Public sector pay: the wrong debate

gdael

Tipp Man wrote: »

your on

Im still waiting to hear from the mod that you have deposited the money via paypal with them ????????

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

Im still waiting to hear from the mod that you have deposited the money via paypal with them ????????

I left a message with a mod but am still waiting for them to get back to me, have messaged again

Gives you more time to dig, not that there is anything to find

T runner

gamblor1975 wrote: »

We need to start getting value for money from our public sector which we are not at the moment. This report will give the govt. the ammo it needs to drop the wages but what we really need is reform so that the Public S behaves more like the private sector with regard to work practices and
I really hope this govt. dosn't bottle it with the PS unions!

The report does not compare like with like. The job I do as a public servant would actually pay a lot more if I worked in the private sector.

giving managers the tools they need to sort the wheat from the chaff.

The managers are the chaff by and large. Do you know that most managers in the public sectors haven't even done a management course?

You can give them all the tools in the world and you still wont get value.
The problem isnt that the public sector workers dont work hard enough. The problem is that the public sector isnt managed properly. There are some excellent managers but by and large this is not the case. I am not attacking the management class in general, I am just observing that things have reached this point now.

I work in an IOT. Do you know that the buildings budget in the IOTs hasnt been cut yet?


This means the IOTs still have big building budgets which is being duly squandered. (reports recently of a 157,000 boardroom refurbishment in one IOT).

Meanwhile real front line staffs' contracts , lab attendants, technicians etc are not being renewed. This is leading to lab cancellations, poor services etc.
Is this value for money for students?

These peoples wages are peanuts but theyre jobs are essential.

Management say they cant employ emergency cover or take from the buildings fund: the budget comes directly from the Dept of Finance. This is actually true and I think deliberate.

Jobs are to be cut no matter what the cost to vital services like education and health. Nobody is seperating wheat from chaff in this clearout and unfortunately most of the wheat is nearest the trapdoor.

miju

T runner wrote: »

Do you know that most managers in the public sectors haven't even done a management course?

you any links or are you just gonna spout the latest unsubstationated ****e about the public sector you can think of? Because any EO , HEO etc I know have been sent on a myriad of courses that relate specifically to their dept.

They are rarey sent on degree / diploma courses unless it's something they do of their own accord and claim back from their dept. It also makes COST SAVING sense not to send all management on full blown courses. Why send them on courses that they will only find 2-3 modules of a degree / diploma course etc useful to their actual job?

Better is the way it's done by and large now and send them on moduler courses relating specifically to the skillsets they'll require to perform their function as best as poss.

Damned if you do , damned if you dont :rolleyes:

murphaph

Another 830 odd jobs going in the private sector (announced today, Aer Lingus and 2 companies in Shannon) and Aer Lingus demanding pay cuts and big changes to legacy work practices for the remaining staff.

But the private sector is doing fine according to gdael :rolleyes:

Even former state companies are slashing costs yet the PS remain resolutely against any changes to pay and/or conditions. Snap out of it!

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

Another 830 odd jobs going in the private sector (announced today, Aer Lingus and 2 companies in Shannon) and Aer Lingus demanding pay cuts and big changes to legacy work practices for the remaining staff.

But the private sector is doing fine according to gdael :rolleyes:

Even former state companies are slashing costs yet the PS remain resolutely against any changes to pay and/or conditions. Snap out of it!

Your lying Murph, gdael says that nobody in the public sector is losing jobs or taking pay cuts, its just not happening

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

Im still waiting to hear from the mod that you have deposited the money via paypal with them ????????

Got a message from the mod saying they won't facilitate it, if you don't believe me then check my messages

Now my offer still stands, or are you just looking for a way to back out of it which seems to be a common trend

av8rirl

Wiley1 wrote: »

There in lies an argument there for having polititians only paid a nominal salary, that way the people who would enter politics would be doing it for the right reasons.

You think the nominal salary would attract the smartest person in the room?? Not saying that the smartest person in the room always wants a challenge that is financially rewarding... but if you pay a nominal wage you will attract the commies who will tell you that a doctor should be paid the same as a labourer!

And on the point about public sector v private sector... a friend of mine had a revenue audit coming up a while back and was speaking with another friend who works in revenue... the friend in revenue told him not to worry about anything because if the inspector was any good, they'd be working in the private sector! So it would appear on this comment and from other people that I know in the public sector that there isn't much motivation to get a job well done, on time and value for money... again... all down to bad management and no incentive (be it financial or otherwise) to do a decent job!

T runner

miju wrote: »

you any links or are you just gonna spout the latest unsubstationated ****e about the public sector you can think of? Because any EO , HEO etc I know have been sent on a myriad of courses that relate specifically to their dept.

They are rarey sent on degree / diploma courses unless it's something they do of their own accord and claim back from their dept. It also makes COST SAVING sense not to send all management on full blown courses. Why send them on courses that they will only find 2-3 modules of a degree / diploma course etc useful to their actual job?

Better is the way it's done by and large now and send them on moduler courses relating specifically to the skillsets they'll require to perform their function as best as poss.

Damned if you do , damned if you dont :rolleyes:

Heres a link for the WIT 157,000 boardroom.

If you read further you will see that all of WITs cutbacks to make up its 5m deficit will come from pay related sources. (Not renewing contracts of temporary employees etc). Unfortunately previous management decisions to appoint temporary staff in Key permanent positions for COST SAVING reasons have now come back to haunt them. If only they could use some of that big juicy buildings fund. But they cant. I do believe that they would use the money more wisely than in the past if they were allowed access to it, but the building budget comes seperately from the relevent government department.



Lets pick a real example relating to the public service management:

Many institutions in the public service have had to undergo PDPs (Personal Developement Plans) and TDPs (Team Development Plans). This was to allow staff and teams have goals (work and training) which could be worked at and achieved. The "training" for these development plans involved watching a video. In one sequence an example was shown of a "bad" management style towards these plans and a "good" management style. When someone reasonably pointed out how was a manager with the "bad" style going to transform him/herself to the "good" style. i.e would there be training for this important initiative. Eh... No.

Result? Box ticking exercise. And that was supposed to be a major "tool" in improving productivity in the public sector in the last 5 years.

Wiley1

miju wrote: »

you any links or are you just gonna spout the latest unsubstationated ****e about the public sector you can think of? Because any EO , HEO etc I know have been sent on a myriad of courses that relate specifically to their dept.

They are rarey sent on degree / diploma courses unless it's something they do of their own accord and claim back from their dept. It also makes COST SAVING sense not to send all management on full blown courses. Why send them on courses that they will only find 2-3 modules of a degree / diploma course etc useful to their actual job?

Better is the way it's done by and large now and send them on moduler courses relating specifically to the skillsets they'll require to perform their function as best as poss.

Damned if you do , damned if you dont :rolleyes:

Yoda has returned...

Wiley1

av8rirl wrote: »

You think the nominal salary would attract the smartest person in the room?? Not saying that the smartest person in the room always wants a challenge that is financially rewarding... but if you pay a nominal wage you will attract the commies who will tell you that a doctor should be paid the same as a labourer!

And on the point about public sector v private sector... a friend of mine had a revenue audit coming up a while back and was speaking with another friend who works in revenue... the friend in revenue told him not to worry about anything because if the inspector was any good, they'd be working in the private sector! So it would appear on this comment and from other people that I know in the public sector that there isn't much motivation to get a job well done, on time and value for money... again... all down to bad management and no incentive (be it financial or otherwise) to do a decent job!

It's always a friend of a friend told me this and told me that, With all this public sector bashing nothing I say on this topic will change anything so I will no longer argue any points in favour of public sector, I'll just take my overpaid self and sit here and do nothing like the rest of my collegues all over the country. I think this post has burned itself out.

December will throw light on the whole situation anyway...Peace out People

av8rirl

Do you not agree that there is wastage in the public sector? This morning I drove past 7 council workers standing around on a corner watching one man do a bit with a shovel. 7 watching one man work... I kid you not!!

So were 8 people required to be paid to watch one man work?

I use this as an example to highlight that there are some (in this case 1) good people in the public sector, while there are also plenty (in this case 7) with nothing to do or no initiative to do it!

A few weeks ago I watched more council workers redoing some footpaths at the top of my estate. It took about 20 of them almost 4 weeks to do what me and 2 others would have done when I worked summers on building sites many years ago. What a complete wastage of money and resources... and then you get told theres no budget to put in a speed ramp in front of the schools or a pedestrian crossing!!

So when I say public sector I don't mean just those sitting at a desk... it is a very broad sector.

So if you are one of the good ones... then please don't take it personally!

If you are not one of the good ones... then you were probably sitting at your desk twiddling your thumbs anyway... and debating how much the public servants are worth on an internet forum!

jimmmy

av8rirl wrote: »

So were 8 people required to be paid to watch one man work?

A few others are probably paid as well, but are on a sickie or on a stress day or on holidays ( well its a bit early for the Xmas shopping day yet;) ).

miju

T runner wrote: »

Heres a link for the WIT 157,000 boardroom.

If you read further you will see that all of WITs cutbacks to make up its 5m deficit will come from pay related sources. (Not renewing contracts of temporary employees etc). Unfortunately previous management decisions to appoint temporary staff in Key permanent positions for COST SAVING reasons have now come back to haunt them. If only they could use some of that big juicy buildings fund. But they cant. I do believe that they would use the money more wisely than in the past if they were allowed access to it, but the building budget comes seperately from the relevent government department.

and what exactly has that to do (or even remotely back up) with your claim that most manager in the public service haven''t even done a management course ?

miju

jimmmy wrote: »

A few others are probably paid as well, but are on a sickie or on a stress day or on holidays ( well its a bit early for the Xmas shopping day yet;) ).

we need and love all those days & holidays and sure anyways don't we deserve them :p:p:p:p:p

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

A few others are probably paid as well, but are on a sickie or on a stress day or on holidays ( well its a bit early for the Xmas shopping day yet;) ).

'probably' - Are you just guessing?

What's the 'Xmas shopping day' you refer to?

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

'probably' - Are you just guessing?

Just going by the laws of probability, given the numbers of staff employed / layers of management etc:D. Do you condone the others persons observations eg "7 council workers standing around on a corner watching one man do a bit with a shovel."?

NewDubliner wrote: »

What's the 'Xmas shopping day' you refer to?

'tis a bit early yet for that;). Not everyone gets it anyway.

ronbyrne2005

Was watching dispatches on channel 4 last night. They were dealing with the pensions timebomb in uk and were talking about public sector pensions being under threat for new entrants to public sector as it was so unsustainable. What really caught my eye was the amount of pensions PS workers there received.
My father , as i recently pointed out, retired(at age 56) as a fireman/paramedic this year and get 35k a year pension, he was not promoted throughout his career as didnt want any managerial responsibility. If he dies my mother gets half this amount for the rest of her life.

Anyway the amounts the British PS worlers were getting was so much lower than their Irish equivalent would get. a british MP with 20years sitting in Westminister "only " gets aorund 30k sterling a year at retirement or roughly the same as my father. They said high level civil servants with lots of qualifications and responsibilty would get a pension of around 40k a year or a bit more than my father.
Even though my father/mother would suffer under a reformed system i feel the Irish PS pay and pensions are FAR FAR FAR too high GIVEN the underlying reality of our economy, we were never as rich as the hype led us to beleive, it was fueled by an explosion in private sector debt. The large increase in PS pay over past 15 years was unsustainable and unjustified by non-bubble economic activity. My father/mother didnt realise till i told them that the pension they got is worth well over a million euro if bough in private sector but they paid in only a fraction of the true cost. I dont think many PS on middle to high incomes 35K+ realise how valuable their pensions are.

murphaph

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Was watching dispatches on channel 4 last night. They were dealing with the pensions timebomb in uk and were talking about public sector pensions being under threat for new entrants to public sector as it was so unsustainable. What really caught my eye was the amount of pensions PS workers there received.
My father , as i recently pointed out, retired(at age 56) as a fireman/paramedic this year and get 35k a year pension, he was not promoted throughout his career as didnt want any managerial responsibility. If he dies my mother gets half this amount for the rest of her life.

Anyway the amounts the British PS worlers were getting was so much lower than their Irish equivalent would get. a british MP with 20years sitting in Westminister "only " gets aorund 30k sterling a year at retirement or roughly the same as my father. They said high level civil servants with lots of qualifications and responsibilty would get a pension of around 40k a year or a bit more than my father.
Even though my father/mother would suffer under a reformed system i feel the Irish PS pay and pensions are FAR FAR FAR too high GIVEN the underlying reality of our economy, we were never as rich as the hype led us to beleive, it was fueled by an explosion in private sector debt. The large increase in PS pay over past 15 years was unsustainable and unjustified by non-bubble economic activity. My father/mother didnt realise till i told them that the pension they got is worth well over a million euro if bough in private sector but they paid in only a fraction of the true cost. I dont think many PS on middle to high incomes 35K+ realise how valuable their pensions are.

Ron, unfortunately people like you (ie, can see something while personally beneficial is poor for the country as a whole) are rare as hen's teeth. You are spot on though-PS pay and pensions are based on a false wealth that never really existed. Ireland was never as rich as the UK/Germany etc. even per capita and can't afford these extravagances now. Something has to give and give in a big way. PS pensions should be locked into a defined contribution scheme forthwith (as Aer Lingus now wants to do with ALL it's remaining defined benefit beneficiaries). I think PS workers should pay class A PRSI and have access to the full state pension (which should also be reduced for all along with the dole-all these payments are much more than the state can afford and yes, my mother will suffer under it too but realises that the money is simply not there).

irish_bob

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Was watching dispatches on channel 4 last night. They were dealing with the pensions timebomb in uk and were talking about public sector pensions being under threat for new entrants to public sector as it was so unsustainable. What really caught my eye was the amount of pensions PS workers there received.
My father , as i recently pointed out, retired(at age 56) as a fireman/paramedic this year and get 35k a year pension, he was not promoted throughout his career as didnt want any managerial responsibility. If he dies my mother gets half this amount for the rest of her life.

Anyway the amounts the British PS worlers were getting was so much lower than their Irish equivalent would get. a british MP with 20years sitting in Westminister "only " gets aorund 30k sterling a year at retirement or roughly the same as my father. They said high level civil servants with lots of qualifications and responsibilty would get a pension of around 40k a year or a bit more than my father.
Even though my father/mother would suffer under a reformed system i feel the Irish PS pay and pensions are FAR FAR FAR too high GIVEN the underlying reality of our economy, we were never as rich as the hype led us to beleive, it was fueled by an explosion in private sector debt. The large increase in PS pay over past 15 years was unsustainable and unjustified by non-bubble economic activity. My father/mother didnt realise till i told them that the pension they got is worth well over a million euro if bough in private sector but they paid in only a fraction of the true cost. I dont think many PS on middle to high incomes 35K+ realise how valuable their pensions are.

oh plenty of them realise it but its a combination of thier victimized mentality and the fact that most irish people will say anything to defend against a pay cut

av8rirl

irish_bob wrote: »

oh plenty of them realise it but its a combination of thier victimized mentality and the fact that most irish people will say anything to defend against a pay cut

I'm going to pull you up on that there... most Irish people will not say anything to defend against a pay cut... the people living in reality (ie private sector) have gladly been taking pay cuts or a shortened week in order to hold onto their jobs...

So to correct you... you should have said... most irish people in the public sector will say anything to defend against a pay cut

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

Ron, unfortunately people like you (ie, can see something while personally beneficial is poor for the country as a whole) are rare as hen's teeth. You are spot on though-PS pay and pensions are based on a false wealth that never really existed. Ireland was never as rich as the UK/Germany etc. even per capita and can't afford these extravagances now. Something has to give and give in a big way. PS pensions should be locked into a defined contribution scheme forthwith (as Aer Lingus now wants to do with ALL it's remaining defined benefit beneficiaries). I think PS workers should pay class A PRSI and have access to the full state pension (which should also be reduced for all along with the dole-all these payments are much more than the state can afford and yes, my mother will suffer under it too but realises that the money is simply not there).

Top post, The Celtic tiger finished for Ireland around 2000/01, everything since then has been spending induced madness with no actual output. the problem now is that Bertie since 2001 has handed out billions in welfare and wages and what on earth is going to take it back from people (its a hell of a lot easier giving it to them than taking it off them. I'd go as far as to say that Ireland would be a much stronger country today if the "Boom" from 02-08 never happened)

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Just going by the laws of probability, given the numbers of staff employed / layers of management etc:D. Do you condone the others persons observations eg "7 council workers standing around on a corner watching one man do a bit with a shovel."?

So you're guessing. And how do we know they were council workers?

jimmmy wrote: »

'tis a bit early yet for that;). Not everyone gets it anyway.

Is it a whole day? How many people exactly jimmmy. Facts jimmmy, facts...?

gdael

Tipp Man wrote: »

I left a message with a mod but am still waiting for them to get back to me, have messaged again

Gives you more time to dig, not that there is anything to find

Still waiting.....
I dont believe for one second you have deposited a penny.

gdael

Tipp Man wrote: »

Got a message from the mod saying they won't facilitate it, if you don't believe me then check my messages

Now my offer still stands, or are you just looking for a way to back out of it which seems to be a common trend

Thats what i thought. All huff and no puff from you. You are the one backing out. But i knew that would happen all along. Send me the receipt of a donation to a charity then? If i dont post i'll send you a cheque and it will be my donation. Put your money where your mouth is.

gdael

murphaph wrote: »

Another 830 odd jobs going in the private sector (announced today, Aer Lingus and 2 companies in Shannon) and Aer Lingus demanding pay cuts and big changes to legacy work practices for the remaining staff.

But the private sector is doing fine according to gdael :rolleyes:

Even former state companies are slashing costs yet the PS remain resolutely against any changes to pay and/or conditions. Snap out of it!

As i said. Mostly unskilled jobs. The skilled people will be working again within a few weeks. Thats the life of an unskilled worked.

murphaph

gdael wrote: »

As i said. Mostly unskilled jobs. The skilled people will be working again within a few weeks. Thats the life of an unskilled worked.

Will the Aer Lingus pilots be working again in a few weeks or will they have to emigrate to secure employment? (or is flying airliners unskilled too?)

It's irrelevant anyway-skilled or unskilled they get the same dole and are the same (unintentional) burden on the state once they are unemployed.

murphaph

gdael wrote: »

Thats what i thought. All huff and no puff from you. You are the one backing out. But i knew that would happen all along. Send me the receipt of a donation to a charity then? If i dont post i'll send you a cheque and it will be my donation. Put your money where your mouth is.

This is all getting a bit childish.

The mod (understandably) has refused to have anything to do with this nonsense!

axer

murphaph wrote: »

Will the Aer Lingus pilots be working again in a few weeks or will they have to emigrate to secure employment? (or is flying airliners unskilled too?)

You'll see them flying blue, yellow and white Boeing 737-800's next week looking pretty miserable.

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

Thats what i thought. All huff and no puff from you. You are the one backing out. But i knew that would happen all along. Send me the receipt of a donation to a charity then? If i dont post i'll send you a cheque and it will be my donation. Put your money where your mouth is.

you are a complete prat you really are and i'm getting sick of your stupid petty comments. You made an allagation about my career which i challenged you to prove i said, you can't so now your trying to worm your way out of it by every means possible

Just admit that you can't prove it and we can all move on, now if you can prove then do it and i will gladly pay the charity of your choice, its that bloody simple.

So prove it and i'll pay or admit you can't, its that bloody simle, no more of your ducking and diving