Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Public sector pay: the wrong debate
Options
Comments
-
I_am_Jebus wrote: »The point you are missing, is that the public service often provides a very different kind of service to what a private can or does. Believe me, I and the other staff in my area of work, work beyond the hours required for no extra pay. This work is ongoing for the past three years and with the resources available we are not able to manage the work load. Senior management are aware of it but they're hands are tied.
even with extra hours being put into it we can't provide the level of service required. So instead we are looking at other ways to keep the ship afloat. So we hope to approach our customers and say, listen we can take all your queries (phone/email/letter) on a friday and answer any questions you might have. But we can;t do it the rest of the week because we are working on processing your service. That way, we hope that with constant uninterrupted (i.e. from phone calls) work flows Mon - Thurs we hope to speed up the processing of your service request and get the end result to you quicker.
A non cost related approach to a major problem seems like an inovative (if simple) way of handling problems to me. Sorry you don't agree.
The part of your quote I've highlighted in bold is a serious "greater than thou" bullsh1t attitude that lends nothing to the discussion to be honest.
in what way is the service provided by the public sector different to that of the private sector , please elaborate on this , i presume you are not refering to courtesy or regard for the customer because that would be bull****0 -
I have to go back to this again lads, sorry for hanging out of the argument... It's now 20.34 and I'm still in work, I've had an hour or two today where the pressure was off, but I've been in here since 6:00 this morning and I'll be here 12 tonight.
I got home for a bit of dinner earlier and I turn on the television and I see some pr*ck telling me that he is telling the teachers, teachers that have a 3 month paid holiday in the summer, that they are not to meet parents of school kids outside of school hours. Then the next article is another bearded pr*ck telling me that his is going on strike for a 3.5% pay increase, are these guys banging up on fu*kin heroin or something?!?!? Whatever they are smoking, can someone let me know what it is and where I can get some???
:mad::mad::mad:0 -
I think its been shown here that the vast majority of people complaining about salary cuts etc in the private sector have not actually had them. There are a couple of posters who know of people who have been cut - but not that many it has to be said.
I know noone i work with, or anyone in any companies i work with have experienced anything, bar the odd wage freeze.
you wouldnt believe in china men if you never sat next to one0 -
I have to go back to this again lads, sorry for hanging out of the argument... It's now 20.34 and I'm still in work, I've had an hour or two today where the pressure was off, but I've been in here since 6:00 this morning and I'll be here 12 tonight.
I got home for a bit of dinner earlier and I turn on the television and I see some pr*ck telling me that he is telling the teachers, teachers that have a 3 month paid holiday in the summer, that they are not to meet parents of school kids outside of school hours. Then the next article is another bearded pr*ck telling me that his is going on strike for a 3.5% pay increase, are these guys banging up on fu*kin heroin or something?!?!? Whatever they are smoking, can someone let me know what it is and where I can get some???
:mad::mad::mad:
you have no voice to represent you but i suspect you know that already
we need a thatcher in this country and we need one fast0 -
you have no voice to represent you but i suspect you know that already
we need a thatcher in this country and we need one fast
I don't particularly mind not having representation. I don't mind the long hours, what I do mind though is sitting down for a dinner for the first time since last Wednesday and turning on the TV and some SIPTU jippo telling me he's putting people on strike for a 3.5% pay increase, and another muppet saying that at a time when we desparately need flexibility and to pull together, we get some loo-laa saying that he is telling all the teachers to go on a work to rule. Are these guys on class A drugs???0 -
Advertisement
-
hallelujajordan wrote: »Oh, come off it . . 165,000 people added to the live register since this time last year, all of them coming from the private sector.
Estimates are that about 10% of employees who have kept their job in the private sector have had pay cuts...
. .
Every single one from the private sector?? I think not, I can tell you now that I know of 7 contract staff that have been let go from the LA since January, So to say all of the job losses are from the private sector is just not true.
100% of people in the public sector have taken a pay cut in the form of the pension levy and the 1% income levy.0 -
-
We need to stop using language like, "private sector" and "public sector", and start looking at what rights we want people working in Ireland, to have...
We need go get everyone onto the same page and set out minimum rights for all workers in Ireland. Of course employers, whether public or private sector, can be free to offer entitlements over and above those minimum entitlements set out on a legislative basis, but this thing where one half of the country is highly unionised and the other half are afraid to even talk to a news reporter in the event of redundancies, because their employer told them not to, we're on a road to a hiding there with that set up...
This not being allowed to talk to the press also exists in Local Authorites, as far as I understand there are 3 People allowed to discuss business with the press, 1. County press officer 2.Environmental Awarness Officer and 3. The County secretary that i know of.
You are right completely about peoples working rights though, we should have something in place. The Unions are making it impossible to achieve any of this with their heads up thier arses though. They are representing themselves not the workers at this stage.
Impact union walked out on pension levy talks, what message did that send the employees that are supporting this union, pure gobsh*tes as Podge and Rodge would say.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »Bizzarre . . so ALL income should be taxed . . those on the minimum wage will pay the same rate of tax as someone paying €40k . . Are you serious or taking the p1ss. .
I don't know where to start; such a policy is so ludicrous it is hardly worth arguing. . .
You misquote me.
Whether or not we agree what amount of tax they pay, you will agree though that since they dont pay the same tax as a higher rate tax payer they are actually being carried by those who pay more tax?
By the way, someone on €40k pays less than 25% in taxes.0 -
This not being allowed to talk to the press also exists in Local Authorites, as far as I understand there are 3 People allowed to discuss business with the press, 1. County press officer 2.Environmental Awarness Officer and 3. The County secretary that i know of.
You are right completely about peoples working rights though, we should have something in place. The Unions are making it impossible to achieve any of this with their heads up thier arses though. They are representing themselves not the workers at this stage.
Impact union walked out on pension levy talks, what message did that send the employees that are supporting this union, pure gobsh*tes as Podge and Rodge would say.
What I'm talking about private sector employees being afraid of talking to the press, is one incident I saw recently of RTE camera's outside a certain multinational which announced redundancies, and they couldn't find one single person who would come in front of a camera and say what they thought on a personal level, about possibly losing their job.
Eventually they found one lad who was driving into work and hadn't known that the company had told those already in work that they were not to talk to the press, and they got a few words out of him. This is indiciative of the kind of mentality that some employers in this country have towards their employees.
If you even tried to say to someone in the CPSU that they were not allowed to talk to the press in a personal capacity in respect of their employment situation, if you so wished to make a statement, there would be an immediate work stoppage and most likely a strike.
There is no reason on earth why anyone should be told not to talk to the press in relation to their own personal circumstances. Everyone living in this state has a constitutionally guaranteeed right to free speech.
The point I'm making is that there is a chasm of grand canyon proportions, between the kind of working norms associated with public sector employment positions and those in the private sector.
The incident I refer to above is simply indiciative of that huge chasm that has us all fighting like cats now in this place that we find ourselves in.
We need to decommission the language of "private" and "public" sector and have the same rules in operation for all workers, especially with regard to union RECOGNITION as opposed to union membership rights for workers.0 -
Advertisement
-
What I'm talking about private sector employees being afraid of talking to the press, is one incident I saw recently of RTE camera's outside a certain multinational which announced redundancies, and they couldn't find one single person who would come in front of a camera and say what they thought on a personal level, about possibly losing their job.
Eventually they found one lad who was driving into work and hadn't known that the company had told those already in work that they were not to talk to the press, and they got a few words out of him. This is indiciative of the kind of mentality that some employers in this country have towards their employees.
If you even tried to say to someone in the CPSU that they were not allowed to talk to the press in a personal capacity in respect of their employment situation, if you so wished to make a statement, there would be an immediate work stoppage and most likely a strike.
There is no reason on earth why anyone should be told not to talk to the press in relation to their own personal circumstances. Everyone living in this state has a constitutionally guaranteeed right to free speech.
The point I'm making is that there is a chasm of grand canyon proportions, between the kind of working norms associated with public sector employment positions and those in the private sector.
The incident I refer to above is simply indiciative of that huge chasm that has us all fighting like cats now in this place that we find ourselves in.
We need to decommission the language of "private" and "public" sector and have the same rules in operation for all workers, especially with regard to union RECOGNITION as opposed to union membership rights for workers.
Well said Daragh, whatever happened to fressdom of speech, and the chasm as you call it is only getting wider, and people on both sides are getting angrier toward one another, It's the old English way of divide and conquer that the government are using, imo....let's loose the attitudes on both sides and accept changes and move forward.0 -
Every single one from the private sector?? I think not, I can tell you now that I know of 7 contract staff that have been let go from the LA since January, So to say all of the job losses are from the private sector is just not true.
100% of people in the public sector have taken a pay cut in the form of the pension levy and the 1% income levy.
so what , whats your point , if every one in sean quinns house took a 58% pay cut , the quinns would still be earning many hundreds of multibples of what most people in the private sector earn but then i suspect your line about 100% of ps workers having taken a pay cut is just another union fed slogan you heard at union camp earlier in the year and that you have never given any real thought to this shallow one liner , it still doesnt change the fact that the ps wage bill is too high and that it comes from the taxes paid by the private sector which has shed jobs by the hundreds of thousands in the past 18 mths , the ps wage bill and the level it reached was only made possible by the short term phoney property boom we had , we were only a rich country by european standards because we employed one in four in construction for a brief period which saw building , buying and selling houses as our primary product , its really that simple , the high wages in the ps were brought about by one thing , well two if you include bertie ( the gift the kept on giving) aherne
property property property . that time and place is now a whole other country0 -
so what , whats your point , if every one in sean quinns house took a 58% pay cut , the quinns would still be earning many hundreds of multibples of what most people in the private sector earn but then i suspect your line about 100% of ps workers having taken a pay cut is just another union fed slogan you heard at union camp earlier in the year and that you have never given any real thought to this shallow one liner , it still doesnt change the fact that the ps wage bill is too high and that it comes from the taxes paid by the private sector which has shed jobs by the hundreds of thousands in the past 18 mths , the ps wage bill and the level it reached was only made possible the short term phoney property boom we had , we were only a rich country by european standards because we employed one in four in construction for a brief period which saw building , buying and selling houses as our primary product , its really that simple , the high wages in the ps were brought about by one thing , well two if you include bertie ( the gift the kept on giving) ahere
property property property
I'll tell you what my point it, I have taken a pay cut and so have everyone who pays the pension levy, to mention Sean Quinn is just silly.
I don't like the unions or what they are at but whether they are right or wrong we have taken a pay cut, just like the private sector want.
That's my point, nothing to do with property, we were talking about pay in the public sector.
I understand the PS wage bill is too high but taking from the bottom and working up isn't the way to do it when you see what middle management earn and what they do. I'm not against reform at all but it needs to be fairly and evenly distributed, what else can I say to you...0 -
-
Every single one from the private sector?? I think not, I can tell you now that I know of 7 contract staff that have been let go from the LA since January, So to say all of the job losses are from the private sector is just not true.
100% of people in the public sector have taken a pay cut in the form of the pension levy and the 1% income levy.
Contractors are private sector workers.
I have seen no redundancies within the permanent public sector;
Increased levies are not paycuts, they are increases in taxes that generally affect all citizens. The pension levy is a specific case where the government recognised (far too late in my opinion) that they were giving the public sector a massive perk that ought to have been taxed. The 7% differential brought by the levy has narrowed (slightly) the gap between public and private sectors but there is far more required.0 -
Well said Daragh, whatever happened to fressdom of speech, and the chasm as you call it is only getting wider, and people on both sides are getting angrier toward one another, It's the old English way of divide and conquer that the government are using, imo....let's loose the attitudes on both sides and accept changes and move forward.
That's exactly what is happening, once we are all fighting with each other, then we can never hope to stand up and fight the government. We should not tolerate a situation where there is this huge and literally immeasurable gap between the terms & conditions of private and public sector workers.
Whatever fundamental right one group of workers has, the other group should have the same right. If one group of workers can claim union recognition in the workplace, then the other group of workers must be able to also claim that right...0 -
NewDubliner wrote: »Yet the banks are still raking in the mortgage repayments.
Of course they are, and will they let people out of fixed rate without an extorionate penalty, Nope....what the hell is the point to bailing out the banks with public money if the government don't attach certain conditions, Imagine the disposable income that would pour back into the country (Retail) if everyone had more to spend.
I believe someone tried to petrol bomb the dept of finance the other day, if things keep going the way they are that will be the way of the country soon. After all the human race is only 3 meals deep they say.....0 -
Benchmarking was a massive con job. The whole country got stitched up by the "social partners". Look at who was around the table. Govt (on top tier ps wages, their personal advisors (ditto), their senior civil servants (ditto) the trade union reps- dominated by PS reps (guess how their pay is rated- go on do). And then we wonder how PS wages grew out of all proportion?
Benchmarkingh suited so well. Take a nurse on 30k. she gets 10% 33k. Meanwhile, a minister/advisor/secretary of dept gets 10% - 200 =10% 20k increase. A joke.
Bertie expanded the PS by 70k . Where are they? not doctors, nurses, teachers or guards. Faceless pen-pushers, bloating public spending so that Govt revenue this year equals that in 2002-, 3, or 4, depending on how many nil payment slips they get on Oct 31. In those years we had a budget surplus, now we're 37bn short.
A bright child would grasp what seems to elude IMPACT. Either cut wages, or shed jobs, but the spend must drop or the country goes down the plughole.0 -
Whatever fundamental right one group of workers has, the other group should have the same right. If one group of workers can claim union recognition in the workplace, then the other group of workers must be able to also claim that right...
Corretc, and the word attached to a situation where some people have some rights and others don't is DISCRIMINATION....
We are all Irish citizens and should be afforded exactly the same rights across the board, Every Garda station in the country has a copy of the basic human rights hanging on the wall.0 -
I'll tell you what my point it, I have taken a pay cut and so have everyone who pays the pension levy, to mention Sean Quinn is just silly.
I don't like the unions or what they are at but whether they are right or wrong we have taken a pay cut, just like the private sector want.
That's my point, nothing to do with property, we were talking about pay in the public sector.
I understand the PS wage bill is too high but taking from the bottom and working up isn't the way to do it when you see what middle management earn and what they do. I'm not against reform at all but it needs to be fairly and evenly distributed, what else can I say to you...
you took a tiny pay cut , a tiny one , even every ps worker in the country took a 9% pay cut , it would still be tiny compared to what is needed
we are not a richer country than the uk , netherlands or finland , our teachers , nurses , consultants or guards should not be earning 30% more than in those countries which are richer than us , we were very rich at one time but surely the ps didnt believe a country could remain the best performing in europe by merley building , buying and selling houses indefinatley0 -
Advertisement
-
Join Date:Posts: 17315
Average - 45k.
That comes with no job security, no guaranteed pension and the threat of being fired if you are not up to scratch.
Okay,
STAFF OFFICER is the grade in the civil service.
Now here is the payscale start to finish:
€34,941 €36,466 €37,839 €39,075 €40,317 €41,566 €42,821 €44,025
€45,168¹ €46,655²
So you start at 34941 and can go up to a max of 46655 a year. The average starting in the private sector is 45000 and can go a lot higher!!
Compare like for like and the public/private debate is a joke.0 -
Wendell Gee wrote: »Benchmarking was a massive con job. The whole country got stitched up by the "social partners". Look at who was around the table. Govt (on top tier ps wages, their personal advisors (ditto), their senior civil servants (ditto) the trade union reps- dominated by PS reps (guess how their pay is rated- go on do). And then we wonder how PS wages grew out of all proportion?
Benchmarkingh suited so well. Take a nurse on 30k. she gets 10% 33k. Meanwhile, a minister/advisor/secretary of dept gets 10% - 200 =10% 20k increase. A joke.
Bertie expanded the PS by 70k . Where are they? not doctors, nurses, teachers or guards. Faceless pen-pushers, bloating public spending so that Govt revenue this year equals that in 2002-, 3, or 4, depending on how many nil payment slips they get on Oct 31. In those years we had a budget surplus, now we're 37bn short.
A bright child would grasp what seems to elude IMPACT. Either cut wages, or shed jobs, but the spend must drop or the country goes down the plughole.
It's a scary thought Wendell but you may be the most "on the button" poster i've read today. How do we get to the point where we can save us going under? or we'll all be saying "how did we let it get this far"0 -
Wendell Gee wrote: »Benchmarking was a massive con job. The whole country got stitched up by the "social partners". Look at who was around the table. Govt (on top tier ps wages, their personal advisors (ditto), their senior civil servants (ditto) the trade union reps- dominated by PS reps (guess how their pay is rated- go on do). And then we wonder how PS wages grew out of all proportion?
Benchmarkingh suited so well. Take a nurse on 30k. she gets 10% 33k. Meanwhile, a minister/advisor/secretary of dept gets 10% - 200 =10% 20k increase. A joke.
Bertie expanded the PS by 70k . Where are they? not doctors, nurses, teachers or guards. Faceless pen-pushers, bloating public spending so that Govt revenue this year equals that in 2002-, 3, or 4, depending on how many nil payment slips they get on Oct 31. In those years we had a budget surplus, now we're 37bn short.
A bright child would grasp what seems to elude IMPACT. Either cut wages, or shed jobs, but the spend must drop or the country goes down the plughole.
Only in Ireland would something called "Social Partnership", be dreamed up to stand for something that the MAJORITY of people working in Ireland were actually excluded from.
But here's the other reality that I can speak about. I've a good mate who is a paramedic working for the HSE. He has a modest house and a girlfriend, they live together and both of them are working. Last month, the two of them had to go through the house looking for loose change behind sofa's and under bed's to meet the mortgage payment.
Neither are particularly well paid, modest incomes and modest standards of living, but yet they are tearing their house apart to come up with the mortgage???
I think we need to ask ourselves, is this how any of us would like to live, whether we are a paramedic working for the HSE or a sheet metal worker based in the Ballymount Industrial Estate???
My answer would be no, there is no dignity in living in this way, so we need to have a national and FULLY INCLUSIVE debate in Ireland now as to how we want to live as humans in Ireland at this time.
We need to reject the Social Partnership Process which is nothing other than a process that has represented the vast MINORITY of workers in Ireland.0 -
Okay,
STAFF OFFICER is the grade in the civil service.
Now here is the payscale start to finish:
€34,941 €36,466 €37,839 €39,075 €40,317 €41,566 €42,821 €44,025
€45,168¹ €46,655²
So you start at 34941 and can go up to a max of 46655 a year. The average starting in the private sector is 45000 and can go a lot higher!!
Compare like for like and the public/private debate is a joke.
Johnny there is absolutely nobody starting in an office job in the private sector these days on 45K, forget it, it isn't happening...0 -
you took a tiny pay cut , a tiny one , even every ps worker in the country took a 9% pay cut , it would still be tiny compared to what is needed
we are not a richer country than the uk , netherlands or finland , our teachers , nurses , consultants or guards should not be earning 30% more than in those countries which are richer than us , we were very rich at one time but surely the ps didnt believe a country could remain the best performing in europe by merley building , buying and selling houses indefinatley
We were talking about pay cuts and I told you my scenario.
We as a couple are down €380 a month, I think that's a bit bigger than tiny, We have already talked this to death today but basically one of the biggest revenue generators the country has is retail so how by taking workers disposable income do you expect workers to support retail?
You can't spend what you don't have. Both sectors agree that taxing the country to the hilt isn't going to pull us though smiling.
Everyone knew the bubble would burst, I'm with you, tell me something I don't know, How many houses can one country build with a population of only 4.4 million. Of course it had to end.
Me and you should grab Bertie and ask him what the hell was he playing at, He saw the writing on the wall and kept shtum....0 -
Okay,
STAFF OFFICER is the grade in the civil service.
Now here is the payscale start to finish:
€34,941 €36,466 €37,839 €39,075 €40,317 €41,566 €42,821 €44,025
€45,168¹ €46,655²
So you start at 34941 and can go up to a max of 46655 a year. The average starting in the private sector is 45000 and can go a lot higher!!
Compare like for like and the public/private debate is a joke.
Yeah, but presumably this is only if you stay at the same level of STAFF OFFICER and never get promoted so your data is a little distorting.
In my organisation, if you stay at the same level you can expect year-on-year increases of no more than about 3% . . . The more fundamental difference is that if you are still at the same level after 5 years, it is likely that you are not performing and you will be kicked out on your arse. Public sector pay scales, and the idea that you have a job for life regardless of performance is in principle no different to the idea of unvouched expenses . .0 -
Only in Ireland would something called "Social Partnership", be dreamed up to stand for something that the MAJORITY of people working in Ireland were actually excluded from.
But here's the other reality that I can speak about. I've a good mate who is a paramedic working for the HSE. He has a modest house and a girlfriend, they live together and both of them are working. Last month, the two of them had to go through the house looking for loose change behind sofa's and under bed's to meet the mortgage payment.
Neither are particularly well paid, modest incomes and modest standards of living, but yet they are tearing their house apart to come up with the mortgage???
I think we need to ask ourselves, is this how any of us would like to live, whether we are a paramedic working for the HSE or a sheet metal worker based in the Ballymount Industrial Estate???
My answer would be no, there is no dignity in living in this way, so we need to have a national and FULLY INCLUSIVE debate in Ireland now as to how we want to live as humans in Ireland at this time.
We need to reject the Social Partnership Process which is nothing other than a process that has represented the vast MINORITY of workers in Ireland.
Amen to that. Where do I sign.0 -
the wage of a nurse in the ireland is on par with a nurse in the u.k, or have we forgot that the uk pumped billions of sterling into the economy to devalue its currency. Nurse in the u.k will earn £2000 per month, irish nurse will earn 2300 euro! I have the payslips if anyone would like them! i do not disagree that there is many perks in certain aspects of the public sector, but as a nation we should be concerned about our health/education and public order. I cannot comment on other memebrs of the public sector and their perks, but the perks in the nursing profession is this country is little or none.0
-
Okay,
STAFF OFFICER is the grade in the civil service.
Now here is the payscale start to finish:
€34,941 €36,466 €37,839 €39,075 €40,317 €41,566 €42,821 €44,025
€45,168¹ €46,655²
So you start at 34941 and can go up to a max of 46655 a year. The average starting in the private sector is 45000 and can go a lot higher!!
Compare like for like and the public/private debate is a joke.
Well, sher, if its that much of a certainty, then all the public sector workers about to get a paycut now can just leave and go start on 45,000 in the private sector.
Sorted fiend.0 -
Advertisement
-
hallelujajordan wrote: »Contractors are private sector workers.
I have seen no redundancies within the permanent public sector;
Increased levies are not paycuts, they are increases in taxes that generally affect all citizens. The pension levy is a specific case where the government recognised (far too late in my opinion) that they were giving the public sector a massive perk that ought to have been taxed. The 7% differential brought by the levy has narrowed (slightly) the gap between public and private sectors but there is far more required.
How do you make that out, they weren't self employed, the LA paid their wages therefore they were in the public sector.
You're right, the governments should foresee these huge wage changes and keep control of spending, the simple fact is that this didn't happen, the government squandered your money and my money be it stamp duty or VAT on the pint and now you're suggesting that they have another bite at us through our wages (again), Talks of interest rate hikes are all around too, you will see houses standing idle with ex public sector owners. Is that the way to go?? I'm perplexed with this conversation.....0
Advertisement