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Public sector pay: the wrong debate
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Wealth generated from taxing the private sector (for the privilage of operating in ths country) is used to pay for essential services.
I dont realy get the "privilage of operating in the country" part. As for the rest of the argument. Tax flows from the private to the public sector. Primarily it goes on wages. The wages are higher in the public sector, rather than the private sector. Clearly that is going to be an issue with private sector tax payers.
AS for the capitalist classes, it depends. Capitalism is a non-zero sum game in most cases ( although not property, or finance which just shuttle money about).
In other words if Bill the Capitalist gets rich by inventing something, he makes Bob the proletarian richer ( for instance, an emplyee of Bill Gates), If Bill the public sector worker gets richer it comes out of Bob's pocket.
We may need Bill the public sector worker, of course. If we was a policemna, a fireman, or a nurse, for instance. however we may not, if he is middle management,. And it is middle management who tend to lose their jobs in a recession in the private sector. The people with skillz tend to be ok.
Because this doesnt happen in the Public sector the pain is spread amongst worthwhile frontline troops and everybody else.0 -
optocynic wrote:And the don't do this already with their strategically placed speed traps on every major, straight and well lit road in Dublin, but none on the dark winding, narrow roads of the other counties, where most of the deaths happen??
So you agree that a target-driven revenue-returning model is a 'bad thing'?I would personally like to see target driven reforms in the PS. How can we say if it will work or not? Try it. I bet it will increase the level of service we PAY for.
I'm not utterly against incentives, and I'm quite for public sector reform. I just don't agree that importing market principles will make it all better. It introduces a whole new level of the precise administrative bulls*hit and paperwork that generally is what people are saying we should cut out of the public service. PMDS is a joke, tbqfh.
Target-chasing and faux-market systems goes for the numbers, rather than improving the service; in a hospital I know they keep beds with people who could be released, because it would cost more to treat sick people if they let them in. Which makes perfect, if perverse, sense, if you are only watching the numbers. Or you do only minor, easy operations to increase your success rate, while not treating more serious illness. Have a look at performance culture under New Labour, that's what you are talking about. No crystal ball is needed, just comparison with another regime which did this.I can't argue with the problems of managerial cost in the PS. Benchmarking PS with market driven, pro-active, entrepeneurial, risk-rewarding private business is apples and oranges...
But you accept the growing levels of managerial cost in the private sector, during a severe recession as driving up costs and reducing competitiveness?
My position is that the increased security of public sector work should be priced into the renumeration, btw. The rush by the Left to 'defend' public services, like much partisan oppositional stuff, tends to neglect the need for reform in the face of the 'threat'.0 -
The Population of Germany is just over 82million.
with 3.4 million unemployed
This is 4.2%
Now look at the Irish numbers!
1) The Irish numbers are clearly affected by the recent recession. Germany has had circa 10% unemplyment for years. Therefore low welfare does not encourage people to take up jobs. unemplyment in a recession is expected. Germany has long term unemplyment in a boom.
2) You cant divide the number of unemployed by the population, since more than half the population doesnt work and doesnt claim - children, pensioners ( germany has dispropotionalily more than Ireland), students ( Germans stay in Uni until 27 in many cases), disability, house wives or husbands who dont claim unemploymen ( they may get other benefits). So double it. Germany is now at 8% and rising.0 -
Thats an odd OP . If we ( I work in the private sector for a mutli national ) did as the OP suggests , my employer would just say goodbye and move to Poland or India .
As for public sector pay, well I certainly feel the benchmarking process did no one any favours , what exactly was it benchmarked against ? ( thats a secret more closely guarded than the formula to Coca Cola ).0 -
That is exactly what needs to be said..
But we all know, the unions have FAR too much pull with the panderers in the Government who shake at the kness at the mere mention of a strike.
Have we not learned that we need to stand strong against the Unions?
Cuiusvis hominis est errare; nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare
brian lennehan has the guts to tackle public sector pay and the unions but the gutless and utterly useless cowen is still wedded to the partnership process0 -
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So you agree that a target-driven revenue-returning model is a 'bad thing'?
Obviously the problem here is the management. I am often amazed how people think that the PS cannot be measured. The problem is that the PS is never held accoutable for propert criteria, and thus gets to measure itselg based on easily achievealbe but useless ( and/ or revenue garnering ) measures.
So the bonus for the head of the tRaffic corps, and the entire Cops should depend not on how many more people they pull in for speeding ( which wuld make them pick the easiest targets like a dual carriageway with an unusually low speed limit ) but on the number of fatalities reduced.
Similarly hospitals should not be judged on thow many beds are flowing, or people seen, or doctors availalbe but on how many lives are saved, and how many people cured, and the general health of their area.
The former could be achieved by less careful attention ( see more patients but with less care), the latter is obviously the real criteria which should be measured.0 -
Speaking of management, first stop for the knife imho should be the HSE, whose tendency to give cushy locked-in contracts to private consultants makes a mockery of them having their own internal well-paid advisors.
Again, taking what was worst with the UK quango model, and slavishly following after in true post-colonial style...
As to measurement, my point is not that it can't be measured, but that the target comes to replace the goal, as an 'unforeseen consequence'. It's arguable that this is a design/engineering problem, 'getting the targets right'.
There are international examples; Sing's policy of linking civil servant renumeration to economic performance for instance, as giving them a stake-incentive. I like your high level' general health concept, but low-level micro-management on target principles gets pretty perverse pretty fast.0 -
So you agree that a target-driven revenue-returning model is a 'bad thing'?.
If managed by Morons... YES!I'm not utterly against incentives, and I'm quite for public sector reform. I just don't agree that importing market principles will make it all better. It introduces a whole new level of the precise administrative bulls*hit and paperwork that generally is what people are saying we should cut out of the public service. PMDS is a joke, tbqfh.
Target-chasing and faux-market systems goes for the numbers, rather than improving the service; in a hospital I know they keep beds with people who could be released, because it would cost more to treat sick people if they let them in. Which makes perfect, if perverse, sense, if you are only watching the numbers. Or you do only minor, easy operations to increase your success rate, while not treating more serious illness. Have a look at performance culture under New Labour, that's what you are talking about. No crystal ball is needed, just comparison with another regime which did this.
We need private sector mentality. We can manage to reach targets, and be successful, with a minimum of buraucracy. Why can't the Public Sector adopt this?.[/quote]But you accept the growing levels of managerial cost in the private sector, during a severe recession as driving up costs and reducing competitiveness?.
I totally disagree with this. If a private sector manager does not perform, he is shown the door. Does this happen in the Public sector?My position is that the increased security of public sector work should be priced into the renumeration, btw. The rush by the Left to 'defend' public services, like much partisan oppositional stuff, tends to neglect the need for reform in the face of the 'threat'.
You can always tell a Public Sector worker.
But you can't tell him much!
And you probably have to tell him in triplicate!
Here lies the waste!0 -
Anyone who thinks Ireland is a low-cost/low wage economy needs their head examined. Come to Germany-NO MINIMUM WAGE at all here! People work for €400 a month and it's legal. Not moral IMO, but legal! And this is a perceived "high cost economy".
In Germany when your year I unemployment benefit runs out you step down to ALGII (€351 oer month plus rent paid in a SMALL apartment for a single person). That's all you get.
It encourages people to work that's for sure!
Irish people need to understand something-the standard of living to which we became accustomed (everyone believed they should own a 3 bed semi and two newish cars) was much more than most of their european neighbours would ever expect. Ireland never had a right to such wealth as the country did not and still does not produce (indiginously) things that the world wants. All Ireland does is host FDI and now that is too expensive there so it's game over unless costs fall dramatically and/or Ireland starts to develop true indiginous high value industry, like Finland for example.
It goes without saying that the public sector is way overpaid, even at the lower levels, in comparison to our european neighbours.
excellent post , it is absurd that irish consultants earn double what thier counterparts in the father land earn considering germany is a richer country than us , the same goes for police , nurses and all other ps workers , we need a reality check quick , the property boom we had is gone and wont ever be back , the revenue which allowed our ps workers claim the title of europes highest paid is dried up and the only possible way ps wages could be sustained is if thier were huge increases in income tax levels0 -
Was always amused by economic experts appearing in the media saying 'high public sector pay' and 'recession' or 'economic meltdown' in the same sentence but never actually saying the two were linked.
And it was said so often that everyone started to believe the public sector caused the economic crisis.
Very Bush administration linking Iraq and 9/11 without actually saying it for definite.
you ego is too big for this thread , not many would have the neck to bring 9-11 into a debate about ps wages but you managed it0 -
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excellent post , it is absurd that irish consultants earn double what thier counterparts in the father land earn considering germany is a richer country than us , the same goes for police , nurses and all other ps workers , we need a reality check quick , the property boom we had is gone and wont ever be back , the revenue which allowed our ps workers claim the title of europes highest paid is dried up and the only possible way ps wages could be sustained is if thier were huge increases in income tax levels
... and doesn't that just look like one of the Brian's 'Tough decisions'...
But which are really cowardly options. If you take all our money... we have nothing to spend! This is a small island... trickle-down is all that is going to work here!
Why are the Brian's scared sh!tless of SIPTU/ICTU?0 -
... and doesn't that just look like one of the Brian's 'Tough decisions'...
But which are really cowardly options. If you take all our money... we have nothing to spend! This is a small island... trickle-down is all that is going to work here!
Why are the Brian's scared sh!tless of SIPTU/ICTU?
the reasons are many but they all amount to the same thing , a loss of votes , ive said it before and il say it again , when a ps worker is sacked , the politician in that workers area risks loosing a house full of votes and perhaps several households who are related to the canned public servant , if thier is one thing we irish like , its keeping money in the family and a broke hardware store owner , farmer or panel beater who has a wife , daughter , son or even second cousin twice removed who works in the ps will back the union and public sector possition to the hilt , we are a short sighted self serving people , most of us cant see past the end of our nose , fianna fail have no idealogical love of the state sector like labour do but fianna fail know the irish people like no other party as they are the party that most reflects the irish charechet , they know that the ps vote is far bigger than the actual numbers employed by the state , its all about votes at the end of the day , which brings me to fine gael , if they had any brains at all they would be going all out for the private sector vote and to hell with all others , the rest has every other party to represent thier interests0 -
you ego is too big for this thread , not many would have the neck to bring 9-11 into a debate about ps wages but you managed it
I made a parallel between the disengenious talk that launched the iraq war to the same type of talk that led people to think that the public service caused the recession.
I could have said something about the Nazi propaganda machine but I thought i'd try to be relevant to today.0 -
I made a parallel between the disengenious talk that launched the iraq war to the same type of talk that led people to think that the public service caused the recession.
I could have said something about the Nazi propaganda machine but I thought i'd try to be relevant to today.
So, people that want to see the Public Sector streamlined and made more efficient, to save the country are..... Nazis??... Reactionary Republicans??
That's a bit of a leap! Don't you think?0 -
I'm beginning to tire of the 'debate' on public versus private wages. Most people are simply looking at it the wrong way round.
People working in the private sector shouldn't be complaining about public sector workers. They should be complaining about employers' refusal to provide the same good pay, job security and employment conditions in the private sector as those in the public sector.
An OECD study confirmed that the Irish private sector is not a high wage economy compared to the EU-15. Some public sector workers earn very high salaries, but most (low-grade civil servants, public service workers [bus drivers, bin men, etc.]) don't earn that much.
As the economy boomed, Ireland became more unequal. More and more of the wealth generated by workers went to bosses and investors while employees have had to accept less and less. We're being told to work harder, but the Irish Competitiveness Council found Irish SMEs to be very badly managed.
I think the nation's been brainwashed. Private sector workers need to take employers on for a fair deal like those in the public sector.
If only there were organisations that could campaign for better working conditions for employees...
I'm kind of inclined to agree with you up to a point. I worked for one large multinational in Ireland and when we had major problems with some very basic things like fair employment rules, access to promotional opportunities (failure to advertise vacancies, jobs for the boys, etc), annual pay increases, we tried to go to a union and use the state industrial relations machinery that is available for resolving these kind of problems, and here's what happened:
(1) The company refused point blank to engage with any state body or agency. It's view was and remains, "we have our own departments that deal with all these matters in-house"...
(2) It turned out that even though we couldn't enjoy the very fundamental courtesies that public sector workers would expect, like for example a vacancy that you might want to apply for, being advertised in your workplace, the company was completely at liberty to say, "fu*k you lads and your Labour Court and your LRC, and if you don't like it, LEAVE!"...
So I'm all for standing up for your rights, but there needs to be much stronger legislation protecting workers that feel compelled to use fair industrial relations processes and procedures to further or protetc their employment rights. I personally know fo a few cases, one being my own, where the outcome of standing up to an employer was constructive dismissal...0 -
So, people that want to see the Public Sector streamlined and made more efficient, to save the country are..... Nazis??... Reactionary Republicans??
That's a bit of a leap! Don't you think?
That is a bit of a leap alright... I wonder why YOU made it? Because i said nothing of the sort.
My point is that there seemed to be a campaign to link the recession to public service pay without actually saying it. Using tactics similar to those used by the american govenment of recent years. That's as far as my point went.0 -
I'm kind of inclined to agree with you up to a point. I worked for one large multinational in Ireland and when we had major problems with some very basic things like fair employment rules, access to promotional opportunities (failure to advertise vacancies, jobs for the boys, etc), annual pay increases, we tried to go to a union and use the state industrial relations machinery that is available for resolving these kind of problems, and here's what happened:
(1) The company refused point blank to engage with any state body or agency. It's view was and remains, "we have our own departments that deal with all these matters in-house"...
(2) It turned out that even though we couldn't enjoy the very fundamental courtesies that public sector workers would expect, like for example a vacancy that you might want to apply for, being advertised in your workplace, the company was completely at liberty to say, "fu*k you lads and your Labour Court and your LRC, and if you don't like it, LEAVE!"...
So I'm all for standing up for your rights, but there needs to be much stronger legislation protecting workers that feel compelled to use fair industrial relations processes and procedures to further or protetc their employment rights. I personally know fo a few cases, one being my own, where the outcome of standing up to an employer was constructive dismissal...
I am not for a moment discounting your story, but I also now work for a large multinational, and they take very good care of me and my team.
The only cases of constructive dismissal I have seen were with underperforming malcontents.. who wanted more money, regardless of poor performance... Thank God they didn't have SIPTU to fall on... the Multinational would have just left these shores for a more 'grown-up' workforce/society.
My experience is... work well, achieve results... and the multinational will reward you very well.0 -
That is a bit of a leap alright... I wonder why YOU made it? Because i said nothing of the sort.
My point is that there seemed to be a campaign to link the recession to public service pay without actually saying it. Using tactics similar to those used by the american govenment of recent years. That's as far as my point went.
Well... let me see.
Poor financial market regulation?.. check
Is the financial regulator a public sector body?.. check..
I think a bit of the blame goes there. But not all.
I do however think that the public sector workers need to have integrity and embrace the social 'partnership' they so vocally wanted in the past.
If we are partners in this... let's all feel the pain... equally.0 -
I am not for a moment discounting your story, but I also now work for a large multinational, and they take very good care of me and my team.
The only cases of constructive dismissal I have seen were with underperforming malcontents.. who wanted more money, regardless of poor performance... Thank God they didn't have SIPTU to fall on... the Multinational would have just left these shores for a more 'grown-up' workforce/society.
My experience is... work well, achieve results... and the multinational will reward you very well.
Unfortunately that was not my experience, and I know I worked extremely hard when I worked for a particular multinational. Where I worked, the harder you worked at your "core job", the more you were likely to remain in that job.
If you were the type of person who was inclined to attend a lot of meetings and talk about the work as opposed to actually doing the work, then you were moving in the right circles with respect to the management team and you were told about promotional opportunities in the workplace where other people would not be even made aware of these same opportunities.
To say that everyone who feels the need to take a grievance outside the workplace is a malcontent I feel is not fair on many people who are essentially placed into the role of whistleblower, when they run into corruption and sharp practice within the workplace.0 -
I totally disagree with this. If a private sector manager does not perform, he is shown the door.
Yes, we are doing this oh-so-effectively in our banking system, aren't we? Rewarding risk failure, and showing them all door public largesse. I'd be more sympathetic to the risk-reward argument i we didn' have this context, tbqfh.
You say you disagree, but not with the figures for rising compensation which are themselves damaging competitiveness. Is competitiveness what you are interested in, or merely a pretext to indulge a bias and have a bit of a rant?
As to the 'highest paid' thing, it's a great headline but can be somewhat misleading. Take Ronan Lyons on teachers, he conveniently neglects the fact that we have higher contact hours and class sizes than the countries he compares us to, and then claims 'overpaid for equivalent work'. Instead, we had a policy choice to have fewer teachers who are paid more.
Now e have some spectacularly overpaid public servants at the upper echelons, and this is what we should be hitting first; much as IBEC should be arguing for reining in managerial compensation, if they are really concerned with competitiveness.
Oh, cheers asdasd for actually making constructive suggestions on reform...0 -
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Unfortunately that was not my experience, and I know I worked extremely hard when I worked for a particular multinational. Where I worked, the harder you worked at your "core job", the more you were likely to remain in that job.
If you were the type of person who was inclined to attend a lot of meetings and talk about the work as opposed to actually doing the work, then you were moving in the right circles with respect to the management team and you were told about promotional opportunities in the workplace where other people would not be even made aware of these same opportunities.
To say that everyone who feels the need to take a grievance outside the workplace is a malcontent I feel is not fair on many people who are essentially placed into the role of whistleblower, when they run into corruption and sharp practice within the workplace.
In principal, I agree with you..
But I have been working in the corporate world for more than a little bit.. and I know that there are several types of workers.. and here in Ireland... we have lots of malcontents.
So, you were dismissed from this multinational? Can I ask the industry/sector you were in?0 -
Yes, we are doing this oh-so-effectively in our banking system, aren't we? Rewarding risk failure, and showing them all door public largesse. I'd be more sympathetic to the risk-reward argument i we didn' have this context, tbqfh.
You say you disagree, but not with the figures for rising compensation which are themselves damaging competitiveness. Is competitiveness what you are interested in, or merely a pretext to indulge a bias and have a bit of a rant?
As to the 'highest paid' thing, it's a great headline but can be somewhat misleading. Take Ronan Lyons on teachers, he conveniently neglects the fact that we have higher contact hours and class sizes than the countries he compares us to, and then claims 'overpaid for equivalent work'. Instead, we had a policy choice to have fewer teachers who are paid more.
Now e have some spectacularly overpaid public servants at the upper echelons, and this is what we should be hitting first; much as IBEC should be arguing for reining in managerial compensation, if they are really concerned with competitiveness.
Oh, cheers asdasd for actually making constructive suggestions on reform...
I don't work in the finance sector.. and I find their wild bonus culture insane. In my experience, if a manager fails to manage and get results... they are replaced.
You have to remember, that just like you Public sector don't like to all be called lazy useless overpaid buraucrats... that only a TINY percentage of Private Sector workers are bank executives..
If I get a bonus... I earn it!!! But it is then stripped bare by the tax man.. Hopefully this mentality will not last either.
If you think that is rant... God help you... what do you can Jack O'Connor's waffle??0 -
I'll tell you what I think would work a dream in this country now... An employment model or framework, set out on a legislative basis, for all employees that all employers have to sign up to... This public -vs- private debate has to be put to bed and everyone brought onto the same page in Ireland now when it comes to what entitlements people enjoy in respect of their employment...
Things like:
LEGALLY ENFORCABLE employee rights on things like information within the workplace, access to promotions, consultation and negotiation on matters affecting employees within the workplace, etc.
There should be a legally binding set up if an employee wishes to take a matter to the LRC or to the Labour Court, be it a pay dispute or any other type of a dispute. As things currently stand, all these things are set out on a voluntary basis...
I personally am not a believer in unions or the archaic work practices that unions typically are seen to stand over, but I've also seen what happens when there is no oversight whatsoever within a workplace.
I'm sure there is a happy medium somewhere, but I think its long past time that we were all dragged onto the same page in Ireland when it comes to where we work...
Some of the employers in Ireland need to be dragged into the 21st century and some of the unions need the same...0 -
I see this quite often on boards... as if we have to answer to the private sector because thay pay the tax.
We are a society - I answer to the government and so do you. Wealth generated from taxing the private sector (for the privilage of operating in ths country) is used to pay for essential services.
We are not an optional extra - we are an integral part of society.
Exactly, I have said this to many posts, Why don't we shut down the public sector for a week, save billions but sure hey don't worry about the country imploding in a week without public services. Water, Roads, Trains, Buses, Hospitals, Gardai....
Many loss making public sector services still have to operate...Look further than cutting wages...surely we're more adaptable than this...
Every post I read about this subject increases my view that it has now turned into Public V Private sector....
It's Divide and conquer that allowed Britain to own the world...We're too busy arguing with eachother than to confront the real causes of this problem.0 -
Worth a read from Union Impact...
Ireland’s largest public service union, IMPACT, today (Monday) rejected calls for public service pay cuts and said today’s ESRI report depends entirely on statistical averages that do not compare real jobs in the public or private sector. The union said that the ESRI paper, which is a re-hash of a report published last year, itself admits that its research “largely ignores job content.”
The union also said that the report uses 2006 figures, which take no account of the current public service pay freeze or the 7.5% average cut in gross pay suffered by all public servants under the so-called ‘pensions levy’. Nor does it include incomes for self-employed professionals, who are the obvious private sector ‘comparators’ for thousands of public service professional staff.
IMPACT spokesperson Bernard Harbor said: “The ESRI is on record as saying that pay should be cut in the private sector as well as the public service. The fact that this edited version of the ESRI’s 2008 paper has been re-issued now clearly suggests that it’s part of the softening up exercise for public service pay cuts in the forthcoming Budget. But the pay of private sector workers is firmly in the ESRI’s sights as well.”
IMPACT says the ESRI figures are not a true comparison of pay rates in the public and private sector because they are based solely on statistical averages, which take no account of the actual jobs undertaken by people in the various sectors.
Earlier this summer IMPACT general secretary Peter McLoone warned that his union would respond with strikes if the Government attempts to impose public service pay cuts, pension reductions or compulsory redundancies. Mr McLoone said public service workers were not responsible for the fall in public revenue and would not be singled out to pay for a budgetary crisis caused by misguided policy and sharp practice in banking, finance and property speculation.
Mr McLoone said he had told the Government that, if jobs, pay and pensions were protected, public servants would deliver the reforms necessary to protect public services from a recession created by greed and recklessness in the top echelons of the private sector. “I have been equally clear that, if the Government attempts to impose compulsory redundancies, or cuts in pay and pensions, there will be a reaction which will include sustained and widespread industrial action including strikes. I don’t believe there will be many, if any, winners if the Government takes this route, least of all among the people who – more than ever – depend on our public services,” he said.
Mr McLoone said there was a relentless campaign against public services and the people who deliver them. “Public servants’ pay has already been cut by over 7.5% this year, on top of the extra taxes and levies that they are paying along with all other workers. But the unaccountable critics of public servants, in business, universities and the media, are back again a few months later demanding more. We are going to make a stand if the Government adopts these policies,” said Mr McLoone.0 -
I already stated that the measures introduced under Harz IV (Arbeitslosengeld II) are a recent invention so saying that Germany has had high unemployment for years and therefore Harz IV doesn't encourage people to work, is a bit silly really. I would also point out that Germany doesn't "massage" the figures like some countries. Quote from Wikipedia (German economy);Even though I actually think that Ireland's social welfare payments are too high, particularly for those who haven't paid in, your point here is clearly invalid.
You said that low social welfare reduces the unemplyment rate. It was pointed out that Germany has high unemplyment, and has had it for years. So your point is disporven unless you can prove that other factors outweight the supposed advantgage of low welfare payments.Germany's national unemployment rate is only partially comparable to unemployment rates in the United Kingdom or United States, because it includes a significant share of part-timers, who work less than 15 hours a week. Everyone working less than 15 hours a week, who is seeking and available for a job with full social security insurance (normally full-time job or part-time above 15 hours a week), can be registered as unemployed. Around one quarter of Germany's national unemployment are underemployed part-timers0 -
This is what ends up happening when your whole economy is based on FDI and the government fails to encourage indiginous industry. private sector workers in Germany are in a much stronger position as Germany itself is a "quality brand" and people like to buy stuff with "made in germany" on it. A Mercedes made in China is just not the same and if Mercedes decided to up sticks and move away everyone would know about it and their sales would decline.I'm kind of inclined to agree with you up to a point. I worked for one large multinational in Ireland and when we had major problems with some very basic things like fair employment rules, access to promotional opportunities (failure to advertise vacancies, jobs for the boys, etc), annual pay increases, we tried to go to a union and use the state industrial relations machinery that is available for resolving these kind of problems, and here's what happened:
(1) The company refused point blank to engage with any state body or agency. It's view was and remains, "we have our own departments that deal with all these matters in-house"...
(2) It turned out that even though we couldn't enjoy the very fundamental courtesies that public sector workers would expect, like for example a vacancy that you might want to apply for, being advertised in your workplace, the company was completely at liberty to say, "fu*k you lads and your Labour Court and your LRC, and if you don't like it, LEAVE!"...
So I'm all for standing up for your rights, but there needs to be much stronger legislation protecting workers that feel compelled to use fair industrial relations processes and procedures to further or protetc their employment rights. I personally know fo a few cases, one being my own, where the outcome of standing up to an employer was constructive dismissal...
Having said earlier than people can often work for very low wages here, people with real skills and qualifications to back them up are generally well paid. It's quite a fair system-if you make an effort to educate yourself you will be alright. if you don't, you'll get a menial job for low money. In Ireland people with low/zero qualifications still thought themselves entitled to a 3 bed semi and new car. It doesn't add up.0 -
private sector workers in Germany are in a much stronger position as Germany itself is a "quality brand" and people like to buy stuff with "made in germany" on it. A Mercedes made in China is just not the same and if Mercedes decided to up sticks and move away everyone would know about it and their sales would decline.
Germany definitely has a brand ( as does France, and Italy).
England doesn't, nor even America ( i.e. Software is never advertised as sourced in America, though a lot of silicon valley work is top rate). We are too late to that party I think, at least in terms of industrial goods. No matter how developed Ireland became, or becomes, people will still have the bucolic idea - and thats good for food, not industry.
in terms of developing industry I suggested some time ago that the State get into venture capitalism, is a big way, rather than the piecemeal way we do know.0 -
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...but fcuk them and strike anyway, eh Mr. McLoone?Union Head wrote:I have been equally clear that, if the Government attempts to impose compulsory redundancies, or cuts in pay and pensions, there will be a reaction which will include sustained and widespread industrial action including strikes. I don’t believe there will be many, if any, winners if the Government takes this route, least of all among the people who – more than ever – depend on our public services.
Public servants (I believe) broadly accept and acknowledge that the money is simply not there to maintain the levels of spending and it cannot be generated by simply increasing private sector taxes. Public sector expenditure needs to be cut, now we can either cut jobs and make those remaining work harder or cut pay across the board or a combination of both, but something needs to give or Ireland will go broke.0
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