Public sector pay: the wrong debate

MysticalRain

Pay cuts come in a different forms. The market rates for various professions have dropped significantly during the downturn. So someone who gets hired for a job in the morning will probably be on less than what they would have been on a year ago. It's not counted as a "pay cut". But the net effect is the same regardless.

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

If you are good at your job, you dont need a union.
You will always have options.

I would consider myself in a good job and i would be of the opinion that the public sector have taken more than their fair share of the pain.

how exactly have the public sector had more than their fair share of pain?? please explain in detail the pain they have suffered

gdael

Tipp Man wrote: »

how exactly have the public sector had more than their fair share of pain?? please explain in detail the pain they have suffered

Oh please.
Have you been asleep since the last budget?

murphaph

gdael wrote: »

Oh please.
Have you been asleep since the last budget?

The crappy pension levy? Hardly a tough set of cuts, not even one redundancy!

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

Oh please.
Have you been asleep since the last budget?

Details please off all the pain the public sector have suffered

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

not even one redundancy!

Neither the financial sector nor the government want redundancies. That's why the pressure is on for pay cuts and looking for volunteers to leave early, even if it's among the most productive and expensively trained staff.

If pay is merely cut, mortgage protection policies don't get called on, saving insurers a fortune. The banks won't be faced with major defaults. If people lose their jobs, the insurers must pay or the banks face defaults. Either way, the financial sector loses.

For the government, having to cut jobs in those 'decentralised' offices that they created in various ministers' constituences would lose them many rural votes in addition to the huge number of Dublin votes they've already lost.

MaceFace

NewDubliner wrote: »

Neither the financial sector nor the government want redundancies. That's why the pressure is on for pay cuts and looking for volunteers to leave early, even if it's among the most productive and expensively trained staff.

If pay is merely cut, mortgage protection policies don't get called on, saving insurers a fortune. The banks won't be faced with major defaults. If people lose their jobs, the insurers must pay or the banks face defaults. Either way, the financial sector loses.

For the government, having to cut jobs in those 'decentralised' offices that they created in various ministers' constituences would lose them many rural votes in addition to the huge number of Dublin votes they've already lost.

Yeah and the CIA killed Kennedy and man didn't land on the moon.

It is much easier to explain:
Every redundancy from the public sector = loss of tax from the individual (~20k) and payout in social welfare (10-20k).

Tipp Man

MaceFace wrote: »

Yeah and the CIA killed Kennedy and man didn't land on the moon.

It is much easier to explain:
Every redundancy from the public sector = loss of tax from the individual (~20k) and payout in social welfare (10-20k).

your forgetting the saving in wages of 70k, so net saving 40k or more for government. sounds ok

gdael

Tipp Man wrote: »

Details please off all the pain the public sector have suffered

Please dont take the lazy way out. If you cant read, im not going to read the thread for you.
Read through the rest of this thread and open your eyes.

optocynic

gdael wrote: »

Please dont take the lazy way out. If you cant read, im not going to read the thread for you.
Read through the rest of this thread and open your eyes.

A levy on a ridiculously lucrative and guaranteed pension is not pain...
It was FAR overdue.. and is in my opinion.. to little for such an outragous perk..

In the private sector... ANY perk gets raped with BIK!!!

gdael

optocynic wrote: »

In the private sector... ANY perk gets raped with BIK!!!

Not true.

We get 7.5% towards pension from our company. No BIK on that.

We get an Annual bus and rail commuter ticket fully paid for from the company. No BIK on that.

We get a company doctor for free. No BIK.

There are also several other smaller perks that are not subject to BIK.

We do pay BIK on Club membership allowance , Meal allowance , Accomodation allowance.
Not sure about health insurance (company pay VHI for the employee plus all their family), but i think there is BIK on that.

The non BIK benefits are worth more than the BIK'd benefits.

I hope people were listening to the news yesterday about how the private sector is not as badly off as we seem to make out we are. IBECs massaged data gathering and reporting system is going to come out to haunt them. Its disgraceful. I really hope someone who still works in there, leaks the specs and the code to that system. There would be a massive scandal. Bigger than any other scandal this year.

NewDubliner

Tipp Man wrote: »

your forgetting the saving in wages of 70k, so net saving 40k or more for government. sounds ok

And the staff member gets replaced by a €750/day contractor.

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

Please dont take the lazy way out. If you cant read, im not going to read the thread for you.
Read through the rest of this thread and open your eyes.

so basically you have nothing bar the pension levy - is that all you've got???

and please don't insult me with your lazy crap, i want details of all the pain the public sector have suffered - your making the claim so back it up or are you too lazy???

Tipp Man

NewDubliner wrote: »

And the staff member gets replaced by a €750/day contractor.

I'm talking about axing the position not just the person

gdael

Tipp Man wrote: »

so basically you have nothing bar the pension levy - is that all you've got???

and please don't insult me with your lazy crap, i want details of all the pain the public sector have suffered - your making the claim so back it up or are you too lazy???

Im not trying to insult you. Its just the way you are. I guess you're just one of those people not motivated to seek out fairness, but just to pull other down to your level, instead of helping yourself up. You are not alone in that attitude in this country.

There are numerous examples, even just in this thread, of how the public sector have been screwed. Including several that you have replied to. So you are fully aware of them and me mentioning them for you again is just a waste of time, because you will conveniently ignore them again.

murphaph

I must have missed all this public sector pain as well. I guess I'm lazy too

The PS pension should be further reformed. It should be a defined contribution scheme like most everyone else. That should come in with immediate effect.

Would you agree gdael?

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

The PS pension should be further reformed. It should be a defined contribution scheme like most everyone else. That should come in with immediate effect.

But doesn't the private sector mostly have a pension scheme that pays benefits with no actuarial/financial relationship to the amount paid in?

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

But doesn't the private sector mostly have a pension scheme that .....

Most of the 1,800,000 people in the private sector do not have a pension scheme, certainly not one that is comparable to a public sector pension anyway.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

But doesn't the private sector mostly have a pension scheme that pays benefits with no actuarial/financial relationship to the amount paid in?

I presume you mean the old age pension (or whatever it's called now)?

Because if you mean private pensions then as jimmy says, most private sector workers don't have any and the ones that do are mostly defined contribution-almost nobody in the private sector has a defined benefit scheme. Many defined benefit schemes in the private sector are in serious trouble (Waterford Glass for example) but unlike the public sector, cannot simply dip into the tax returns to fix it!

I would simply allow all PS workers access to the old age pension like everyone else. I would also want the government and the individual PS workers to contribute to their own defined contribution scheme, like most multi-nationals.

That's the sort of reform I'd go for, just bring PS workers into line with someone in an average US multinational.

I would however reduce the state pension. It, along with dole are simply too high for the tax returns and the cost of living is falling.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Most of the 1,800,000 people in the private sector do not have a pension scheme, certainly not one that is comparable to a public sector pension anyway.

You could write headlines for the Indo. You make a statement and then mostly contradict yourself.

You do know that not all public sector pension schemes are the same and there are some (e.g. Bord na Mona), on the same terms as average private sector workers?

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

You do know that not all public sector pension schemes are the same and there are some (e.g. Bord na Mona), on the same terms as average private sector workers?

Yes, I know that, but Bord na Mona is very much in the minority when it comes to the p.s. You do know that most private sector people do not have a pension scheme, certainly not one that is comparable to "the typical" public sector pension anyway. ( one that the average public servant is on ) .

gdael

murphaph wrote: »

I must have missed all this public sector pain as well. I guess I'm lazy too

The PS pension should be further reformed. It should be a defined contribution scheme like most everyone else. That should come in with immediate effect.

Would you agree gdael?

I would agree.
I would go further though.
The public sector pension should be abolished altogether.
Let them look after their own pensions from now on. They can either start a private pension or not - their choice.
Get rid of the civil service pension from this point on altogether.

But in the interests of fairness -
Let them all pay full PRSI and get any benefits of doing so too.

Cancel any pension related deductions from their salary for them from now on too. (Pension contribution: 5.5% and Pension Levy: 7.5%). Or let them direct this into a private pension.

Let them keep any pension benefits due at the time of the abolition of the pension as per their current working conditions. And allow them to get the benefit of the state pension for whatever portion of their career they are not in the civil service pension (like everyone else).
So a civil servant who has worked for 20 years of their 40 year career gets half the benefits they would have got. If they only worked 1 year they get 1/40th of the benefits. ANyone entering the public sector from now on gets nothing.

Then they can mix up the 2 (state pension and portion of pension so far earned), for their pension when they retire. And add in whatever their private pension makes them (if they start one).

So then they would be exactly the same as the private sector (with no employer contribution) for the purposes of their pensions.

jimmmy

gdael wrote: »

I would agree.
I would go further though.
The public sector pension should be abolished altogether.
Let them look after their own pensions from now on. They can either start a private pension or not - their choice.
Get rid of the civil service pension from this point on altogether.

But in the interests of fairness -
Let them all pay full PRSI and get any benefits of doing so too.

Cancel any pension related deductions from their salary for them from now on too. (Pension contribution: 5.5% and Pension Levy: 7.5%). Or let them direct this into a private pension.

Let them keep any pension benefits due at the time of the abolition of the pension as per their current working conditions. And allow them to get the benefit of the state pension for whatever portion of their career they are not in the civil service pension (like everyone else).
So a civil servant who has worked for 20 years of their 40 year career gets half the benefits they would have got. If they only worked 1 year they get 1/40th of the benefits. ANyone entering the public sector from now on gets nothing.

Then they can mix up the 2 (state pension and portion of pension so far earned), for their pension when they retire. And add in whatever their private pension makes them (if they start one).

So then they would be exactly the same as the private sector (with no employer contribution) for the purposes of their pensions.

excellent post. It would / will save the country tens of billions over the years if + when implemented I am sure. The current p.s. pension situation is unsustainable.

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

Im not trying to insult you. Its just the way you are. I guess you're just one of those people not motivated to seek out fairness, but just to pull other down to your level, instead of helping yourself up. You are not alone in that attitude in this country.

There are numerous examples, even just in this thread, of how the public sector have been screwed. Including several that you have replied to. So you are fully aware of them and me mentioning them for you again is just a waste of time, because you will conveniently ignore them again.

You are saying there are numerous examples of public sector pain, i am asking you to give me these numerous examples, please answer this question rather than calling me lazy, unmotivated or any other insult, its a simple question on something that you state as fact so please prove it to me

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

I would agree.
I would go further though.
The public sector pension should be abolished altogether............ for the purposes of their pensions.

Well praise the lord, a positive thought out contribution from you. It's obviously what needs to be done but in the real world it would never ever happen but i agree its something that needs to be done

jimmmy

It may happen soon than we all think. Fritz and Heinz in Germany are not going to keep lending the government here 20 to 25 billion every year when our government squanders much of it on their own ( + their employees ) pay + pensions + perks. No foreign banker is going to keep throwing that sort of money to shore up Irish public expenditure. Our govt gave a commitment to the EC that it will cut expenditure by 4 billion in the next budget. Would you think the EC would be impressed, for example by our head of the Irish Central bank being the highest paid known Central banker in the world ?

gdael

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well praise the lord, a positive thought out contribution from you. It's obviously what needs to be done but in the real world it would never ever happen but i agree its something that needs to be done

How old are you?

Its about fairness. Not whinging because because your own career is in the toilet, which is really all you seem to do.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Yes, I know that, but Bord na Mona is very much in the minority when it comes to the p.s. You do know that most private sector people do not have a pension scheme, certainly not one that is comparable to "the typical" public sector pension anyway. ( one that the average public servant is on ) .

I think you're confusing public sector pensions and civil service pensions.

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

I think you're confusing public sector pensions and civil service pensions.

Not at all. The civil service in this country is much smaller than the public service, of which it is part. Now, you do know that most private sector people do not have a pension scheme, certainly not one that is comparable to "the typical" public sector pension anyway. ( one that the average public servant is on )

jimmmy

gdael wrote: »

Its about fairness.

It certainly is all about fairness and few people in this country seem to think we get very good value out of our Health system for example, especially considering our public servants are the highest paid in the known world + the taxes we pay etc