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Public sector pay: the wrong debate
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Truth be told, we're all in this mess together, public/private/whatever. But like any family household, if this country is spending more than it earns, something has got to give. A fair deal across the board is needed and yes, pay cuts. I am a public servant and i make no excuses for that, I work for what i earn and always have. The problem i have with the current situation is that this country has not got an effective leader. Decisions should have been made last April about pay cuts in the Public Sector. Instead the problem has been dragged through the bushes/muck for months, getting scratched and dirtied up along the way. I think most Irish people would actually respect a leader who talked the talk and walked the walk, Cowen does neither. I say to Cowen, make the damn decisions now and stop this uncertainty. Also, to people who tied nooses around their own necks with huge mortgages, you have only yourself to blame. We're the idiots who bought into the hype! All the idiots who said rent was 'dead money' must now think how deadly their mortgage is! I've never seen a hitch on a hearse! You're not bringing your gaff to the next life with you, so all we ever pay in this life is rent...........0
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Truth be told, we're all in this mess together, public/private/whatever. But like any family household, if this country is spending more than it earns, something has got to give. A fair deal across the board is needed and yes, pay cuts. I am a public servant and i make no excuses for that, I work for what i earn and always have. The problem i have with the current situation is that this country has not got an effective leader. Decisions should have been made last April about pay cuts in the Public Sector. Instead the problem has been dragged through the bushes/muck for months, getting scratched and dirtied up along the way. I think most Irish people would actually respect a leader who talked the talk and walked the walk, Cowen does neither. I say to Cowen, make the damn decisions now and stop this uncertainty. Also, to people who tied nooses around their own necks with huge mortgages, you have only yourself to blame. We're the idiots who bought into the hype! All the idiots who said rent was 'dead money' must now think how deadly their mortgage is! I've never seen a hitch on a hearse! You're not bringing your gaff to the next life with you, so all we ever pay in this life is rent...........
100% agree...Love the last line...0 -
A cousin of mine is taking a three year break from her p.s. job ...and wait for it....she is getting paid not to work ! Not her full salary, but nevertheless a nice little earner which will be more than some self employed people I know are earning.I'm starting to believe it too! I found this little gem on the publicjobs.ie site, (work) benefits section:
Need a break?
We often need a break to recharge. In the Civil Service you can avail of a career break, without having to worry about taking a step down in your career.
Caroline Clarke, Higher Executive Officer, utilised her career break to travel to Jersey.
...to have that option without giving up your job is really nice. To know that if you go out of the country for six months/a year - you can have anything up to five years - you know that there is a job there when you come back...
Wow! Taking a year off and coming back to a guaranteed job is pretty sweet. I work in the private sector and during my 20s took some time off to travel - it took at least 3 months to find a job, and then I was at a disadvantage (employers only really want to count relevant recent experience in Ireland - even though I had spent time getting good experience in Australia).
Maybe I'll start applying for a PS job after all...
A friend from a sports club is going travelling around Australia for a year + has her full time govt job to fall back on when she returns. She justifies the govts position saying that they are trying to reduce numbers + that the govt hopes some of the people who take a paid career break will not return.i0 -
What's the point with the negative "it's going to get worse" attitude, move past that, Every public sector worker will have a paycut and then you can come on a gloat, but will you be happy then, i doubt it, you'll gripe that you saw a pot hole or that your water was off for 10 minutes.
I will have no gripe and I won't gloat. I have plenty of people around me who will suffer if public sector salaries are cut and I won't be any happier for their suffering . . that doesn't mean I cannot recognise what needs to happen.I have tried to be diplomatic on this thread but you people don't get that we accept change in the public sector.
You accept change, as long as it doesn't affect you . . you come out with the usual lines about the big-wigs and the middle management in the public sector wasting all of the money. As I have pointed out, as the ESRI have pointed out, the differential is biggest amongst the lower paid.I didn't say cut the Environment spending either, what i said was if you want to cut the public spending look to already subsidised spending, (Including this)after all it's a private company that are reaping the rewards of public money, ask them to make cuts and charge the councils less, then YOU won't have to pay for it?
Yes you did . . you proposed that the government should stop funding recycling centres. And this extension to your argument is even more ludicrous. If the private company you talk about suffers, they will pass that suffering on to their employees in either salary cuts or redundancies so in effect what you are suggesting is that we ought to load the burden onto the private sector in order to protect the public sector salary differential.Anyway, enough of this sh*te, it'll never be enough to accept change. Come on in to the office you can have my job....seeing as you're so envious of it....
OUT!
According to the ESRI (not me), if you and I are working at the same level, then you are earning somewhere between 20 and 30% more than me . . you have a guaranteed pension at a level that I can never afford; you work a shorter working week and have more holidays than I have and you have pretty solid job security . . so yeah, bring it on ! Lets swap jobs !
Ask yourself this question .. I don't know what you do or what level you work at but do you believe you could step out of the public sector in the morning into an equivalently paid position. If you do, then maybe the ESRI are wrong about all of this . . If not, then why not accept the need to adjust your remuneration to a level comensurate with the private sector.0 -
I would love to do a wife swap kinda thing where you could be in my shoes and vice versa so we could get a handle on where we both are coming from, that way opinions could flow and no one gets offended.
No need...many of us in the private sector have close relatives and friends in the public sector, or who used to work in the public sector, and know only too well whats its like.0 -
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A cousin of mine is taking a three year break from her p.s. job ...and wait for it....she is getting paid not to work !
Less of the selective anti PS examples, please
Irish Life and Permanent had a similar scheme
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1111/1226356725648.html0 -
A cousin of mine is taking a three year break from her p.s. job ...and wait for it....she is getting paid not to work ! Not her full salary, but nevertheless a nice little earner which will be more than some self employed people I know are earning.
A friend from a sports club is going travelling around Australia for a year + has her full time govt job to fall back on when she returns. She justifies the govts position saying that they are trying to reduce numbers + that the govt hopes some of the people who take a paid career break will not return.i
Any career break for a nurse in the HSE is totally 100% unpaid. I am sure there are plenty of executives in the private sector on "gardening leave" (or money for nothing). Blanket statements are so much easier though aren't they.0 -
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dooferoaks wrote: »Any career break for a nurse in the HSE is totally 100% unpaid. .
I never said she was a nurse. There is a new scheme for paid career breaks in at least some areas of the public service. It is to help reduce numbers in some areas.
unpaid gardening lease, or at least gardening leave not paid for by the money the govt borrows or gets from taxpayers.;)dooferoaks wrote: »I am sure there are plenty of executives in the private sector on "gardening leave" (or money for nothing). Blanket statements are so much easier though aren't they.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: ». . Jenningso argues that public sector pay should be cut across the board. .
no he doesn't0 -
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In both sectors there are people struggling. Every household is different and to label all public sector workers the same is shameful and ignorant. There are people who are milking the social welfare system while there are many thousands more who are in genuine need - should we cut all welfare payments to ensure nobody gets more than they 'deserve'? Why penalise all public sector workers under the same arguement?
Myself and my partner are public sector workers. We have one child and two mortgages - not an investment property, we bought individually before we met and despite trying to sell for 18months have been unable. We drive two vehicles because we work different hours but those vehicles may not even pass the NCT next time round - they are not expensive cars, they are clapped out heaps. Along with the regular household bills, car, house, health and life insurances we have a childminding bill equivalent to almost half one of our wages. We have both been hit by the levies already and are just about coping BUT recognise that the country is in dire straits and as a united society we must all do what is necessary to aid recovery.
The problem we have is not that we may see our pay cut again - though we're obviously not welcoming it - but that we are being targeted for a third time while other high-expense areas of public spending are going untouched. United we stand, divided we fall - we should all be facing this together not allowing one section of people to be targeted over and over.
Can those who are unemployed and in receipt of unemployment benefit not provide man hours equivalent to their weekly payout to assist a floundering business or save a county council wage? Can the prisoners we house, feed and educate not provide man hours to manufacture goods for the government for sale or domestic use or work on our roads or parks or other public services to save wages?
Can those who are unemployed with children and in receipt of social welfare not start up schemes to provide childminding free of charge for those who have jobs but are finding the childminding costs are crippling their families and households in exchange for the taxpayers contribution to their keep? I'm sure the churches and community centres would have the space to provide a safe environment for it. Can any of us look after an elderly relative or neighbour who has had their homehelp cut by doing a bit of shopping for them, making sure they have eaten, are warm and have a little human contact and conversation?
Can we give some of our time freely to help educate and train school-leavers or the unemployed, to provide youth groups and community classes and reduce crime through education and pride in ourselves, in our communities, in our country? Can the government do something about the ridiculous cost of EVERYTHING in the country so that those of us who are having our pay cut, our child benefit cut(which goes towards the childminding bill!)or have lost our jobs can shop local instead of going across the border and spending what little we have elsewhere?
This is a problem for all of society to face and tackle not just the public sector workers. You cannot tar everyone with the same brush, across the board there are people struggling, our friends, our neighbours, our colleagues. OUR country needs ALL of us to work together. Thank you for reading.
I agree with some of your suggestions and I totally agree with the principle that we all have to work together if we are ever to get out of this mess . . however, some of your suggestions are not realistic and will do nothing other than pass the pain onto the private sector when childcare workers or manufacturing workers are made redundant as a result of the free labour that you are proposing to come from the prisoners and the unemployed. .0 -
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Less of the selective anti PS examples, please
Irish Life and Permanent had a similar scheme
I can choose not to pay money to Irish Life + Permanent. IL+P can go bust in 2 years time if it wants ( stranger things have happened ). Do you think its right that p.s. employees are paid not to work for a period of years ?0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »
According to the ESRI (not me), if you and I are working at the same level, then you are earning somewhere between 20 and 30% more than me . .
you are slightly misrepresenting the report there
it says that if a private sector and a public sector worker have the same level of education, same working hours, etc etc, then the public sector worker is likely to be paid moreAsk yourself this question .. I don't know what you do or what level you work at but do you believe you could step out of the public sector in the morning into an equivalently paid position.
this is a pointless question along the lines of "if it was so good in the public sector, why didn't you join up"
such points get us nowhere0 -
I can choose not to pay money to Irish Life + Permanent. IL+P can go bust in 2 years time if it wants ( stranger things have happened ). Do you think its right that p.s. employees are paid not to work for a period of years ?
sure jimmmy, I thought you thought that ALL PS workers are paid to do nothing?
the paid career break was brought in (along with early retirement etc) to try and reduce the pay bill...though it should be noted that there is very little take up of it0 -
I never said she was a nurse. There is a new scheme for paid career breaks in at least some areas of the public service. It is to help reduce numbers in some areas.
unpaid gardening lease, or at least gardening leave not paid for by the money the govt borrows or gets from taxpayers.;)
Point is, the Public service is as broad and wide ranging as the Private sector. I am in the Public sector and I cant go off and get paid career breaks, just the same as most people in the public sector cant. Selectively picking out little points (in a way the Daily Mail would be proud) is just lazy.
That your friend from your "sports club" gets paid or your "cousin" does is a tiny minority, in the same way it is a tiny minority of people in the Private sector can do the same.
I don't think its a useful idea in either sector by the way.0 -
In both sectors there are people struggling. Every household is different and to label all public sector workers the same is shameful and ignorant. There are people who are milking the social welfare system while there are many thousands more who are in genuine need - should we cut all welfare payments to ensure nobody gets more than they 'deserve'? Why penalise all public sector workers under the same arguement?
Myself and my partner are public sector workers. We have one child and two mortgages - not an investment property, we bought individually before we met and despite trying to sell for 18months have been unable. We drive two vehicles because we work different hours but those vehicles may not even pass the NCT next time round - they are not expensive cars, they are clapped out heaps. Along with the regular household bills, car, house, health and life insurances we have a childminding bill equivalent to almost half one of our wages. We have both been hit by the levies already and are just about coping BUT recognise that the country is in dire straits and as a united society we must all do what is necessary to aid recovery.
The problem we have is not that we may see our pay cut again - though we're obviously not welcoming it - but that we are being targeted for a third time while other high-expense areas of public spending are going untouched. United we stand, divided we fall - we should all be facing this together not allowing one section of people to be targeted over and over.
Can those who are unemployed and in receipt of unemployment benefit not provide man hours equivalent to their weekly payout to assist a floundering business or save a county council wage? Can the prisoners we house, feed and educate not provide man hours to manufacture goods for the government for sale or domestic use or work on our roads or parks or other public services to save wages?
Can those who are unemployed with children and in receipt of social welfare not start up schemes to provide childminding free of charge for those who have jobs but are finding the childminding costs are crippling their families and households in exchange for the taxpayers contribution to their keep? I'm sure the churches and community centres would have the space to provide a safe environment for it. Can any of us look after an elderly relative or neighbour who has had their homehelp cut by doing a bit of shopping for them, making sure they have eaten, are warm and have a little human contact and conversation?
Can we give some of our time freely to help educate and train school-leavers or the unemployed, to provide youth groups and community classes and reduce crime through education and pride in ourselves, in our communities, in our country? Can the government do something about the ridiculous cost of EVERYTHING in the country so that those of us who are having our pay cut, our child benefit cut(which goes towards the childminding bill!)or have lost our jobs can shop local instead of going across the border and spending what little we have elsewhere?
This is a problem for all of society to face and tackle not just the public sector workers. You cannot tar everyone with the same brush, across the board there are people struggling, our friends, our neighbours, our colleagues. OUR country needs ALL of us to work together. Thank you for reading.
Well said Aby1. I am also a public sector worker while my OH is a private sector, unemployed worker. I really believe the whole of our citizenship needes to start working together and fighting toward the same goals, rather than being sidetracked by this strategically govt/media created "them vs us" attitude. Eroding workers' wages will not boost our economy or stimulate business, it will do the opposite. If the government are adamant that public sector workers must pay through more wage cuts as a means of demonstrating a commitment to saving the economy, then at least PLEASE lead by example and take a paycut yourselves first. Get rid of a few layers at the managerial levels before you hit the floors. Show us your plans to stimulate job creation, show us that you're chasing corrupt bankers, developers, and big loan defaulters.0 -
you are slightly misrepresenting the report there
it says that if a private sector and a public sector worker have the same level of education, same working hours, etc etc, then the public sector worker is likely to be paid more
I don't understand (genuinely !). What is the difference between what I am saying and what you are saying ?0 -
Do you think its right that p.s. employees are paid not to work for a period of years ?
Well you could lay off some people and pay them dole. Or you could pay them a small amount to go away. Both reduce government expenditure by a similar amount, but in the latter case you get a well motived worker back in a couple of years when things are not so tight.0 -
Yeah, I don't argue a pay cut across the board! A fair deal for everyone is what i'm arguing for, public, private, taxpayer, landowners........ whatever. Top down, pay is an issue. There are people earning 100k who actually do nothing! Decisions have to be made and leadership is what i'm looking for first and foremost. If pay cuts and taxes are required from our 'leader' to get us back on track, then so be it. We will take it! Justify every decision. But give us a healthy health system, infrastructure, safe streets, education etc. At the moment, we have the country we deserve and the government to boot!no he doesn't0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »But you don't agree 100% . . Jenningso argues that public sector pay should be cut across the board. . . you don't accept this . .
unless you've changed your mind ?
Wrong again jordan, I said in many previous posts that i accept paycuts, do them fairly and don't start with the lower paid....That's my point
I notice you didn't comment on the finance dept e-mail i posted about cuts that are already in place, it's blinkers you're wearing.
You and I both know the public sector will have across the boards cuts so why keep whinging about it, do it fairly and do it quickly. So i can stop listening to this rubbish....
This Civil war of words between private and public sector is creating a bigger harder to repair divide.0 -
Yeah, I don't argue a pay cut across the board! A fair deal for everyone is what i'm arguing for, public, private, taxpayer, landowners........ whatever. Top down, pay is an issue. There are people earning 100k who actually do nothing! Decisions have to be made and leadership is what i'm looking for first and foremost. If pay cuts and taxes are required from our 'leader' to get us back on track, then so be it. We will take it! Justify every decision. But give us a healthy health system, infrastructure, safe streets, education etc. At the moment, we have the country we deserve and the government to boot!
Again, well put.0 -
Yeah, I don't argue a pay cut across the board! A fair deal for everyone is what i'm arguing for, public, private, taxpayer, landowners........ whatever. Top down, pay is an issue. There are people earning 100k who actually do nothing! Decisions have to be made and leadership is what i'm looking for first and foremost. If pay cuts and taxes are required from our 'leader' to get us back on track, then so be it. We will take it! Justify every decision. But give us a healthy health system, infrastructure, safe streets, education etc. At the moment, we have the country we deserve and the government to boot!
Sorry for misquoting you .. I thought from your original post you had accepted that the salary issue needs to be addressed across the board.
I'm baffled at the number of public sector workers who accept the idea of pay cuts but only in the levels above them . . the ESRI report clearly states that the salary differential is biggest in the lower income sector.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I don't understand (genuinely !). What is the difference between what I am saying and what you are saying ?
"working at the same level" is what you said
the report, as I understand it, does not compare like-with-like public and private jobs as such, it comes at it from a different angle0 -
Wrong again jordan, I said in many previous posts that i accept paycuts, do them fairly and don't start with the lower paid....That's my point
I notice you didn't comment on the finance dept e-mail i posted about cuts that are already in place, it's blinkers you're wearing.
You and I both know the public sector will have across the boards cuts so why keep whinging about it, do it fairly and do it quickly. So i can stop listening to this rubbish....
This Civil war of words between private and public sector is creating a bigger harder to repair divide.
I don't comment on your email from the department of finance because I presume that this was an internal, and probably confidential message and I don't think you ought to be either publishing or discussing it on bulletin boards. . .0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I will have no gripe and I won't gloat. I have plenty of people around me who will suffer if public sector salaries are cut and I won't be any happier for their suffering . . that doesn't mean I cannot recognise what needs to happen.
You accept change, as long as it doesn't affect you . . you come out with the usual lines about the big-wigs and the middle management in the public sector wasting all of the money. As I have pointed out, as the ESRI have pointed out, the differential is biggest amongst the lower paid.
Yes you did . . you proposed that the government should stop funding recycling centres. And this extension to your argument is even more ludicrous. If the private company you talk about suffers, they will pass that suffering on to their employees in either salary cuts or redundancies so in effect what you are suggesting is that we ought to load the burden onto the private sector in order to protect the public sector salary differential.
According to the ESRI (not me), if you and I are working at the same level, then you are earning somewhere between 20 and 30% more than me . . you have a guaranteed pension at a level that I can never afford; you work a shorter working week and have more holidays than I have and you have pretty solid job security . . so yeah, bring it on ! Lets swap jobs !
Ask yourself this question .. I don't know what you do or what level you work at but do you believe you could step out of the public sector in the morning into an equivalently paid position. If you do, then maybe the ESRI are wrong about all of this . . If not, then why not accept the need to adjust your remuneration to a level comensurate with the private sector.
The ESRI are not God, their stats take into account every single little benefit afforded to the public sector, there was never an issue when the private guys sat in thelr nice air conditioned offices working away but now that things have gotten worse what better way to deal with it than to hit those lazy public breast feeding shovel servants.
You're right, I don't want it to affect me, Do you? be realistic.0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »I'm baffled at the number of public sector workers who accept the idea of pay cuts but only in the levels above them . . the ESRI report clearly states that the salary differential is biggest in the lower income sector.
I am against an across the board cut for everyone because the public sector is so diverse and different categories did far better than others from pay deals, benchmarking etc
on a seperate point, I believe any report like this would show a bigger differential at lower incomes due the starting level in the public sector being above minimum wage ( which i think is appropriate...a starting teacher or nurse should not be getting the same as someone, for example, stacking shelves)
reducing the pay of the lowest paid PS workers by the same % as those on the highest wages is not necessarily the answer0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I don't comment on your email from the department of finance because I presume that this was an internal, and probably confidential message and I don't think you ought to be either publishing or discussing it on bulletin boards. . .
Cop out answer....presumtion is a major mistake these days....
I was merely using it as an example, no names or details were on it so it could have come from space.....0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »Sigh . . It really all boils down to the same thing . .
even bigger SIGH :pac::pac:
I said you were "slightly misrepresenting the report"...as the two concepts are not the same thing....nothing more sinister than that0
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