Public sector pay: the wrong debate

jimmmy

dooferoaks wrote: »

I also took 3 years to qualify. Her wage would have been paltry and she would have been undervalued

Most wages were paltry 20 or 30 or 40 years ago, certainly compared to modern wages. Who is to say who feels undervalued....most people probably do at some stage. Would a nurse feel undervalued if she / he paid a pittance towards their pensions say 20 or 30 years ago and now may have a pension pot worth 750,000 when they retire, including their tax free year and a halves salary ?

Dozen Wicked Words

I am not saying whether she felt undervalued, I'm saying Nurses WERE undervalued whether they "felt" it or not.

MaceFace

dooferoaks wrote: »

I am not saying whether she felt undervalued, I'm saying Nurses WERE undervalued whether they "felt" it or not.

Nurses are underpaid and the proof is the number of them emigrating to other countries once they qualify and us having to replace them with nurses from poorer countries.

Saying that, I think front line staff play on our emotions too much as our involvement and experience with them are generally in traumatic times.
They, like most other people in society who started in a career knew what the job entailed and how much it paid, and anyone who complains about pay or conditions is wrong (unless either of them deteriorated).

Dozen Wicked Words

I dont complain about my pay or conditions, nor does anyone I work with. What the Unions say is usually for their own benefit.

The reason most Nurses are in Unions is to cover their insurance against claims. The INO and SIPTU do little or nothing for the average nurse, our ward suffered the closure of beds, 6 nurses taken out of the roster (including 4 whos contracts were not renewed - job losses are happening in nursing). The Union did nothing.


Edit:
Anyway, this is off topic. So I wont add anything else, I think others are also taking it off topic with an apparent grudge against a profession rather than Public/Private Sector Pay. What I, or anyone else say isn't going to change their view, so enough said.

irish_bob

dooferoaks wrote: »

Not sure about your local hospital, all are different. We make our own beds, we don't have (think you mean) Care Assistants. We wash the patients, we feed the patients. Look forward to seeing what you think a Nurses role should be. Personal care is important, so other than that?


Your mother would have taken 3 years to qualify if she was a registered nurse. I also took 3 years to qualify. Her wage would have been paltry and she would have been undervalued, did your Mum think she was paid enough?

Can you answer the question I posed, are you concerned about Nurses wages being too high generally in Ireland. So even in the the haloed world of the Private Sector they are paid too much? So its not about the Public/Private pay divide at all, its Nurses wages that worries you?

my mum retired when she got married so she is retired a long time but she was a nurse for around ten years and yes she did think she was well paid at the time , she thinks nurses are extremley well paid now and thinks they dont work as hard as they used to either , i do think they work hard , i suffer from bad health and i have been in hospital many times , they work hard but they are paid very well , many in ireland work as hard but are not paid aswell , lifes tough

nurses wages are too high compared to the uk which is a richer country than us , we were only rich for a short time in this decade due to a freakish property bubble , our economy was a one trick pony and building houses was our primary national product , all wage rises in the public sector including that of nurses were only made possible due to the revenue generated by this property boom , teachers and guards are also too highly paid compared to the uk and other european countries which are wealthier than ireland , that is my problem with nurses

irish_bob

dooferoaks wrote: »

I am not saying whether she felt undervalued, I'm saying Nurses WERE undervalued whether they "felt" it or not.

who appointed you as under valued gauger , as far as im concerned , its an entirely subjective thing

irish_bob

MaceFace wrote: »

Nurses are underpaid and the proof is the number of them emigrating to other countries once they qualify and us having to replace them with nurses from poorer countries.

Saying that, I think front line staff play on our emotions too much as our involvement and experience with them are generally in traumatic times.
They, like most other people in society who started in a career knew what the job entailed and how much it paid, and anyone who complains about pay or conditions is wrong (unless either of them deteriorated).

name one country where nurses would earn more than in ireland , absolute nonsesne that they are under paid , they average around a grand a week which is tremendous money if you ask me considering you dont have to be anything special at school to make it as a nurse , the majority of nurses would not be able to earn as much outside nursing , nurses are however under paid compared to guards however , any donkey who is willing to toe the party line , lick ass and play politics can do that job , especially if your based in rural ireland , what they earn in this country is a scandal and the vast majority of them would be consigned to working as labourers on building sites were they not pulling for no tax displayed for a living

Kimbot

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yeah, but presumably this is only if you stay at the same level of STAFF OFFICER and never get promoted so your data is a little distorting.

In my organisation, if you stay at the same level you can expect year-on-year increases of no more than about 3% . . . The more fundamental difference is that if you are still at the same level after 5 years, it is likely that you are not performing and you will be kicked out on your arse. Public sector pay scales, and the idea that you have a job for life regardless of performance is in principle no different to the idea of unvouched expenses . .

Its not distorting, I am comparing like for like and the difference is nowhere near 50% in favour of the public sector like the media are making people think it is.

MaceFace wrote: »

Average starting in the private sector? What?
I said the average wage for a Senior Programmer with 10 years experience was 45k, but maybe it is 5-10k higher.

I know someone who left IT when the dot com bubble burst to go into the public sector. Went in for less money because she knew she had a job for life with great perks. I considered doing it myself because of the pressure in the private sector when all around you are losing your jobs and you are just wondering when you will be gone.

Average wage is about 45k, max in the public sector is around that. What I am pointing at is that the report in the media that says public are 50% better paid than private is a load of cr@p! Its about the same.

optocynic wrote: »

Staff Officer does not equate to senior programmer in the private sector.
A senior programmer had dpomain expertise of at least 5 years, plus programming expertise of at least 10 years...

Well, Staff Officer (Senior Computer Programmer). Thats the grade used in the Civil service. I didn't say it equated to anything other than that.

jimmmy

jonny24ie wrote: »

What I am pointing at is that the report in the media that says public are 50% better paid than private is a load of cr@p! Its about the same.

There are plenty of examples where the gap is higher than 50%, so the 50% better pay in the public service is more like the average...and takes in to account other factors which you do not, like the shorter working week in the public service too.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

There are plenty of examples where the gap is higher than 50%,

Link please.

MaceFace

jonny24ie wrote: »

Average wage is about 45k, max in the public sector is around that. What I am pointing at is that the report in the media that says public are 50% better paid than private is a load of cr@p! Its about the same.

Can I ask an honest question then - if that is the max wages, why would an IT person join the civil service?

NewDubliner

MaceFace wrote: »

Can I ask an honest question then - if that is the max wages, why would an IT person join the civil service?

They don't, or not the really good ones.

IT in the civil service is a dead-end job. All the cool stuff is done by well-managed contractors. They're still being hired, albeit at a reduced charge of around €600/day.

behan29

Off topic slightly on thread, i work as a nurse and after 7 years qualified i earn between 500/600 euro per week. I agree you dont need to do anything special at school to get into the profession(i think its 400 points+ in the leaving). Once qualified and you then go through the rigors of specialist nurses nurse, i can assure you that a certain level of education is required. I know many other public/private workers and their wages are massive in comparision to a nurses wage.

W1ct0ry

Wiley1 wrote: »

Am I complaining about my mortgage you muppet? Read the post again!

I'm saying that cuts are needed and are taking place as we speak, you're too blind to see the wood for the trees, the cuts ARE happening.

This thread is a waste of time, offering some alternatives and an agreeable opinion to change and still the bullsh*t. Do you want the shirt off me back too?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055696701

waah waah "This guy said a boo boo ban him please"

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bonkey

Take a week off.

potlatch

In the context of this discussion, John FitzGerald's findings contradict the picture of a private sector enduring seething cuts in the face of public sector pay rises.

Note how today's article in the Irish Times reporting the CSO claim that public sector pay is 19% higher than the private sector is based on 2007 figures - pre-crash figures.

I think neither side has a full handle on what's happening, to be honest. But there's certainly dishonesty coming from IBEC and ISME.

gdael

potlatch wrote: »

In the context of this discussion, John FitzGerald's findings contradict the picture of a private sector enduring seething cuts in the face of public sector pay rises.

Note how today's article in the Irish Times reporting the CSO claim that public sector pay is 19% higher than the private sector is based on 2007 figures - pre-crash figures.

I think neither side has a full handle on what's happening, to be honest. But there's certainly dishonesty coming from IBEC and ISME.

I have worked in IBEC. Dont ever trust any data that comes from there. Its massaged and cherry picked so much. Ive never seen a more dishonest company, and thats saying a lot.

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

I have worked in IBEC. Dont ever trust any data that comes from there. Its massaged and cherry picked so much. Ive never seen a more dishonest company, and thats saying a lot.

Since when is IBEC, where you have worked allegedly, a company, the clue is in the name, its a confederation

optocynic

Tipp Man wrote: »

Since when is IBEC, where you have worked allegedly, a company, the clue is in the name, its a confederation

And forget IBEC... what about ISME?...

They say 45% of Private sector workers have taken a 10% cut (on average)... I know of much heavier cuts..
My mother had taken 2 cuts in the last 12 months.. both @ 15%...
That 26.25% less than she was taking home this time last year..

Tipp Man

optocynic wrote: »

And forget IBEC... what about ISME?...

They say 45% of Private sector workers have taken a 10% cut (on average)... I know of much heavier cuts..
My mother had taken 2 cuts in the last 12 months.. both @ 15%...
That 26.25% less than she was taking home this time last year..

Well according to Gdael there are no pay cuts happening, anoyone with a skill who has lost their job is getting a new job very fast and he then produced this little gem of a quote whilst speaking for half the country

gdael wrote: »

The rest of the private sector is doing just fine im happy to report.

you couldn't dream it

optocynic

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well according to Gdael there are no pay cuts happening, anoyone with a skill who has lost their job is getting a new job very fast and he then produced this little gem of a quote whilst speaking for half the country

"the private sector is doing just fine thank you very much"

you couldn't dream it

WOW... with insight like that.. maybe he can predict tonights Euromillions numbers too!

slimjimmc

Tipp Man wrote: »

Since when is IBEC, where you have worked allegedly, a company, the clue is in the name, its a confederation

Since 28/05/1934 when it was registered with the Companies Registration Office as a Limited Company .

Bottom left corner from http://www.ibec.ie/

Irish Business and Employers Confederation
IBEC Limited is registered in Ireland. Registration No. 8706
Registered directors: Donal Byrne, Anthony O'Brien, Breege O'Donoghue
Registered address: Confederation House 84/86 Lower Baggot Street Dublin 2
Phone +353 (0)1 605 1500 Fax +353 (0)1 638 1500 Email info@ibec.ie

gurramok

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well according to Gdael there are no pay cuts happening, anoyone with a skill who has lost their job is getting a new job very fast and he then produced this little gem of a quote whilst speaking for half the country

Agree. 160,000 in the private sector took a 100% paycut, i know a couple of them as would alot of people know people who lost their jobs.

seangal

well i have to say that none of my friends or family have taking a paycut
most of them work in private sector
SIPTU who support both private and public sector havew reported the following
10 % of workers have take a pay cut
10 % have recieved a pay rise yes a pay rise
80 % have had no change
i have had no change

optocynic

seangal wrote: »

well i have to say that none of my friends or family have taking a paycut
most of them work in private sector
SIPTU who support both private and public sector havew reported the following
10 % of workers have take a pay cut
10 % have recieved a pay rise yes a pay rise
80 % have had no change
i have had no change

I doubt SIPTU did proper analysis.
ISME claim that 45% of private sector workers have taken a pay cut.
This doe not include the 160,000 that have take the ultimate pay cut either.

Now, I don't want to call SIPTU leader liars... but if the shoe fits!!

murphaph

seangal wrote: »

well i have to say that none of my friends or family have taking a paycut
most of them work in private sector
SIPTU who support both private and public sector havew reported the following
10 % of workers have take a pay cut
10 % have recieved a pay rise yes a pay rise
80 % have had no change
i have had no change

SIPTU represent f*ck all private sector workers tbh. The vast, vast majority of private sector workers are non-union.

Anyway, the country can't afford the public service at the current price. That's the nub of the issue and will remain so. We cannot run the national debt right back up to 80's levels. We must cut costs, either through pay cuts, redundancies or both. Jacking up taxes won't cut it (although I believe some tax rises are inevitable and I'm already paying new taxes (NPPR etc.)

Tipp Man

slimjimmc wrote: »

Since 28/05/1934 when it was registered with the Companies Registration Office as a Limited Company .

Bottom left corner from http://www.ibec.ie/

Yep you are indeed correct, apologies to all

InReality

potlatch wrote: »

I'm beginning to tire of the 'debate' on public versus private wages. Most people are simply looking at it the wrong way round.

People working in the private sector shouldn't be complaining about public sector workers. They should be complaining about employers' refusal to provide the same good pay, job security and employment conditions in the private sector as those in the public sector.

An OECD study confirmed that the Irish private sector is not a high wage economy compared to the EU-15. Some public sector workers earn very high salaries, but most (low-grade civil servants, public service workers [bus drivers, bin men, etc.]) don't earn that much.

As the economy boomed, Ireland became more unequal. More and more of the wealth generated by workers went to bosses and investors while employees have had to accept less and less. We're being told to work harder, but the Irish Competitiveness Council found Irish SMEs to be very badly managed.

I think the nation's been brainwashed. Private sector workers need to take employers on for a fair deal like those in the public sector.

If only there were organisations that could campaign for better working conditions for employees...

Agree completely.

The private sector workers who get exploited are those not in unions.

The ones who post anti-public sector stuff are the ones in good jobs and don't need unions.

optocynic

InReality wrote: »

Agree completely.

The private sector workers who get exploited are those not in unions.

The ones who post anti-public sector stuff are the ones in good jobs and don't need unions.

And getting a good job, is, of course very easy!!

gdael

InReality wrote: »

Agree completely.

The private sector workers who get exploited are those not in unions.

The ones who post anti-public sector stuff are the ones in good jobs and don't need unions.

If you are good at your job, you dont need a union.
You will always have options.

I would consider myself in a good job and i would be of the opinion that the public sector have taken more than their fair share of the pain.