Public sector pay: the wrong debate

hallelujajordan · 29-09-2009 10:59pm

Wiley1 wrote: »

How do you make that out, they weren't self employed, the LA paid their wages therefore they were in the public sector.

You're right, the governments should foresee these huge wage changes and keep control of spending, the simple fact is that this didn't happen, the government squandered your money and my money be it stamp duty or VAT on the pint and now you're suggesting that they have another bite at us through our wages (again), Talks of interest rate hikes are all around too, you will see houses standing idle with ex public sector owners. Is that the way to go?? I'm perplexed with this conversation.....

I don't know how it works in the LA's but if they are contractors and are paid a daily or hourly rate then technically they are self-employed and operate in the private sector.

The pains you outline are the same for everyone . . we are all going to suffer if interest rates increase etc and there will be as many homeless private sector workers as public sector ones (actually probably far more given the rate jobs are being shed in the private sector). The only difference is that public sector salaries are for no good reason disproportionately higher and job security is a given. Given the state of the countries balance sheet it is no longer appropriate to maintain this inequity . .

Wiley1 · 29-09-2009 11:07pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I don't know how it works in the LA's but if they are contractors and are paid a daily or hourly rate then technically they are self-employed and operate in the private sector.

The pains you outline are the same for everyone . . we are all going to suffer if interest rates increase etc and there will be as many homeless private sector workers as public sector ones (actually probably far more given the rate jobs are being shed in the private sector). The only difference is that public sector salaries are for no good reason disproportionately higher and job security is a given. Given the state of the countries balance sheet it is no longer appropriate to maintain this inequity . .

Ok I understand the crossed wire here, they were hired and then fired by the LA, they were on an LA contract that wasn't renewed.

Public sector jobs are not secure by any means, they are at the descretion of the minister, he can wipe out any public sector job he sees that isn't viable. That's a fact.

Post your wages and deductions and i'll do the same and we'll compare the differences, think of it as an exercise to fuel the fire if you like. I bet you that there won't be a massive difference.

There are well grants, house extension grants, non essential housing repair grants, non essential road building schemes still going on that could be halted or looked into before going straight for the throat of the average Joe worker, tonnes of massive money saving options there with public money.

hallelujajordan · 29-09-2009 11:51pm

Wiley1 wrote: »

Post your wages and deductions and i'll do the same and we'll compare the differences, think of it as an exercise to fuel the fire if you like. I bet you that there won't be a massive difference.

No, posting my salary will achieve nothing and comparing it to yours makes absolutely no sense unless we are doing the same type of job, have the same level of responsibility and have the same type of experience. For all you know I could be a binman or a CEO in a multimillion dollar organisation (I wish

)

Davidth88 · 30-09-2009 7:26am

You know SIPTU and the other unions ( Public Sector ) need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Have they not seen the budget figures , where exactly do they expect their 3.5% to come from , thin air ?

We are all hurting right now , I have lost a large chunk of my take home pay in extra levies/taxes , and I am quite a bit worse off than this time last year .

I am paying a good portion of my salary into a pension that is worth less now than it was 2 years ago thanks to the volitity of the markets ( ok pensions are a long term thing blah blah )

I am worried about my job on a daily basis , I have said goodbye to about 1/3 of the workforce in my workplace in the last year !

Then these total twits come on and bleat they want 3.5% increase !

MaceFace · 30-09-2009 7:28am

Wiley1 wrote: »

Of course they are, and will they let people out of fixed rate without an extorionate penalty, Nope....what the hell is the point to bailing out the banks with public money if the government don't attach certain conditions, Imagine the disposable income that would pour back into the country (Retail) if everyone had more to spend.

I believe someone tried to petrol bomb the dept of finance the other day, if things keep going the way they are that will be the way of the country soon. After all the human race is only 3 meals deep they say.....

Why the hell should we bail out people on fixed rate mortgages. Do you not understand that to allow a person to go from a fixed rate to a lower variable rate early actually costs the bank money as they would have factored this interest rate in when they borrowed the money themselves?

Don't get me started on people who have fixed rate mortgages - they knew exactly what they were doing and if they didn't they should have!
If the variable rate was higher than the fixed rate, would you have these people complaining? Of course not!

MaceFace · 30-09-2009 7:31am

jonny24ie wrote: »

Okay,

STAFF OFFICER is the grade in the civil service.

Now here is the payscale start to finish:

€34,941 €36,466 €37,839 €39,075 €40,317 €41,566 €42,821 €44,025
€45,168¹ €46,655²

So you start at 34941 and can go up to a max of 46655 a year. The average starting in the private sector is 45000 and can go a lot higher!!

Compare like for like and the public/private debate is a joke.

Average starting in the private sector? What?
I said the average wage for a Senior Programmer with 10 years experience was 45k, but maybe it is 5-10k higher.

I know someone who left IT when the dot com bubble burst to go into the public sector. Went in for less money because she knew she had a job for life with great perks. I considered doing it myself because of the pressure in the private sector when all around you are losing your jobs and you are just wondering when you will be gone.

optocynic · 30-09-2009 9:09am

I_am_Jebus wrote: »

What is most?

I have been in the public sector for almost 6 years.

While I have come across a handful of deadwood/braindead or whatever you want to call them, individuals. It's certainly far from most. My area has been understaffed for the past few years and just got worse due to a combination of decentralisation and the moratorium.

Now we are trying to implement emergency processes for dealing with the workload, such as dedicating one day a week to take calls from the public/customers and notifying them that we can't take calls the rest of the week.

None of this kind of thing is spoken about though.

What are your current weekly working hours?
What are the hours fo which you will take the calls from the public/customer?

optocynic · 30-09-2009 9:14am

miju wrote: »

clever move if you think about it . There'll be usual gnashing of teeth and last minute all night talks.

End result ???? Pay claim will be dropped by union and HSE workers wages won't be dropped further and other unions will then follow suit so no further wage cut will arrive in public sector for forseeable future.

Both sides will then be able to claim victory

.. and of course... both side still think it's the 70's.. and we are all stupid enough to believe this crap!

Tipp Man · 30-09-2009 9:21am

gdael wrote: »

Actually, you are costing us money (if you arent earning a substantial salary).

The more you earn the more tax you pay. If you are in a job where you pay little or no tax then you are getting a free ride from the rest of us.

Those on the higher tax rate are carrying all those on the lower or no rate.

Yet its the ones on the lower rate screaming the loudest.
ALL income needs to be taxed. There should be no more people getting away with paying tax. Thats whats breaking the country.

Let me tell you i am paying a lot of tax at the higher rate so nobody is carrying me let me tell you

optocynic · 30-09-2009 9:24am

I_am_Jebus wrote: »

In relation to your last sentence. I'd ask that you might elaborate a bit further. But I hope you're not trying to suggest that the public sector is not wholly inflexible and is an underperformer.

Now bear in mind, I am talking about a specific example of one area of the public service. A tiny %. I won't disagree that there are people in the PS that underperform/are not value for money/are not flexible. But I can't tar everyone with the same brush and you shouldn't either.

As regards the rest of your post, well the nature of the work and services is very different with the typical private sector company. You can't compare like with like in this instance really. The public service is, by it's nature a different entity altogether in a lot of ways. e.g. most sections of the thousands in the public service do not exist to create revenue/make profit etc...

I didn't hear complaints about it when benchmarking was introduced to the Public Sector's absurd benefit!

optocynic · 30-09-2009 9:31am

gdael wrote: »

The same computer programmer with 10 years experience where i work would be on minimum €55K + 7.5% pension contribution + Bonus of anything from 5% - 10%.

I have a team on developers reporting to me. And the Team Lead is on 55k, and then benefits of about 13k.
The Rest of the guys would be on an average of 45k, plus benefits of 10k.

The difference here is, I have let people go, who didn't perform to the standards I expect!

optocynic · 30-09-2009 9:35am

Darragh29 wrote: »

I don't particularly mind not having representation. I don't mind the long hours, what I do mind though is sitting down for a dinner for the first time since last Wednesday and turning on the TV and some SIPTU jippo telling me he's putting people on strike for a 3.5% pay increase, and another muppet saying that at a time when we desparately need flexibility and to pull together, we get some loo-laa saying that he is telling all the teachers to go on a work to rule. Are these guys on class A drugs???

Yes. It is called lack of respect and Integrity!

optocynic · 30-09-2009 9:42am

NewDubliner wrote: »

Yet the banks are still raking in the mortgage repayments.

You're still going on about your mortgage. Good lord man... grow up!
What do you want? To stop paying your mortgage? Let the banks collapse?

That is so stupid, I can hardly believe I am still typing......

Wiley1 · 30-09-2009 9:42am

MaceFace wrote: »

Why the hell should we bail out people on fixed rate mortgages. Do you not understand that to allow a person to go from a fixed rate to a lower variable rate early actually costs the bank money as they would have factored this interest rate in when they borrowed the money themselves?

Don't get me started on people who have fixed rate mortgages - they knew exactly what they were doing and if they didn't they should have!
If the variable rate was higher than the fixed rate, would you have these people complaining? Of course not!

Begrudgery again, I'm thinking of a single mother I know that was advised to go fixed, she did and is struggling to keep the house with her 2 girls, she's not a mortgage expert and only did what she was advised to do, Should she have to pay 15k to get out of it?

People have no compassion in this country anymore, Celtic tiger has created a shi**y attitude and killed the old ways

Wiley1 · 30-09-2009 9:44am

hallelujajordan wrote: »

No, posting my salary will achieve nothing and comparing it to yours makes absolutely no sense unless we are doing the same type of job, have the same level of responsibility and have the same type of experience. For all you know I could be a binman or a CEO in a multimillion dollar organisation (I wish )

Fair enough

optocynic · 30-09-2009 9:47am

jonny24ie wrote: »

Okay,

STAFF OFFICER is the grade in the civil service.

Now here is the payscale start to finish:

€34,941 €36,466 €37,839 €39,075 €40,317 €41,566 €42,821 €44,025
€45,168¹ €46,655²

So you start at 34941 and can go up to a max of 46655 a year. The average starting in the private sector is 45000 and can go a lot higher!!

Compare like for like and the public/private debate is a joke.

Staff Officer does not equate to senior programmer in the private sector.
A senior programmer had dpomain expertise of at least 5 years, plus programming expertise of at least 10 years...

optocynic · 30-09-2009 9:58am

Wiley1 wrote: »

Begrudgery again, I'm thinking of a single mother I know that was advised to go fixed, she did and is struggling to keep the house with her 2 girls, she's not a mortgage expert and only did what she was advised to do, Should she have to pay 15k to get out of it?

People have no compassion in this country anymore, Celtic tiger has created a shi**y attitude and killed the old ways

While agree with you on the loss of compassion bit Wiley... and that your friend is in a horrible situation... that is not what begrudgery is.

Begrudgery (or the great Irish passtime as I call it).. is the hating of success...

I posted this before, but Bono put ot best

"In America, if they see a rich man in a big house on a hill, they say, 'I wanna be him'... in Ireland, we say ' I wanna get him!'... "

We expect the successful to carry the water for us all here, without realising that, they create the jobs, they create the money... it is them that will save us from economic ruin... not the people on welfare, and definitely not the unions!

MaceFace · 30-09-2009 10:04am

Wiley1 wrote: »

Begrudgery again, I'm thinking of a single mother I know that was advised to go fixed, she did and is struggling to keep the house with her 2 girls, she's not a mortgage expert and only did what she was advised to do, Should she have to pay 15k to get out of it?

People have no compassion in this country anymore, Celtic tiger has created a shi**y attitude and killed the old ways

I am sorry for this womans predicament and do have the utmost sympathy for anyone who is struggling to pay a mortgage (due to their changed circumstances outside of their control) but I do not think it would be fair for the likes of me or you to have to cover her mortgage.

I have very little sympathy for laziness or stupidity which is what so many people in this country suffer from:
* Oh, I was badly advised.
* I didn't want the money - they threw it at me
* I thought prices would go up for ever
* The politicians said there would be a soft landing - when have they ever lied?

Simple thruth is we ALL lost the run of ourselves and we are all paying for it now. ALL OF US.

When I bought my house I made sure I could cover repayments if either myself or my partner lost my job or the interest rates went > 5%. I also made sure my mortgage repayments at 3% would leave me with enough money to live a decent life. That is why I am living in a commuter county.

I know a bank manager and he the stories he has of people coming in saying they can not pay their mortgage but yet have Sky Sports or smoke or go drinking every weekend - people need to sort out their priorities.

jimmmy · 30-09-2009 10:36am

miju wrote: »

The only person who paid for that Oz holiday is the woorker themselves. The way the scheme works is that the worker doesnt get their first "lump sum" for 6 months after they take their break.

If the government pays someone in the public service up to € 36,000 to take a "career break", as they are now doing, it does not matter if the person availing of it pays for the round the world trip now or in 6 months time.....the fact is, the money can still be traced back to coming from the govt. And where does the govt get the money to write cheques , do you think

?

As I said before if someone would pay me to holiday in Oz + the southern hemisphere for 3 years I would'nt say no

miju wrote: »

And FWIW it is a BRILLIANT thing if you want to travel or raise kids thats WHY the government brought it in. So people like the above would take the paid break and therefore reduce weekly outgoings for the Government wage bill.

If / when the IMF moves in, , will it not be cheaper - and better value for the country - just to make underworked people in the public service redundant rather than pay them up to 36 grand to take a break, before they return on full pay ?

Riskymove · 30-09-2009 10:42am

jimmmy wrote: »

As I said before if someone would pay me to holiday in Oz + the southern hemisphere for 3 years I would'nt say no

as i have said there is a very low uptake on this scheme, the people in the main who are availing of it are either (a) people who had planned to go travelling anyway and (b) people going on maternity leave/have young children

the other thing is that you are not guaranteed a return after the 3 years, you could have to wait up to a further year (at no pay) to get back in (especially in the current situation re filling of posts)

and it is cheaper than paying them full salaries or if they were made redundant

jimmmy · 30-09-2009 10:52am

Riskymove wrote: »

as i have said there is a very low uptake on this scheme,

It would be great to know the uptake on the scheme.
Any statistics ?

Riskymove wrote: »

the people in the main who are availing of it are either (a) people who had planned to go travelling anyway and (b) people going on maternity leave/have young children

the 2 people I know availing of the scheme are in the above....so is it not a waste of up to 36 grand of taxpayers money to give them that handout ? They think its money from heaven.

Riskymove wrote: »

the other thing is that you are not guaranteed a return after the 3 years, you could have to wait up to a further year (at no pay) to get back in (especially in the current situation re filling of posts)

The 2 people I know taking it are of the opinion they will get their job back when they want it.

irish_bob · 30-09-2009 11:20am

Wiley1 wrote: »

We were talking about pay cuts and I told you my scenario.
We as a couple are down €380 a month, I think that's a bit bigger than tiny, We have already talked this to death today but basically one of the biggest revenue generators the country has is retail so how by taking workers disposable income do you expect workers to support retail?

You can't spend what you don't have. Both sectors agree that taxing the country to the hilt isn't going to pull us though smiling.

Everyone knew the bubble would burst, I'm with you, tell me something I don't know, How many houses can one country build with a population of only 4.4 million. Of course it had to end.

Me and you should grab Bertie and ask him what the hell was he playing at, He saw the writing on the wall and kept shtum....

you dont have to defend yourself against me with personal details , the debate with me is not in anyway personal and if it comes across that way , i assure you , it is not intentional , baschically my point is that because public sector workers ON AVERAGE are better paid to the tune of 20% , a 7% cut in the form of a levy is really quite trivial even every single one of them in the country took a cut , i realise it may not be trivial to some who are not on big wages but the same ps workers on low wages would not be earning anymore if they were working in the private sector , reports show they would actually be earning less and certainly would have not the same advantages regarding pensions , this economy through most of this decade was a one trick pony and because that pony ( property ) is now dead lieing in a ditch somewhere , it is beyond the tax payer in the current enviroment to pony up the funds required to maintain the ps wage bill at the level to which it rose to during the boom , our problem is one of basic arithmetic , sure thier can be loopholes closed so that the super rich dont have the tax avoidance schemes available to them , tony o reilly and denis o brien should be stripped of thier citizenship if they continue to be so unpatriotic as to not be an equal contributor but squeezing those relative few wont make up the deficit , everyone is going to have to take pain and serious pain in some cases , seeing that the state is now the largest stakeholder in the banks , some deal could surely be done so as people who face pay cuts wont loose thier homes , extreme situations call for extreme measures , we will have to be a lot cleverer from now on and the 1st start should be to dump those turkeys who are in power out on thier ear as soon as possible

irish_bob · 30-09-2009 11:35am

behan29 wrote: »

the wage of a nurse in the ireland is on par with a nurse in the u.k, or have we forgot that the uk pumped billions of sterling into the economy to devalue its currency. Nurse in the u.k will earn £2000 per month, irish nurse will earn 2300 euro! I have the payslips if anyone would like them! i do not disagree that there is many perks in certain aspects of the public sector, but as a nation we should be concerned about our health/education and public order. I cannot comment on other memebrs of the public sector and their perks, but the perks in the nursing profession is this country is little or none.

nurses in ireland earn at least 25% more than in the uk , i have a relative in wales who has been an nurse since 1986 , hes on slightly more now than a nurse here earns starting off

Dozen Wicked Words · 30-09-2009 12:17pm

irish_bob wrote: »

nurses in ireland earn at least 25% more than in the uk , i have a relative in wales who has been an nurse since 1986 , hes on slightly more now than a nurse here earns starting off

Nurses in Ireland get a decent wage.

4 years to train to become a Registered Irish Nurse (3 of those unpaid). Pay the nursing board every year for the honour, pay for our own uniform and laundry of said uniform. Pay a union every year for our insurance. Work unsociable hours, nights, weekends, holidays.

You are doing an excellent job of showing how Undervalued staff in the NHS are. Ask your cousin, he will say he should be on more than he is.

I am sure nurses in the 3rd world are paid much less too. Answer is the same, they should also be paid much more.

As I said right at the start, Nursing is not poorly paid in Ireland and I will never say it is, but being paid more than a country who doesn't pay their staff enough, in a currency which means this month we get xx more, next month only xx, is not beneficial to your argument.

Nurses in the Private Sector are also on a comparable wage, so this a dig at Nursing wages rather than Public Sector Nursing wages? You are annoyed that an IT worker in Private sector gets less than Public sector, or a clerical PS worker earns more than a Private worker, but the market is wrong in healthcare because it pays similar in the Public and Private sector, I thought you would be happy there is no disparity.

Wiley1 · 30-09-2009 12:35pm

optocynic wrote: »

While agree with you on the loss of compassion bit Wiley... and that your friend is in a horrible situation... that is not what begrudgery is.

Begrudgery (or the great Irish passtime as I call it).. is the hating of success...

I posted this before, but Bono put ot best

"In America, if they see a rich man in a big house on a hill, they say, 'I wanna be him'... in Ireland, we say ' I wanna get him!'... "

We expect the successful to carry the water for us all here, without realising that, they create the jobs, they create the money... it is them that will save us from economic ruin... not the people on welfare, and definitely not the unions!

I agree with you on this one opto

Wiley1 · 30-09-2009 12:38pm

MaceFace wrote: »

I am sorry for this womans predicament and do have the utmost sympathy for anyone who is struggling to pay a mortgage (due to their changed circumstances outside of their control) but I do not think it would be fair for the likes of me or you to have to cover her mortgage.

I have very little sympathy for laziness or stupidity which is what so many people in this country suffer from:
* Oh, I was badly advised.
* I didn't want the money - they threw it at me
* I thought prices would go up for ever
* The politicians said there would be a soft landing - when have they ever lied?

Simple thruth is we ALL lost the run of ourselves and we are all paying for it now. ALL OF US.

When I bought my house I made sure I could cover repayments if either myself or my partner lost my job or the interest rates went > 5%. I also made sure my mortgage repayments at 3% would leave me with enough money to live a decent life. That is why I am living in a commuter county.

I know a bank manager and he the stories he has of people coming in saying they can not pay their mortgage but yet have Sky Sports or smoke or go drinking every weekend - people need to sort out their priorities.

I do agree with you completely, we need to get our own houses in order, I do think that the banks could be more obliging with these kinds of people seeing as at the end of the day she's a taxpayer and is essentially paying out to help the banking sector.

granturismo · 30-09-2009 12:43pm

Take Mr T's advice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx5p_wv_izo

Wiley1 · 30-09-2009 12:47pm

irish_bob wrote: »

you dont have to defend yourself against me with personal details , the debate with me is not in anyway personal and if it comes across that way , i assure you , it is not intentional , baschically my point is that because public sector workers ON AVERAGE are better paid to the tune of 20% , a 7% cut in the form of a levy is really quite trivial even every single one of them in the country took a cut , i realise it may not be trivial to some who are not on big wages but the same ps workers on low wages would not be earning anymore if they were working in the private sector , reports show they would actually be earning less and certainly would have not the same advantages regarding pensions , this economy through most of this decade was a one trick pony and because that pony ( property ) is now dead lieing in a ditch somewhere , it is beyond the tax payer in the current enviroment to pony up the funds required to maintain the ps wage bill at the level to which it rose to during the boom , our problem is one of basic arithmetic , sure thier can be loopholes closed so that the super rich dont have the tax avoidance schemes available to them , tony o reilly and denis o brien should be stripped of thier citizenship if they continue to be so unpatriotic as to not be an equal contributor but squeezing those relative few wont make up the deficit , everyone is going to have to take pain and serious pain in some cases , seeing that the state is now the largest stakeholder in the banks , some deal could surely be done so as people who face pay cuts wont loose thier homes , extreme situations call for extreme measures , we will have to be a lot cleverer from now on and the 1st start should be to dump those turkeys who are in power out on thier ear as soon as possible

Good points, well put. We do need clarity of vision from the top down and working as a electorate we should oust the "turkeys"

I also agree with you fully about pay scales, and reductions but alas my main gripe is that the guys earning the most in the public sector won't really be affected as much as the grass roots worker. So a fair system put in place even (most likely will) paycuts for all has to be done, and what's more it should be done quickly to try and balance the books.

Patriots like those guys with the big dollars also need to be encouraged to move most if not all possible business they own or operate to Ireland.

Take the Indians for an example moving to the Uk or anywhere, most if not all the money for investment comes from India and they all help eachother out to move forward together, I admire this and wish that type of thinking existed in a big way in this country, Not being rasict but look after Ireland number 1.

irish_bob · 30-09-2009 1:08pm

dooferoaks wrote: »

Nurses in Ireland get a decent wage.

4 years to train to become a Registered Irish Nurse (3 of those unpaid). Pay the nursing board every year for the honour, pay for our own uniform and laundry of said uniform. Pay a union every year for our insurance. Work unsociable hours, nights, weekends, holidays.

You are doing an excellent job of showing how Undervalued staff in the NHS are. Ask your cousin, he will say he should be on more than he is.

I am sure nurses in the 3rd world are paid much less too. Answer is the same, they should also be paid much more.

As I said right at the start, Nursing is not poorly paid in Ireland and I will never say it is, but being paid more than a country who doesn't pay their staff enough, in a currency which means this month we get xx more, next month only xx, is not beneficial to your argument.

Nurses in the Private Sector are also on a comparable wage, so this a dig at Nursing wages rather than Public Sector Nursing wages? You are annoyed that an IT worker in Private sector gets less than Public sector, or a clerical PS worker earns more than a Private worker, but the market is wrong in healthcare because it pays similar in the Public and Private sector, I thought you would be happy there is no disparity.

my mum is a retired nurse , she didnt take four years to qualify , nurses now are over qualified and this is one of the reasons they dont change beds any more , nurses assitants do it , they see themselves as too educated to take part in traditional roles , many of the new degrees which have entered the nursing profession are little more than vanity projects

as i said , over qualified

Dozen Wicked Words · 30-09-2009 1:19pm

irish_bob wrote: »

my mum is a retired nurse , she didnt take four years to qualify , nurses now are over qualified and this is one of the reasons they dont change beds any more , nurses assitants do it , they see themselves as too educated to take part in traditional roles , many of the new degrees which have entered the nursing profession are little more than vanity projects

as i said , over qualified

Not sure about your local hospital, all are different. We make our own beds, we don't have (think you mean) Care Assistants. We wash the patients, we feed the patients. Look forward to seeing what you think a Nurses role should be. Personal care is important, so other than that?

Your mother would have taken 3 years to qualify if she was a registered nurse. I also took 3 years to qualify. Her wage would have been paltry and she would have been undervalued, did your Mum think she was paid enough?

Can you answer the question I posed, are you concerned about Nurses wages being too high generally in Ireland. So even in the the haloed world of the Private Sector they are paid too much? So its not about the Public/Private pay divide at all, its Nurses wages that worries you?

Public sector pay: the wrong debate

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