Public sector pay: the wrong debate

Wiley1

tunney wrote: »

Maybe a better idea would be to scrap the pension levy and just let PS workers have a defined contribution pension? So they can put in as little or as much as they like?

Or maybe let them put in absolutely nothing and just claim a state pension when the time comes.

Kimbot

tunney wrote: »

Maybe a better idea would be to scrap the pension levy and just let PS workers have a defined contribution pension? So they can put in as little or as much as they like?

That would seem the way to go. New entrants don't even get the option of paying into a pension or not it is thrown upon you and taken out of your wages from day 1!

tunney

Wiley1 wrote: »

Or maybe let them put in absolutely nothing and just claim a state pension when the time comes.

If they so choose. yes.

SparkyLarks

jonny24ie wrote: »

Answer this question: "How is it contributing to your pension when it goes nowhere near your pension?"

You pay more but get the same money, before this pension levy Public servants all paid an amount into their pension funds. Now they are paying more with no extra coming out of it.

Because the cost of providing the same pension is going up. therefeor it costs more to provide it. Largely due to increasing life expectancy.

So wither the person who is going thget the public service pension has to pay this increased cost, or the cost burden is put on the general tax payer.

Which is fair?

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

How much is the superannuation?
What you 'pay' in is a lot less then you ultimately get out...
Are you denying this?

On a bi-weekly payslip:

Pension contribution (Superann)= €60.39

Pension related deduction (levy) €105.71

Does this makes sense, these are both on the same payslip.

Do the math for a 40 year service and tell me that I will take more out than I put in, there's no way unless I live to be 150 years old...

murphaph

jenningso wrote: »

No bother. I think most public sector workers do accept pay cuts at some stage when it is all justified. But of course if the pain isn't felt from the top down, we'll all be unhappy (Banks>High earners>Joe Soap). In some areas of the public sector, management ranks have been swelled with high earners that bring up the average salary statistic. Actual front line public service workers are not on the pigs back at all. But they'll do their bit when the time comes.

Superb attitude. I expect to pay higher taxes going forward (already am in fact) but that won't be nearly enough when the biggest problem is the large discrepancy between public and private sector pay (I accept not every PS worker is overpaid, but most are and even if they aren't, they have job security which is worth its weight in gold these days!) and everyone in the whole country needs to work together at this to get Ireland back on track. Couldn't agree more that we need leadership that we can respect (don't see anyone in Dail Eireann who fulfills that role) and they should be leading by example. TD's should be on no more than 70 or 80k basic plus vouched expenses. The notion that we should pay a "good salary" (100k+) to TDs to ensure we "attract high quality candidates" seems to have completely failed anyway-the place is full of wasters and chancers. We might actually recruit TDs motivated by public service if the wages are slashed!

It goes without saying that the bankers who made mistakes should be removed from any bank receiving state aid, but that's probably easier said than done (unfortunately) as to do so might actually damage a bank beyond repair.

Wiley1

tunney wrote: »

If they so choose. yes.

fair enough, we'll all feed from the same trough while no one fills it, that doesn't compute to me.:D

tunney

Wiley1 wrote: »

On a bi-weekly payslip:

Pension contribution (Superann)= €60.39

Pension related deduction (levy) €105.71

Does this makes sense, these are both on the same payslip.

Do the math for a 40 year service and tell me that I will take more out than I put in, there's no way unless I live to be 150 years old...

24 * €160 * 40 = 153,600

Which is probably 50k less than the lump sum you'll get. Come on. Don't expect any sympathy. You're paying a fraction of market value.

Wiley1

Wiley1 wrote: »

On a bi-weekly payslip:

Pension contribution (Superann)= €60.39

Pension related deduction (levy) €105.71

Does this makes sense, these are both on the same payslip.

Do the math for a 40 year service and tell me that I will take more out than I put in, there's no way unless I live to be 150 years old...

Thought I'd chance the maths.

Total pension deduction per month = 332.20 X 12months X 40 years service = €159,456

Do you think public sector workers will get that value out of their contributions, I think not.

Riskymove

tunney wrote: »

24 * €160 * 40 = 153,600

Which is probably 50k less than the lump sum you'll get. Come on. Don't expect any sympathy. You're paying a fraction of market value.

more generalisation

if he was to get a €200+k lump sum he'd need to be earning over €130,000

not too many PS on that

Wiley1

tunney wrote: »

24 * €160 * 40 = 153,600

Which is probably 50k less than the lump sum you'll get. Come on. Don't expect any sympathy. You're paying a fraction of market value.

Well then give us the option "not to pay" and we'll accept a state pension, we don't have a choice in the matter, You do.

Wiley1

Riskymove wrote: »

more generalisation

if he was to get a €200+k lump sum he'd need to be earning over €130,000

not too many PS on that

Exactly (Blinkers firmly attached)....

optocynic

jonny24ie wrote: »

Ok then, simplify so you can understand.

I as a public servant at the start of this year already paid a % of my wage into my pension fund. (As does any Public servant in after 1995).
Now my pension is a set amount.

Then they add a "levy" and you are trying to say that it is a pension contribution.

My pension is still going to be the same amount when I retire regardless of this new levy so how is it contributing to my pension when the pension is still the same but I am now paying double what I was at the start of the year?

Now are you up to speed?

Up to speed???.. I already knew the nonsense you were going to spout!
The fact remains that if any private sector pension paid out what a Public Sector pension paid out... we would have to contribute how much more than you?

And once again...

Y/N.. If I contribute to my pension... is it a pay cut?

Riskymove

optocynic wrote: »

Y/N.. If I contribute to my pension... is it a pay cut?

if you forced to make a further contribution in return for no benefit then I'd say Y

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

Up to speed???.. I already knew the nonsense you were going to spout!
The fact remains that if any private sector pension paid out what a Public Sector pension paid out... we would have to contribute how much more than you?

And once again...

Y/N.. If I contribute to my pension... is it a pay cut?

It is not going to contribute to the pension is what jonnie is saying...

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

On a bi-weekly payslip:

Pension contribution (Superann)= €60.39

Pension related deduction (levy) €105.71

Does this makes sense, these are both on the same payslip.

Do the math for a 40 year service and tell me that I will take more out than I put in, there's no way unless I live to be 150 years old...

How much would I have to pay into a pension to get the same output as you?

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

Thought I'd chance the maths.

Total pension deduction per month = 332.20 X 12months X 40 years service = €159,456

Do you think public sector workers will get that value out of their contributions, I think not.

Of course you will... you will get more...

Lump sum dude.... lump sum!!!

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

How much would I have to pay into a pension to get the same output as you?

You tell me, you're the one raising the argument, I think you're missing the point that is compulsory, where are you have the choice of pensions you want, pay €3 a week or €300, you're the customer Opto...

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

Of course you will... you will get more...

Lump sum dude.... lump sum!!!

Why do you think all the older lads are leaving this year, Tax dude Tax.

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

You tell me, you're the one raising the argument, I think you're missing the point that is compulsory, where are you have the choice of pensions you want, pay €3 a week or €300, you're the customer Opto...

And this is where we agree... You should not have the PS pension (it is too big and crazy) but should be like the rest of us!.. A 'Customer'

But remember... the Private sector pay for the Public... we are your customer too... and we want value for money..

Unfortunatley.. you are all we have... no Public Sector Lidl out there.

tunney

NAMA + PS == IMF

Should be interesting to what happens to the PS then........

Idbatterim

given job security, pensions and the amount of cushy positions in the Public Service, their pay should be atleast 10% less than private sector. I just hope we dont start to come out of the slump too soon, so that the PS can get away with none of the pain the private sector has and is enduring!

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

Why do you think all the older lads are leaving this year, Tax dude Tax.

We are all going to get screwed (and are already screwed) with tax...
To save the economy.. we need money flowing, everywhere.
Welfare cuts (slashes) are needed... Public Sector deadwood purge would be nice.. (old timers that do f*ck all... and don't say they don't exist.. we all know they do!).. I would personally not like to see pay cut in the PS... I would rather useless job cuts.. and benefits cut too!

Kimbot

SparkyLarks wrote: »

Because the cost of providing the same pension is going up. therefeor it costs more to provide it. Largely due to increasing life expectancy.

So wither the person who is going thget the public service pension has to pay this increased cost, or the cost burden is put on the general tax payer.

Which is fair?

But you see the fact of the matter is that this Levy that is now in place is only there because the government needed funds to bail out the banks. They added a pension levy in to guarantee they could make the money for the bailout not to put in my pension fund!!

Idbatterim

their wages are so high, why in gods name do they get a pension sorted out for them. Whats wrong with the oap? let them invest in a private pension if they want...

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

And this is where we agree... You should not have the PS pension (it is too big and crazy) but should be like the rest of us!.. A 'Customer'

But remember... the Private sector pay for the Public... we are your customer too... and we want value for money..

Unfortunatley.. you are all we have... no Public Sector Lidl out there.

The private sector "contribute" to the public sector and in turn the country functions (talk to Brian C about value for money).

Services provided, Water, Sewage treatment, social housing, roads, social welfare, hostipals, Gardai. Community and Enterprise, supporting private sector startup businesses, Etc Etc Etc....

It's called a society and everyone is involved. public and private, would you let these services slip to prove a point?

tunney

jonny24ie wrote: »

But you see the fact of the matter is that this Levy that is now in place is only there because the government needed funds to bail out the banks. They added a pension levy in to guarantee they could make the money for the bailout not to put in my pension fund!!

Which is actually being paid for by the day to day taxes levied on the non-parasitic workers.

Kimbot

optocynic wrote: »

We are all going to get screwed (and are already screwed) with tax...
To save the economy.. we need money flowing, everywhere.
Welfare cuts (slashes) are needed... Public Sector deadwood purge would be nice.. (old timers that do f*ck all... and don't say they don't exist.. we all know they do!).. I would personally not like to see pay cut in the PS... I would rather useless job cuts.. and benefits cut too!

I would love to see the dead wood in the PS cut aswell mate. Its a disgrace that you could have 4 people in 1 office. 2 Are constantly flat out working and the other 2 could be sitting on their rears doing nothing all day long!

Welfare is too high to be honest.
Some public sector wages are well too high. Politicians/Higher grades and there are some obscene claims and benifits that can be claimed aswell which should be gotten rid of but I think the lowest grades should not be affected with a pay cut because they are barely surviving as it is!

I_am_Jebus

Idbatterim wrote: »

given job security, pensions and the amount of cushy positions in the Public Service, their pay should be atleast 10% less than private sector. I just hope we dont start to come out of the slump too soon, so that the PS can get away with none of the pain the private sector has and is enduring!

For anyone who has read my long post today. This is exactly the attitude I am talking about.

Wiley1

Idbatterim wrote: »

their wages are so high, why in gods name do they get a pension sorted out for them. Whats wrong with the oap? let them invest in a private pension if they want...

or even to have the option to choose would be nice.