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Public sector pay: the wrong debate

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    #722
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    especially considering our public servants are the highest paid in the known world + the taxes we pay etc
    Didn't you open a separate thread asking that as a question? Why bother, if you already 'know'?


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    #723
    gdael
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭gdael


    jimmmy wrote: »
    It certainly is all about fairness and few people in this country seem to think we get very good value out of our Health system for example, especially considering our public servants are the highest paid in the known world + the taxes we pay etc

    Imagining that the private sector are somehow all on the breadline isnt being fair either.


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    #724
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    as has been mentioned in a post here, now that the lisbon treaty is through (thank god) the biggest concern is obviously the economy, I think its fair to say that currently Fianna Fail could somehow inconcevibly be a better proposition than the rest. Labour arent even in government, and wont support cuts in PS pay! if they are in opposition and arent going for it, there is no way they will do it in government! I really dont understand why Fianna Gael dont become the private sector party as has been mentioned! to me they are the only credible alternative to Fianna Fail!


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    #725
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    gdael wrote: »
    How old are you?

    Its about fairness. Not whinging because because your own career is in the toilet, which is really all you seem to do.

    If you can find 1 post by me, just 1 post, whinging about my career then please please show it to us all, just to make it interesting i will give EUR 100 if you can to any charity of your choice

    Fact is you can't because there aren't any becasue fact is i'm delighted with how my career is progressing, it just I'm not as self congratulatory as you seem to be about it

    Also you still haven't supplied me with any details of all the PAIN the public sector is suffering?? Apart from pension levy please list them


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    #726
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    Also you still haven't supplied me with any details of all the PAIN the public sector is suffering?? Apart from pension levy please list them
    Let me help then:

    Pension levy (in effect a special tax on public-sector workers), tax levies (like other workers), reduction in wages due to reduced working hours, increased stress due to non-replacement of colleagues & managers, no promotional prospects, long commutes due to the 'decentralsiation' project, creeping privitisation, uncertainty as to future employment, salary or pension rights, constant/daily vilification campaign in the populist media.

    Now these may seem like minor aches compared to what has been suffered by a minority of private sector workers, while others in the private sector continue to enjoy boom-time lifestyles at our expense, but that's a matter of opinion.


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    #727
    gdael
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭gdael


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    If you can find 1 post by me, just 1 post, whinging about my career then please please show it to us all, just to make it interesting i will give EUR 100 if you can to any charity of your choice

    Fact is you can't because there aren't any becasue fact is i'm delighted with how my career is progressing, it just I'm not as self congratulatory as you seem to be about it

    Also you still haven't supplied me with any details of all the PAIN the public sector is suffering?? Apart from pension levy please list them

    Jesus, get over yourself. Go and read the rest of this thread. There is no point trying to get me to trawl through it and pull out posts for you. Why, because i would put in the effort and you would just ognore them. Do some work yourself or stop messing. You've posted the same post about 5 times now. Grow up.

    Nice offer by the way, but I dont trust you about the €100 at all.
    How about this. You give the €100 to the mod here. You can do it through paypal. And i'll get a post for you and nominate my charity to the mod.

    If you agree to this and the mod tells me he is holding the money i'll post your posts. If i dont post it then he can give your money back.

    So yes or no. You made the offer. Back it up.
    No more bull from you, just post Yes or No. Post anything else besides a one word answer and i wont be replying to you except with a :rolleyes:.
    The mod can tell me if you have put up the money.


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    #728
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    as has been mentioned in a post here, now that the lisbon treaty is through (thank god) the biggest concern is obviously the economy, I think its fair to say that currently Fianna Fail could somehow inconcevibly be a better proposition than the rest. Labour arent even in government, and wont support cuts in PS pay! if they are in opposition and arent going for it, there is no way they will do it in government! I really dont understand why Fianna Gael dont become the private sector party as has been mentioned! to me they are the only credible alternative to Fianna Fail!

    marc coleman brings this up in his collumn in the sindo today , fine gael are far too wishy washy on the subject of public sector pay , this is of course because enda kenny is not a right winger but a centrist populists , centrists populism or bertie,sm has us where we are now , we are now in a new era where descisiveness is needed , horse trading or cutting deals with vested interests , keeping everyone happy , we cant afford it

    if fine gael get rid of kenny who maks the swing voter nervous , elect a new leader and go all our of the sleeping giant of middle ireland tax paying private sector voters , they willl romp home at the next election and not need labour to form the next goverment , a one party goverment without fianna fail or labour is exactly what this country needs , finana fail cant make the hard descisions because they are too inherently populist and as for labour , well no party can turn thier back on their base and make any ground , the public sector are the labour partys base


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    #729
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    gdael wrote: »
    Its about fairness.

    What is 'fairness'?


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    #730
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    gdael wrote: »
    Nice offer by the way, but I dont trust you about the €100 at all.
    How about this. You give the €100 to the mod here. You can do it through paypal. And i'll get a post for you and nominate my charity to the mod.

    If you agree to this and the mod tells me he is holding the money i'll post your posts. If i dont post it then he can give your money back.

    So yes or no. You made the offer. Back it up.
    No more bull from you, just post Yes or No. Post anything else besides a one word answer and i wont be replying to you except with a :rolleyes:.
    The mod can tell me if you have put up the money.

    your on


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    #731
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    gdael wrote: »
    I would consider myself in a good job and i would be of the opinion that the public sector have taken more than their fair share of the pain.
    gdael wrote: »
    Jesus, get over yourself. Go and read the rest of this thread. There is no point trying to get me to trawl through it and pull out posts for you. Why, because i would put in the effort and you would just ognore them. Do some work yourself or stop messing. You've posted the same post about 5 times now. Grow up.

    Look you made a statement that the public sector had taken more than its fair share of pain, i asked you to back it up several times, just by listing what all this pain was, you didn't. I didn't ask you to quote anyone, do any research for numbers, nothing, just a simple list of all the pain the public sector was suffereing to make them have more than their fair share, you repeatadly didn't and resorted, to petty comments. Why make a statement if you can't back it up??


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    #732
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Let me help then:

    Pension levy (in effect a special tax on public-sector workers), tax levies (like other workers), reduction in wages due to reduced working hours, increased stress due to non-replacement of colleagues & managers, no promotional prospects, long commutes due to the 'decentralsiation' project, creeping privitisation, uncertainty as to future employment, salary or pension rights, constant/daily vilification campaign in the populist media.

    Now these may seem like minor aches compared to what has been suffered by a minority of private sector workers, while others in the private sector continue to enjoy boom-time lifestyles at our expense, but that's a matter of opinion.
    So just the pension levy then? Everyone else faces the rest of these things anyway. Sorry you had to join the real world! :rolleyes:


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    #733
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Pension levy (in effect a special tax on public-sector workers)
    I agree. Get rid of the pension scheme for the public sector and make it the same as the private sector. That has the knock on affect of the pension levy being removed. Would this make you happy?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    tax levies (like other workers)
    Like other workers yes indeed.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    reduction in wages due to reduced working hours
    You mean reduced working hours. What you really mean is less over time. Overtime is not your core salary so it is irrelevant is overtime is reduced or removed.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    increased stress due to non-replacement of colleagues & managers
    No different than the private sector. I suppose the difference is you can go on stress leave whereas I cannot.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    no promotional prospects
    Like every other job where people are being asked to do more without promotion.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    long commutes due to the 'decentralsiation' project
    The decentralisation program was never really implemented. Eitherway it is no different than the thousands that now have to commute in the private sector because they lost their jobs.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    creeping privitisation
    Well we'd have to do less in work and would have all the benefits if we had creeping nationalisation. We are already privatised so whats wrong with that?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    uncertainty as to future employment salary or pension rights,
    No different to the private sector.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    constant/daily vilification campaign in the populist media.
    Change needs to happen and the public sector are fighting it. Some asking for pay increases - they get what they deserve!

    You have nothing in there that the private sector workers already deal with but yet you have all the extra benefits that goes with working in the public sector on top of on average 25% more pay!!! The public sector is a long way away from the pain of the private sector.


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    #734
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Let me help then:

    Pension levy (in effect a special tax on public-sector workers), tax levies (like other workers), reduction in wages due to reduced working hours, increased stress due to non-replacement of colleagues & managers, no promotional prospects, long commutes due to the 'decentralsiation' project, creeping privitisation, uncertainty as to future employment, salary or pension rights, constant/daily vilification campaign in the populist media.

    Now these may seem like minor aches compared to what has been suffered by a minority of private sector workers, while others in the private sector continue to enjoy boom-time lifestyles at our expense, but that's a matter of opinion.

    How can you cite 'creeping privatisation' as a negative at the same time as extolling the supposed fabulous pay of the private sector? Surely, 'creeping privatisation' would therefore be a positive.

    In any case, most of your examples above are all being suffereed by the private sector. Sure, some have escaped a pay cut but most have either suffered a pay cut or have been at risk of redundancy (and remain there).

    But all of this is somewhat irrelevent. It is not a question of whether the private sector takes more pain than the public or vice versa.

    The country is spending way way too much. It needs to save a small fortune. And to do so, it must cut wherever it can cut both to reduce this Bill and to restore competitiveness (one of the reasons for our actual mid-90s-early 00s growth). One of those areas is the wages it pays its employees or the numbers of those employees. The private sector has and is making the same choices. If some (few) private sector employers have yet to do either, they have clearly managed their businesses extremely well to have escaped such measures. But the State has not managed its business that welll and has to cut.

    If there are other practical options, wonderful, but there are not. And all of the sniping between public and private will do nothing to rectify the problem.


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    #735
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    irish_bob wrote: »
    you have no voice to represent you but i suspect you know that already

    we need a thatcher in this country and we need one fast

    I'm presuming you mean a roof thatcher and not Margaret ???


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    #736
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Whatever you think of the p.m of the UK for 3 terms, its interesting to remember how she and the people of Britain took on the unions and won. Wages in the UK then were not as high as the average p.s. wage is in Ireland now ; which is the highest in the known world. ( unless you know of a country where the average p.s.. wage is higher....I'd love to know ) ?


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    #737
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    W1ct0ry wrote: »
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055696701

    waah waah "This guy said a boo boo ban him please"

    <content removed by moderator>

    Nice one thanks, at least someone listens and tells tales....


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    #738
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Whatever you think of the p.m of the UK for 3 terms, its interesting to remember how she and the people of Britain took on the unions and won. Wages in the UK then were not as high as the average p.s. wage is in Ireland now ; which is the highest in the known world. ( unless you know of a country where the average p.s.. wage is higher....I'd love to know ) ?

    I'll give you that she was a staunch lady and took no messing, Look at that period in UK politics, caused major problems in the population.

    I like her decisivness, we need that but she was also totally unapproachable, Look to the North, 10 souls she cost Ireland, elected members included in that and the peace process only took off after she was gone.

    As far as wages go, i agree, we are on decent wages considering the cost of living. Insurance, Road tax, groceries, fuel etc.

    If they can factor in the lowering of the cost of living then I'll be happy to live on a fraction of what i'm now on. no problem.

    Just one more thing, (as Columbo says) "Mortgage Repayments" they can't come down so there's a big reason people need the decent wages...Not complaining this time just stating an opinion.


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    #739
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd



    I like her decisivness, we need that but she was also totally unapproachable, Look to the North, 10 souls she cost Ireland, elected members included in that and the peace process only took off after she was gone.

    Margaret Thatchers biggest problem was that her class war - and it was class war - was directed not only against the workers but the industries they worked in. She could have tried to save the mines by modernising them - there is pleny of coal left - or saved industry by modernising that too - the German model.

    The UK, once the workhouse of the world, now depends on Finance to stay afloat. But that can change very quickly, in fact financial capitals tend to follow manufacturing capitals with a bit of a lag.


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    #740
    upsy daisy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭upsy daisy


    I don't think you quite realise the additional expensive benefits that public sector entails. I have never ever received pay while on maternity leave (apart from my maternity benefit), it is a benefit that a few employers offer but public sector receive it automatically. Also, with the average public sector worker does a 39 hour week (excluding breaks) compared to 35 hours and to top it off the holidays. I have been lucky to work for good employers but the general leave in Ireland is the minimum of 20 days per annum. Wake up, we need to get competitive and re-align things in this country. In my opinion we will probably end up being run by Europe which will be a good thing because they won't take this constant inefficiency in the public sector. Did you know that we have almost the highest spend per capita on Health care? That just shows no matter how much money goes in, it's the people managing it that cause the problems.


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    #741
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Wiley1 wrote: »
    I'm presuming you mean a roof thatcher and not Margaret ???

    you presume incorrectly


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    #742
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Wiley1 wrote: »
    I'll give you that she was a staunch lady and took no messing, Look at that period in UK politics, caused major problems in the population.

    I like her decisivness, we need that but she was also totally unapproachable, Look to the North, 10 souls she cost Ireland, elected members included in that and the peace process only took off after she was gone.

    As far as wages go, i agree, we are on decent wages considering the cost of living. Insurance, Road tax, groceries, fuel etc.

    If they can factor in the lowering of the cost of living then I'll be happy to live on a fraction of what i'm now on. no problem.

    Just one more thing, (as Columbo says) "Mortgage Repayments" they can't come down so there's a big reason people need the decent wages...Not complaining this time just stating an opinion.


    apart from her ogre like attitude to the north , thatcher was the best leader the uk had since churchill , by todays standards , the woman was a titan of our times


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    #743
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    irish_bob wrote: »
    thatcher was the best leader the uk had since churchill , by todays standards , the woman was a titan of our times
    So, who shall we invade to distract attention from problems at home?


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    #744
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    So, who shall we invade to distract attention from problems at home?

    the falklands was and is part of the uk , the argentines were the invaders and they did this to stir up nationalism at home as a way of diverting attention from the horrors of the junta regime in place at the time


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    #745
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Wiley1 wrote: »
    I'll give you that she was a staunch lady and took no messing, Look at that period in UK politics, caused major problems in the population.

    I like her decisivness, we need that but she was also totally unapproachable, Look to the North, 10 souls she cost Ireland, elected members included in that and the peace process only took off after she was gone.

    As far as wages go, i agree, we are on decent wages considering the cost of living. Insurance, Road tax, groceries, fuel etc.

    If they can factor in the lowering of the cost of living then I'll be happy to live on a fraction of what i'm now on. no problem.

    Just one more thing, (as Columbo says) "Mortgage Repayments" they can't come down so there's a big reason people need the decent wages...Not complaining this time just stating an opinion.

    I find it quiet interesting, that over recnet history, when economies go bad... the people seemed to turn to conservatives to save them.. (and save them they did)... Thatcher, Reagan (maybe even Haughey)... however.. once money things get better, we revert to our social liberalism.. and swing to the left... Labour in the UK.. Dems in US..

    Maybe what we need is a party that is Rational... both socially left leaning, but Fiscally conservative!!
    Why can't we have a Pro-Choice and Pro-Business party?


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    #746
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    optocynic wrote: »
    Maybe what we need is a party that is Rational... both socially left leaning, but Fiscally conservative!!
    Why can't we have a Pro-Choice and Pro-Business party?

    they were called the Progressive Democrats. We gave them both barrells at the last election, thank god


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    #747
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    optocynic wrote: »
    I find it quiet interesting, that over recnet history, when economies go bad... the people seemed to turn to conservatives to save them.. (and save them they did)... Thatcher, Reagan (maybe even Haughey)... however.. once money things get better, we revert to our social liberalism.. and swing to the left... Labour in the UK.. Dems in US..

    Maybe what we need is a party that is Rational... both socially left leaning, but Fiscally conservative!!
    Why can't we have a Pro-Choice and Pro-Business party?

    That's really interesting, It makes sense, when things are tight you save and when things improve you let go, it's basic seasonal animal behaviour, starve in the winter and go carefree for the summer, in you get my analogy. We seem to have hit the winter.


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    #748
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Wiley1 wrote: »
    That's really interesting, It makes sense, when things are tight you save and when things improve you let go, it's basic seasonal animal behaviour, starve in the winter and go carefree for the summer, in you get my analogy. We seem to have hit the winter.

    Your analogy seems spot on...

    Of course the theory does not hold true completely... put a half-wit conservative in charge.. and things get worse..


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    #749
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Bambi wrote: »
    they were called the Progressive Democrats. We gave them both barrells at the last election, thank god

    The PD's were not rational... they were populist agenda spouting morons... power hungry... and in some cases dangerous.. (Mcdowell anyone?)...

    For me, I would respect and follow a politicial who was plain spoken... and didn't suffer fools gladly... A person who is, for the most part.. the smartest person in the room.. not afraid to tell people when they are being stupid/childish/selfish..


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    #750
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    optocynic wrote: »
    The PD's were not rational... they were populist agenda spouting morons... power hungry... and in some cases dangerous.. (Mcdowell anyone?)...

    For me, I would respect and follow a politicial who was plain spoken... and didn't suffer fools gladly... A person who is, for the most part.. the smartest person in the room.. not afraid to tell people when they are being stupid/childish/selfish..

    If only we could find a few of them eh?

    There in lies an argument there for having polititians only paid a nominal salary, that way the people who would enter politics would be doing it for the right reasons.


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    #751
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    optocynic wrote: »
    Your analogy seems spot on...

    Of course the theory does not hold true completely... put a half-wit conservative in charge.. and things get worse..

    Exactly.


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