Public sector pay: the wrong debate

Shea O'Meara

drkpower wrote: »

Eh...?
That is called the market and its what business people up and down the country have to deal with every day.
Do you suggest that people who have a business as a bricklayer should be protected from the guy down the road doing the work for less?

No, I support the idea that the employer cannot expect to pay a Bricklayer 2 euro an hour or whatever he fancies.

drkpower

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

No, I support the idea that the employer cannot expect to pay a Bricklayer 2 euro an hour or whatever he fancies.

Have you ever heard of the minimum wage?

Shea O'Meara

drkpower wrote: »

Have you ever heard of the minimum wage?

Jebus. Minimum wage is an exact example of my point. An agreed line is drawn, you stick to it and any amendments should be negotiated. Read the whole post in context. No point in arsing about on a tangent derived from one line.

drkpower

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Jebus. Minimum wage is an exact example of my point. An agreed line is drawn, you stick to it and any amendments should be negotiated. Read the whole post in context. No point in arsing about on a tangent derived from one line.

In context?
Its a 55 page thread and the post I quoted was your only post in 6-8 weeks!

The agreed line is the minimum wage. The state are entitled to cut wages. Just as any employer is. Particularly if the emplyer (the State) is on the verge of insolvency/already iinsolvent.

Wiley1

An interesting view from a person working in the private sector.
>
>
>
>
> Diarmuid Doyle - "The journey of the public service employee from
> unambitious, unimaginative workhorse to shopaholic destroyer of an
> entire economy has been a sight to behold"
> As RTÉ viewers and readers of Irish newspapers will know by now,
> public sector workers are the most evil, self-centred, lazy,
> opportunistic, stupid, dishonest and vile group of individuals Ireland has ever known.
> Their thievery knows no bounds and goes back generations. DNA tests on
> a nurse from Enfield recently discovered she is a direct descendant of
> a family of cruel kitten killers from the 1890s. Investigations into
> the background of a teacher in Kilkenny revealed that wealthy
> ancestors on his mother's side used to stand outside the homes of
> starving people during the famine, munching potato salad sandwiches
> and feeding the leftovers to the local bird population. What else
> would he do with that kind of history but look for a job in the public service?
> But of all the insults perpetrated by public sector workers over the
> years, perhaps the worst was their mass Christmas shopping outing to
> Newry last Tuesday. Luckily, the media was around to uncover the
> crime. The day of action, RTÉ confidently reported at lunchtime on
> Tuesday, had led to an influx of public sector workers who had
> abandoned their picket lines in search of cheap whiskey (they didn't
> quite put it like that, but it was clear what they were getting at).
> It was an arresting image, no doubt, and one backed up by no evidence
> whatsoever. I tuned into the Six-One News later in the day to see if
> they were able to put any more meat on their story. Sadly, they were
> not, although that didn't stop them pushing an angle that was too attractive to abandon.
> Three witnesses to the madness were interviewed. An Englishman who
> didn't work in the public sector thought the busier-than-usual
> shopping day might have had something to do with the work stoppage,
> although he didn't seem sure. A shopper from Dublin who didn't work in
> the public sector thought a fellow over there might be in the public
> sector, although there was no interview with the fellow over there to
> confirm that suspicion. An elderly woman who didn't work in the public
> sector was sure she was surrounded by public sector workers, their
> horns and pointy tails having completely given the game away.
> RTÉ at least acknowledged that many of the people who arrived in Newry
> on Tuesday might have been the parents of children who had the day off
> (which, of course, was always the most likely explanation for the long
> queue of southern-registered cars meandering towards the town).
> Nevertheless the impression created, and amplified in the following
> day's newspapers, was that thousands of strikers had used their day
> off - taken ostensibly on a point of principle - as an excuse to boost the economy of a foreign nation.
> The unstated analysis: what would you expect from the people who
> ruined the country?
> The journey of the public service employee from unambitious,
> unimaginative workhorse to shopaholic destroyer of an entire economy
> has been a sight to behold. During the boom years, nobody worth their
> salt would be caught dead working in the public service. Our
> thrusting, creative, adaptable workforce demanded the freedom and
> excitement offered by the private sector to express themselves
> (whatever that means), win attention, secure promotion and earn lots
> of money. By contrast, the public sector was looked on as a kind of
> fusty fallback position for Denis and Denise Dullknickers, where they
> could toil away unrecognised by anybody. Judged by the rules and
> morality of the Celtic Badger, these people were unambitious, and therefore slightly weird, losers.
> Now that the boom is over - wrecked mainly, let us not forget, by the
> private sector - the public service has been reimagined as the modern
> equivalent of Nero's Rome. Denis and Denise have been tried and found
> guilty of excesses likely to lead to a visit by the International
> Monetary Fund. A country's future depends on them being chastised for
> reckless behaviour they were never aware of.
> To those people in the private sector who insist on the demonisation
> of public service workers, I would quote the great Roy Keane: Get Over
> It. If the public sector was the fantastic land of opportunity you say
> it is now, you could have joined at any point in your working past.
> But you made a choice to go the private route, as I did, and as did
> many of my colleagues who now so boldly lead the charge against the
> public service. Try as I might, I can't think of a single reason why
> public sector workers should be held responsible for that choice.

Colm R

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/draft-deal-on-public-sector-cuts-drawn-up-436514.html

I don't see how this could fly!!

diverdriver

Union morons, unpaid leave is a pay cut. Just how stupid do they think people are? So you sit at home for a month unpaid wondering how you're going to eat and pay the bills. Then there's the following month trying to make up the difference. Many people, public and private are barely one month's pay away from being in trouble.


It proves what I thought all along. The unions haven't a clue and are leading their members down the rocky road to disappointment.

As for Wiley's post, I don't know who Diarmuid Doyle or why he thinks the public sector has been demonised and blamed for the mess we're in. Because it's time someone who says this to come up with the evidence. No one believes the public sector caused this. If we're going to demonise them at all it's because of their apparent disregard for the reality facing them. We all know what that is, even their unions with their 'nonsensical' unpaid leave idea seem to have realised.

As for the Newry thing, yes well it's all a coincidence, one that won't be repeated on December the 3rd. (Well their Xmas shopping is done now)

mewso

Yes unpaid leave is a pay cut but a far more desirable one than an actual reduction on the pay scales. Unpaid leave can change when things improve or proper restructuring comes in (which I sincerely hope is part of the deal) whereas a cut in pay scale would, like the pension levy, be something they could stick us with ad infinitum.

MaceFace

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Imagine your job, be it Bricklayer, Barber what ever. You earn let's say 450 a week. A guy comes along and says I'll do it for 350 a week. In no time employers would have you working for a pitance.
This is the threat public Service workers are supposed to heed? thankfully we've unions.
Eventually a middle ground will be met. If the Government weren't so ham fisted about things the details could be being drawn up as we post.

By the way, the tax payer also pays private sector wages as the majority of Council road work, housing maintenance etc. is carried out by private companies, so tell them you pay their wages, they'll tell you to go f*** yourself.

As an employer, tell me why I should be forced to pay someone 450 a week when there is someone who can do the job just as good for less money?

Wiley1

mewso wrote: »

Yes unpaid leave is a pay cut but a far more desirable one than an actual reduction on the pay scales. Unpaid leave can change when things improve or proper restructuring comes in (which I sincerely hope is part of the deal) whereas a cut in pay scale would, like the pension levy, be something they could stick us with ad infinitum.

Exactly, once a cut happens that's that, at least with unpaid leave it can be more flexible for change, I had the thought, what if they decide that instead of giving you 14-20 days sitting at home and decreasing service levels would they instead just let you have your normal holidays and not pay you for them, that would be a bit of a hard pill to swallow I think.

Shea O'Meara

drkpower wrote: »

In context?
Its a 55 page thread and the post I quoted was your only post in 6-8 weeks!

In the context of the entire post, not a section of it and not the entire thread.

drkpower wrote: »

The agreed line is the minimum wage. The state are entitled to cut wages. Just as any employer is. Particularly if the emplyer (the State) is on the verge of insolvency/already iinsolvent.

As are the employess entitled to strike. Particularly if they feel they've not been listened to and said employer is changing an agreed upon deal.

hallelujajordan

In my view, this unpaid leave deal is a cop out. .

Simple reality 1 : Pro-rata Public sector employees in Ireland are paid more than their private sector counterparts and more than the vast majority of their EU counterparts. This deal will not change this one iota.

Simple reality 2 : The government can no longer afford to pay salaries at the current level.

Simple reality 3 : If the public sector can operate with everyone taking (for example) 15 days unpaid leave then assuming there are 250 working days in the year, the public sector is overstaffed by 6% . .

We should be looking at a combination of a) benchmarked pay cuts to bring the public sector back in line with their private sector colleagues and b) redundancies to bring the numbers down to the level that is required to efficiently run the public sector ! Nothing else makes any sense . . .

Wiley1

hallelujajordan wrote: »

In my view, this unpaid leave deal is a cop out. .

Simple reality 1 : Pro-rata Public sector employees in Ireland are paid more than their private sector counterparts and more than the vast majority of their EU counterparts. This deal will not change this one iota.

Simple reality 2 : The government can no longer afford to pay salaries at the current level.

Simple reality 3 : If the public sector can operate with everyone taking (for example) 15 days unpaid leave then assuming there are 250 working days in the year, the public sector is overstaffed by 6% . .

We should be looking at a combination of a) benchmarked pay cuts to bring the public sector back in line with their private sector colleagues and b) redundancies to bring the numbers down to the level that is required to efficiently run the public sector ! Nothing else makes any sense . . .

No, that's not what we should be looking at, I have read most of your posts and for you until the Public Sector workers are homeless you and some other begrudging private sector workers won't be happy.

The PS isn't over staffed, what would more than likely happen is that an already stretched sector would be asked to work harder to try to avoid loss of service.

I am listening to my collegues in here and every one of them in here has accepted that there will be cuts in pay, even if again it is disguised as something else (Pension Levy). Why can't you accept that you are getting more paycut in the PS.

As Luke Kelly said best "begrudgers and beguilers"

BaZmO*

Wiley1 wrote: »

The PS isn't over staffed,

Haha. You are joking right?

Wiley1 wrote: »

As Luke Kelly said best "begrudgers and beguilers"

Bit rich really considering the PS weren't exactly quiet about asking for their wages to be brought in line with the private sector during the good times. Now that the situation has been reversed they're not too willing to be brought in line with the private sector.

hallelujajordan

Wiley1 wrote: »

No, that's not what we should be looking at, I have read most of your posts and for you until the Public Sector workers are homeless you and some other begrudging private sector workers won't be happy.

The PS isn't over staffed, what would more than likely happen is that an already stretched sector would be asked to work harder to try to avoid loss of service.

I am listening to my collegues in here and every one of them in here has accepted that there will be cuts in pay, even if again it is disguised as something else (Pension Levy). Why can't you accept that you are getting more paycut in the PS.

As Luke Kelly said best "begrudgers and beguilers"

You, and Diarmad Doyle (who you quote) are trying to attack an argument that is not being made in order to win more sympathy for your case. . . No-one (especially not me ) is arguing that those in the public sector should be made homeless. No-one is describing the Public sector workers as "the most evil, self-centred, lazy, opportunistic, stupid, dishonest and vile group of individuals Ireland has ever known." You can try to polarise the argument in this way because it suits you to adopt the victim position but I (and others I expect) can see through it.

All I am calling for is equity across the sectors. I want a public sector that is paid a fair and reasonable wage that compares to their private sector counterparts. I want a public sector that will reduce in size so that is as small as it needs to be to get the job done efficiently. This is the model that we have to work to in the private sector and it works !

My posts have been fair and balanced and all about equity as anyone on here can read for themselves but for those who are unlikely to read through hundreds of post, please don't misrepresent me

diverdriver

For those of you slow on the uptake Cowen said today:

'The government doesn't have the money to meet the public service pay bill'

Argue away that's the simple truth.

ejmaztec

diverdriver wrote: »

For those of you slow on the uptake Cowen said today:

'The government doesn't have the money to meet the public service pay bill'

Argue away that's the simple truth.

A lot of the private sector hasn't got the money to meet the private sector pay bill, but unfortunately we can't freeze ours, and have thousands of people on the streets demonstrating.

I've hardly had the time for Boards over the past few days, in an effort to try and prevent my private sector pay dropping any further.

People like me are taking cuts whether we like it or not, and so should everybody else in this country.

Gutless Cowen has completely lost the plot now.

RodgerTheDoger

ejmaztec wrote: »

A lot of the private sector hasn't got the money to meet the private sector pay bill, but unfortunately we can't freeze ours, and have thousands of people on the streets demonstrating.

I've hardly had the time for Boards over the past few days, in an effort to try and prevent my private sector pay dropping any further.

People like me are taking cuts whether we like it or not, and so should everybody else in this country.

Gutless Cowen has completely lost the plot now.

In my head I can hear the country making that TV plane noise just before it crashes into the mountin....

It will not matter, no matter how stubborn PS workers want to be or how dumb our government is you cannot take something from nothing and we will only be allowed to borrow for so long. The fact that we are seemingly going to allow this to happen is crazy!

zebrafumbler

I take a far more militant approach to the situation. I beleive the unions need to be confronted and if needs be smashed to smithereens. Time for the jackboot to stamp down hard on lefties and other do gooder sorts. Unfortunately we don't have any leaders like Thatcher who arn't afraid to get their hands dirty.

Shea O'Meara

zebrafumbler wrote: »

I take a far more militant approach to the situation. I beleive the unions need to be confronted and if needs be smashed to smithereens. Time for the jackboot to stamp down hard on lefties and other do gooder sorts. Unfortunately we don't have any leaders like Thatcher who arn't afraid to get their hands dirty.

Good one

P. Breathnach

zebrafumbler wrote: »

I take a far more militant approach to the situation. I beleive the unions need to be confronted and if needs be smashed to smithereens. Time for the jackboot to stamp down hard on lefties and other do gooder sorts. ...

And then we would be left under the control of people like you. No thank you. I'll meet you on the barricades.

Shea O'Meara

I was hoping it was sarcasm

TCP/IP_King

diverdriver wrote: »

For those of you slow on the uptake Cowen said today:

'The government doesn't have the money to meet the public service pay bill'

Argue away that's the simple truth.

'The government does have the money to meet the bank and developer bailout' which will swallow more of your tax dollars over the next 10 years than any public sector wage bill.

murphaph

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

'The government does have the money to meet the bank and developer bailout' which will swallow more of your tax dollars over the next 10 years than any public sector wage bill.

Nobody wants to see money given to banks, but Ireland is far from unique in this regard. Germany will have to stump up another few billion shortly. Letting the banks all fold doesn't appear to have been an option to Germany, UK etc. so why would Ireland have been different?

Do you think the private sector wants to see all their taxes given to the banks (and teachers on 60 grand a year+)?

TCP/IP_King

More insubstantiated opinion. From my own personal experience, and I've worked in the Public Sector, the Private Sector, and ran my own business in the years since 1984 (thats my credentials set out) ...

hallelujajordan wrote: »

... Simple reality 1 : Pro-rata Public sector employees in Ireland are paid more than their private sector counterparts and more than the vast majority of their EU counterparts. This deal will not change this one iota.

Not true. I'm currently on a contract with a government department and my counterpart earns less than me, has an inflexible PAYE structure and has enforced wage cuts - something which my colleagues and I have avoided so far.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

... Simple reality 2 : The government can no longer afford to pay salaries at the current level.

But they can spend my tax dollars for the next 10 years propping up a corrupt financial system and a failed property sector !!

hallelujajordan wrote: »

... Simple reality 3 : If the public sector can operate with everyone taking (for example) 15 days unpaid leave then assuming there are 250 working days in the year, the public sector is overstaffed by 6% . .

More spurious statistik, I didn't catch any commentator today or yesterday saying that our public services will operate in the face of cutbacks of any kind.

The simple reality is that in the absence of leadership, and we have had none for the last decade, IBEC, ICTU and the banking industry will fill the vacuum and steer us all according to their own agenda.

irish_bob

zebrafumbler wrote: »

I take a far more militant approach to the situation. I beleive the unions need to be confronted and if needs be smashed to smithereens. Time for the jackboot to stamp down hard on lefties and other do gooder sorts. Unfortunately we don't have any leaders like Thatcher who arn't afraid to get their hands dirty.

thier is a wonderfull opportunity for fine gael to fill the vacum that has been created by the unions and the goverment inaction , if fine gael come out and declare war on the unions and make an all out pitch for the private sector and unemployed former private sector vote , they will clean up at the next election , the private sector non fat cat voter has zero voice in this country but 1st fine gael must replace kenny as leader , he is a massive turn off to a huge number of people and makes the swing voter nervous

Wiley1

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

'The government does have the money to meet the bank and developer bailout' which will swallow more of your tax dollars over the next 10 years than any public sector wage bill.

Brilliant and true, did any of us get a choice in that? Nope!!

hallelujajordan

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

Not true. I'm currently on a contract with a government department and my counterpart earns less than me, has an inflexible PAYE structure and has enforced wage cuts - something which my colleagues and I have avoided so far.

While I respect and acknowledge your personal opinion and experience it does not belie the research that has been discussed earlier in this thread that clearly demonstrates a differential of somewhere between 25 and 40% between the two sectors. . . There is lots of clear evidence that our nurses are paid 30% more than those in neighbouring countries and our teachers are amongst the highest paid in Europe.

But they can spend my tax dollars for the next 10 years propping up a corrupt financial system and a failed property sector !!

Yes, because as is the case across all economies the government have no real choice but to recapitalise failing banks.. The alternative is Icelandic style bankruptcy. In fact, this is happening to a greater extent in other economies.

NAMA, while transferring risk from the banks to the taxpayer is not actually costing us any tax dollars.

More spurious statistik, I didn't catch any commentator today or yesterday saying that our public services will operate in the face of cutbacks of any kind.

David Begg stated in interview this evening that no public services would suffer as a result of this unpaid leave. If this is the case then there is a clear argument that the public service is overstaffed.

zebrafumbler

It's quite easy to see how fascist dictators can rise to power when theres a weak government in charge of a country kowtowing to Union leaders . On a number of occasions, Cowen has proven how weak and ineffective he is as leader; not to mention no charisma. We need a strong visionary leader to take us out of the trouble we are in, unfortunately all we have is Mr Potato head Cowen. As seen as there doesn't appear to be much in the way of an alternative to his leadership maybe it would be a good thing if the IMF came in. Is it any wonder why union leaders and clergy are the first to go when an American backed fascist dictator comes to power in Latin America.

TCP/IP_King

hallelujajordan wrote: »

...NAMA, while transferring risk from the banks to the taxpayer is not actually costing us any tax dollars.

Overpaying for Nama may hit taxpayer for €30bn


The Irish Times - Tuesday, September 15, 2009