Public sector pay: the wrong debate

Kimbot

Idbatterim wrote: »

given job security, pensions and the amount of cushy positions in the Public Service, their pay should be atleast 10% less than private sector. I just hope we dont start to come out of the slump too soon, so that the PS can get away with none of the pain the private sector has and is enduring!

How on earth are we getting away with anything.

We still got the Work levy, the pension levy and pay taxes at the same rate as the rest of people!
A lot of sections in the PS are understaffed because of the recruitment freeze and people are in turn having to pick up the slack and mostly on their own time!

Okay you say 10% less. Lets do a sample comparison:

How much would a "Senior Computer Programmer" with 10 years experience get in the private sector??

Wiley1

jonny24ie wrote: »

How on earth are we getting away with anything.

We still got the Work levy, the pension levy and pay taxes at the same rate as the rest of people!
A lot of sections in the PS are understaffed because of the recruitment freeze and people are in turn having to pick up the slack and mostly on their own time!

Okay you say 10% less. Lets do a sample comparison:

How much would a "Senior Computer Programmer" with 10 years experience get in the private sector??

Totally agree. We (public sector) can do no right....or God forbid even try.

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

The private sector "contribute" to the public sector and in turn the country functions (talk to Brian C about value for money).

Services provided, Water, Sewage treatment, social housing, roads, social welfare, hostipals, Gardai. Community and Enterprise, supporting private sector startup businesses, Etc Etc Etc....

It's called a society and everyone is involved. public and private, would you let these services slip to prove a point?

Well, let's look at the service:

Water: Soon to be charged for again.. so that is covered!
Sewage treatment: I'll give you that one.. definitely needed
Social Housing: Don't get me started on this. The government boondogle for their developer cronies! I get nothing out of it.
Roads: Motor Tax, and EU funding
Social Welfare: Excluding old age pension, the rest is money wasted, and a career choice for some. This is where we REALLY need to save money!
Hospitals: I always go to private clinics as I pay for insurance. But I do agree we need good public hospitals. Don't think we need so many administrative staff in HSE though!
Gardai: If they actually did something to deter toe-rags, they would be worth money. Required definitely
Private Sector Startup: Is the only valuable thing we currently have. Sponsoring entrepeneurs. Creating jobs and wealth... nurturing success. But of course, the socialist weasels in the unions don't like that!

optocynic

jonny24ie wrote: »

How on earth are we getting away with anything.

We still got the Work levy, the pension levy and pay taxes at the same rate as the rest of people!
A lot of sections in the PS are understaffed because of the recruitment freeze and people are in turn having to pick up the slack and mostly on their own time!

Okay you say 10% less. Lets do a sample comparison:

How much would a "Senior Computer Programmer" with 10 years experience get in the private sector??

What on earth does the Public Sector need with a "Senior Computer Programmer" ??

aby1

Optocynic,

Now don't be silly, I'm not suggesting we all bail into one house and live happily ever after. Whether you deliberately or mistakenly missed the point doesn't matter but it does prove that your use of the lowest form of wit coupled with your derogation of all public services is testiment to the fact that change will be very slow in this country.

I'm all for doing whatever we can to change. I've got friends who have taken paycuts to keep a colleague in employment in the private sector. I'm not on a side - I'm in the middle with me spudz!!!!

Who is really bitter? Not I said the public servant

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

What on earth does the Public Sector need with a "Senior Computer Programmer" ??

Working in-house, saving public finances....

optocynic

aby1 wrote: »

Who is really bitter? Not I said the public servant

You stand alone my dear!
If they spoke honestly, the Public Sector posters here would reveal their REAL alternative to required cuts.
They want to tax the successful.. even more!
That is my point!

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

Working in-house, saving public finances....

In theory. But how long would it take a Public Sector programmer to write and QA a bespoke piece of code, on comparison to a simple RFP process.

You are in the sector, you know about in-house project creep...

But, what do they need to develop today? I am just curious about the apps they need right now?

Riskymove

optocynic wrote: »

You stand alone my dear!
If they spoke honestly, the Public Sector posters here would reveal their REAL alternative to required cuts.
They want to tax the successful.. even more!
That is my point!

still tarring everyone with the same brush?


anyway, increases in tax would affect the PS as well so why would they want that?

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

Well, let's look at the service:

Water: Soon to be charged for again.. so that is covered!
Sewage treatment: I'll give you that one.. definitely needed
Social Housing: Don't get me started on this. The government boondogle for their developer cronies! I get nothing out of it.
Roads: Motor Tax, and EU funding
Social Welfare: Excluding old age pension, the rest is money wasted, and a career choice for some. This is where we REALLY need to save money!
Hospitals: I always go to private clinics as I pay for insurance. But I do agree we need good public hospitals. Don't think we need so many administrative staff in HSE though!
Gardai: If they actually did something to deter toe-rags, they would be worth money. Required definitely
Private Sector Startup: Is the only valuable thing we currently have. Sponsoring entrepeneurs. Creating jobs and wealth... nurturing success. But of course, the socialist weasels in the unions don't like that!

Some of your points are individual gripes and there are tonnes more services, if you have a well you won't be charged for water but i know what you're saying, I agree with you about value for money, it will come allbeit slowly and at pains to a lot of people.

This latest episode in our state in a way is the kick in the ars€ the country needs to get public services sorted. Hope that shower of overpaid dodgers in the Dail can do the right thing and get on board with the general public and get positive changes sorted.

tunney

optocynic wrote: »

In theory. But how long would it take a Public Sector programmer to write and QA a bespoke piece of code, on comparison to a simple RFP process.

You are in the sector, you know about in-house project creep...

But, what do they need to develop today? I am just curious about the apps they need right now?

As someone who has worked with public sector SW developers - fcuk me they are a lazy bunch of useless cvnts. in at 1030, lunch at 1130 done at 1630. Well all the ones I've had the misfortune of working with.

optocynic

Riskymove wrote: »

still tarring everyone with the same brush?


anyway, increases in tax would affect the PS as well so why would they want that?

So... you are admitting that the PS salaries qualify them as 'successful'??

I didn't mean to tar all with the same brush.
But I would like to hear alternatives... or even fresh suggestions.

Idbatterim

Look I work in the private sector, and I am seeing businesses being decimated, staff being let go, wage cuts, people working themselves to the bone, just to keep the business afloat, its just sickening how out of touch alot of those in government and the public service are and I am not talking about those defending the PS on here (boards) in general, as I think you are probably alot more open minded and educated. Look if pay cuts are implemented and those in the PS are not happy with it leave the job, most of them would probably be unemployable, what are you going to do, leave the PS and work in the private sector? first of all good look getting a job, secondly youll probably be earning alot less and be working alot more. when I hear the word strike from the PS i laugh, they dont even have a bargaining position, they have no power! As i said before, if your not happy leave, there will be hundreds of thousands lining up for the job, who will be happy with it, and prepared to work alot harder for alot less! As I said, I wouldnt be pro cuts for the lower grades of the PS or maybe a minimal one, it would be the higher grades, people who have been there for years, who are doing nothing and hardly there on merit, that I would go after!

optocynic

tunney wrote: »

As someone who has worked with public sector SW developers - fcuk me they are a lazy bunch of useless cvnts. in at 1030, lunch at 1130 done at 1630. Well all the ones I've had the misfortune of working with.

And I have been in the same boat as you... and that is my latest experience of the PS workers. The same goes for the CLOWNS in the telecoms regulator!!

Riskymove

optocynic wrote: »

So... you are admitting that the PS salaries qualify them as 'successful'??

I didn't mean to tar all with the same brush.
But I would like to hear alternatives... or even fresh suggestions.

what do you mean by "succesful"?

I am saying that most of us pay tax, public and private, so therefore increasing tax affects us all

why would we be so against a pay cut but for more tax?

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

So... you are admitting that the PS salaries qualify them as 'successful'??

I didn't mean to tar all with the same brush.
But I would like to hear alternatives... or even fresh suggestions.

What are your suggestions? Enlighten us with your fresh suggestions?

In-house programmers cover a range of projects where I work from housing databases, planning databases, mapping+infrastructure initiative, intranet management, PHP community servers for private sector business hosting, etc, they are fundamental in running this place I can safely say.

Would you have them fired? You're knocking everything but not throwing any ideas into the ring my man, help!

optocynic

Riskymove wrote: »

what do you mean by "succesful"?

I am saying that most of us pay tax, public and private, so therefore increasing tax affects us all

why would we be so against a pay cut but for more tax?

I am talking about the Jack O'Connors of this world.. who represent you by the way... wanting to heavily tax the 'rich'... as the solution.

Increased taxes on high earners... basically penalising success!

It would only affect a small few in the PS.. or, at least that is what I would assume since it is claimed here that the PS do not earn more than the Private sector.

Removing disposable income from the well off is bordering on stupid.
Trickle down economy. It works, especially when your country is only as big as an average US city!

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

What are your suggestions? Enlighten us with your fresh suggestions?

In-house programmers cover a range of projects where I work from housing databases, planning databases, mapping+infrastructure initiative, intranet management, PHP community servers for private sector business hosting, etc, they are fundamental in running this place I can safely say.

Would you have them fired? You're knocking everything but not throwing any ideas into the ring my man, help!

Outsource it all...
To the lowest bidder.
You would get a job in the private company, because of your institutional memory.. and would probably get more money too.
It would actually cost the Public less. It would possible create new, innovative irish tech companies..

And most importantly, they would be ACCOUNTABLE!!!
All your office deadwood would be purged!

How's that for a suggestion!?

Riskymove

optocynic wrote: »

I am talking about the Jack O'Connors of this world.. who represent you by the way... wanting to heavily tax the 'rich'... as the solution.

Increased taxes on high earners... basically penalising success!

ah I see you are talking about some sort of new higher tax rate; no i wouldn't be for that at all....although i would say that many low paid private sector workers would also be for that sort of idea...very populist

jimmmy

tunney wrote: »

As someone who has worked with public sector SW developers - fcuk me they are a lazy bunch of useless cvnts. in at 1030, lunch at 1130 done at 1630. Well all the ones I've had the misfortune of working with.

:DI have met more than a few lazy overpaid ones as well....although to be fair there are some who do work hard, and I know one who is quite vocal in looking for cuts in the public service pay bill, to the dismay of his colleagues. Hats off to him. He is worth ten of those "in at 1030, lunch at 1130 done at 1630" type of people who spend half their lives on sickies, paid career breaks, etc etc. Why would anyone work hard when its the same thanks - and gold plated pension - ye get if you don't ?

optocynic

Riskymove wrote: »

ah I see you are talking about some sort of new higher tax rate; no i wouldn't be for that at all....although i would say that many low paid private sector workers would also be for that sort of idea...very populist

So, we agree on something... at last!
I am curious to hear your honest ideas for saving money in the PS.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

I have met more than a few lazy overpaid ones as well....

in the local pub is it?

Riskymove

optocynic wrote: »

So, we agree on something... at last!
I am curious to hear your honest ideas for saving money in the PS.

as oppossed to my dishonest ones? :pac:

optocynic

Riskymove wrote: »

as oppossed to my dishonest ones? :pac:

Ha... yep..
I should have wrote, 'Rational' instead of honest!

So.. let's have 'em..
I'm open minded, and always eager to hear new ideas!

Riskymove

optocynic wrote: »

Ha... yep..
I should have wrote, 'Rational' instead of honest!

So.. let's have 'em..
I'm open minded, and always eager to hear new ideas!

my views are already posted on forum threads, they are not new


1.
Public pay bill

Proper management reform, allow under and non performance to be tackled, people fired, held accountable

Bin benchmarking, never to happen again, reduce pay by removing what was given by benchmarking (or the review of High level pay as appriopriate), that way you are hit at the same level you benefitted

cap retirement lum sums at €100,000 or so (increased on review over time)

Cap pensions at say €75,000

target HSE and higher levels of administration for phasing out of posts, these are where all the expansion took place in the boom not at the frontline


2.
Welfare

reduce main benefits by 3-5% for now

Child benefit - i dont really have a preference for one of means-testing or taxation but one is needed



3.
Other cuts

reduce expenditure by 10-15% generally

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

Outsource it all...
To the lowest bidder.
You would get a job in the private company, because of your institutional memory.. and would probably get more money too.
It would actually cost the Public less. It would possible create new, innovative irish tech companies..

And most importantly, they would be ACCOUNTABLE!!!
All your office deadwood would be purged!

How's that for a suggestion!?

Be careful there, that sounds like a prophecy, Good stuff though. I'm worried here.

The road mainenance and machinery, i.e gritting, pothole filling, water mains repairs are all out sourced already along with a few more service teams and these guys are accountable, so you're suggestion to outsource has already started. It is a good way to go and keeps private sector jobs going too.

I_am_Jebus

jimmmy wrote: »

:DI have met more than a few lazy overpaid ones as well....although to be fair there are some who do work hard, and I know one who is quite vocal in looking for cuts in the public service pay bill, to the dismay of his colleagues. Hats off to him. He is worth ten of those "in at 1030, lunch at 1130 done at 1630" type of people who spend half their lives on sickies, paid career breaks, etc etc. Why would anyone work hard when its the same thanks - and gold plated pension - ye get if you don't ?

chachabinx

Lets face it most people (now note I said most) in the public sector do **** all...
Im in the private sector & work with alot of public sector organisations & I keep them up to date & then hours later I get a call off them asking whats going on... I've mailed & left voice messages & about 4 hours later they still haven't read or listened to them...
They do nothing... I do be waiting for days for replies about the simplist of things...

Also I had a friend that worked doing files & she was doing about 20 a day when she first started & then she was told by all her collegues to stop doing so much because she was showing them up...
Now she should have been doing less because she was new & only getting into it...

Kimbot

optocynic wrote: »

What on earth does the Public Sector need with a "Senior Computer Programmer" ??

To get rid of overpaid contractors and reduce their wage bill!!

Anyone want to answer my original question then on how much it would be in the private sector?

My guess would be anywhere around the €70,000 a year mark basic!!

tunney wrote: »

As someone who has worked with public sector SW developers - fcuk me they are a lazy bunch of useless cvnts. in at 1030, lunch at 1130 done at 1630. Well all the ones I've had the misfortune of working with.

I would love to know how on earth an Public servant can get away with strolling in the door at 10.30 and have their lunch at 11.30!!
Its not possible unless they are diddling the clock and if they are then they should be reported!!

Wiley1

Riskymove wrote: »

my views are already posted on forum threads, they are not new


1.
Public pay bill

Proper management reform, allow under and non performance to be tackled, people fired, held accountable

Bin benchmarking, never to happen again, reduce pay by removing what was given by benchmarking (or the review of High level pay as appriopriate), that way you are hit at the same level you benefitted

cap retirement lum sums at €100,000 or so (increased on review over time)

Cap pensions at say €75,000

target HSE and higher levels of administration for phasing out of posts, these are where all the expansion took place in the boom not at the frontline


2.
Welfare

reduce main benefits by 3-5% for now

Child benefit - i dont really have a preference for one of means-testing or taxation but one is needed



3.
Other cuts

reduce expenditure by 10-15% generally

Perfect suggestions that must have been said in one way or another 50 times by public sector workers posting on this thread. Trim the fat with these measures, it will work.