate not provide man hours to manufacture goods for the government for sale or domestic use or work on our roads or parks or other public services to save wages?
Can those who are unemployed with children and in receipt of social welfare not start up schemes to provide childminding free of charge for those who have jobs but are finding the childminding costs are crippling their families and households in exchange for the taxpayers contribution to their keep? I'm sure the churches and community centres would have the space to provide a safe environment for it. Can any of us look after an elderly relative or neighbour who has had their homehelp cut by doing a bit of shopping for them, making sure they have eaten, are warm and have a little human contact and conversation?
Can we give some of our time freely to help educate and train school-leavers or the unemployed, to provide youth groups and community classes and reduce crime through education and pride in ourselves, in our communities, in our country? Can the government do something about the ridiculous cost of EVERYTHING in the country so that those of us who are having our pay cut, our child benefit cut(which goes towards the childminding bill!)or have lost our jobs can shop local instead of going across the border and spending what little we have elsewhere?
This is a problem for all of society to face and tackle not just the public sector workers. You cannot tar everyone with the same brush, across the board there are people struggling, our friends, our neighbours, our colleagues. OUR country needs ALL of us to work together. Thank you for reading.
Brilliantly said Aby1, although you won't get the acknowledgement you deserve on this thread.0
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