Public sector pay: the wrong debate

irish_bob

RodgerTheDoger wrote: »

Today I see in the news papers that, small and medium sized business's are threatening not to pay their tax if the government does not take a firm stance in addressing the reduction needed in Public sector costs.

fair play to them , if someone were to organise a demonstration which represents the tax payer , i would gladly attend

Wiley1

RodgerTheDoger wrote: »

Well maybe not for you, but on average it is. There are always going to be those at the lower end of the pay scale even in the Public sector. The average is 50K according to my earlier link.

Where did you get your information, I'd like the hard evidence...

Wiley1

BaZmO* wrote: »

Really? What about a 25 year old in her fourth year of teaching primary school children?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2009/1124/1224259332656.html?via=mr

And I never said 50K a year I said 45K

Don't believe all you read in the press, sure aren't the press running the country really?

Spiritoftheseventies

Hearing stories left right and centre about centre about civil servants retirements because of tax on Lump sump on their pension. Either government is trying to get rid of the drift wood or its another classic own goal. Lost count of the scoreline at this stage.

NinjaTruncs

Why do you think it's an own goal?

Most PS workers close to retirement should be on the top of their pay scale, or clsoe to it, if the gov can get them to retire and replace them with newer people the wage bill will get reduce significantly, while also helping to generate new employment.

Riskymove

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

, if the gov can get them to retire and replace them with newer people the wage bill will get reduce significantly, while also helping to generate new employment.

it'll reduce it even more significantly when you take into account that they are not replacing people who retire early

fartmaster

The people who work in the public sector are not the people responsible for the current recession, its a well documented fact the government and espically those involved in running the banking system (private sector) are the ones responsible...FACT. I find this scapegoating of the public sector just another way to lay the blame on innocent ordinary working people while those responsible get away with their millions. Why are the government squabbling over a petty 1.3 biilion when NAMA eclipises this dramitically to the tune of some 50+ billion. FFS Wake up ordinary people of Ireland!

norrie rugger

gamblor1975 wrote: »

The Govt. needs to address public sector pay including Nurses,teachers and gardai but should really start at the top. They should not be allowed to set their own renumeration, its a joke.

Private sector here but i think that is is unfair to target nurses, gardai, fire service, EMT

These are highly trained and (generally) highly professional people, that work grueling shift patterns. When I was working shift in a professional entry level job I was earning more than any of these, who were at the same level of years worked. Now there are many examples within each of these professions where there is fat to trim but that should involve resource reallocation, such as not having a fully paid cop on reception or 3 nurses handling an outpatient clinic, when one properly working/trained admin could handle it.

Teachers can bugger right off with their huge holidays and the admin staff who have very little work to actually do should be the prime target. The targeting of the PubS, as a single entity, is a mistake IMHO. It is like saying that every job in the PriS is equivalent to the next

Tipp Man

fartmaster wrote: »

The people who work in the public sector are not the people responsible for the current recession, its a well documented fact the government and espically those involved in running the banking system (private sector) are the ones responsible...FACT.!

please explain your FACT to me, how are the banks responsible for deficit of 20 something billion between receipts of 30 odd billion and expenditure of 50 odd billion, please explain it in some detail to me, I'm not too sharp

norrie rugger

fartmaster wrote: »

The people who work in the public sector are not the people responsible for the current recession, its a well documented fact the government and espically those involved in running the banking system (private sector) are the ones responsible...FACT. I find this scapegoating of the public sector just another way to lay the blame on innocent ordinary working people while those responsible get away with their millions. Why are the government squabbling over a petty 1.3 biilion when NAMA eclipises this dramitically to the tune of some 50+ billion. FFS Wake up ordinary people of Ireland!

The public sector are just as much to blame, granting permission to developers to build white elephants, in the middle of knowwhere. HSE taking huge amounts of money and hiring extra (not needed) admin staff and giving a worse service. Etc Etc

The private sector average joes are already shouldering the burden of their bosses by taking 100% wage cuts (called redundancy), pay freezes, recruitment freezes and general wage cuts.
It really is time that the PubS starts taking some also. They are already generally better paid, still with better pension benefits and (up to now) amazing job security!!

Benchmarking should work both ways children

fartmaster

Tipp Man wrote: »

please explain your FACT to me, how are the banks responsible for deficit of 20 something billion between receipts of 30 odd billion and expenditure of 50 odd billion, please explain it in some detail to me, I'm not too sharp

Its quite simple and obivious though since your not to 'sharp' read closely and re-read as many as times as necessary before replying.

Banks loaned crazy amounts of money to developers in something that was called the property bubble, this bubble was completely the fault of the bankers who were only in it for their own gained and destroyed the Irish property market, thus leading to a monsterous recession. The recession and state of the country at present is entirely their fault. The PS and the MAJORITY that work in it are on less than 30K a year and bought houses (like many poeple in other jobs) at grossely over inflated prices, which are now only worth a % of what they bought them for!! Thank you mister banker for fooking up Irekland for generations

dubmick

norrie rugger wrote: »

The public sector are just as much to blame, granting permission to developers to build white elephants, in the middle of knowwhere. HSE taking huge amounts of money and hiring extra (not needed) admin staff and giving a worse service. Etc Etc

Such a rubbish generalisation, do you think the thousands of clerical officers, Ambulance men, Gardai or Nurses in this country had anything to with the above?

norrie rugger

dubmick wrote: »

Such a rubbish generalisation, do you think the thousands of clerical officers, Ambulance men, Gardai or Nurses in this country had anything to with the above?

Such a rubbish generalisation, do you think that the thousands of shop workers, brewers, car salespeople, pub workers, journalists, lorry drivers, taxi drivers etc in this country had anything to do with the above?

Please try to be consistant

Sonic_exyouth

norrie rugger wrote: »

The public sector are just as much to blame, granting permission to developers to build white elephants, in the middle of knowwhere. HSE taking huge amounts of money and hiring extra (not needed) admin staff and giving a worse service. Etc Etc

The private sector average joes are already shouldering the burden of their bosses by taking 100% wage cuts (called redundancy), pay freezes, recruitment freezes and general wage cuts.
It really is time that the PubS starts taking some also. They are already generally better paid, still with better pension benefits and (up to now) amazing job security!!

Benchmarking should work both ways children

People on Redundency get a lump sum, and their rent paid and over €200 for doing nothing.
There is already a recruitment freeze, and a pay cut in the PubService.Thusly, the phrase "It really is time that the PubS starts taking some also" makes no obvious sense.Also, according to the Irish Times Survey 66% of people have not suffered any pay cut - yet 100% of the entire Public service have.
Also, the people "granting permission to developers to build white elephants, in the middle of knowwhere" were elected, not general public service workers. And the people who elected them, overwhelmingly, were the Private sector.

dubmick

norrie rugger wrote: »

Such a rubbish generalisation, do you think that the thousands of shop workers, brewers, car salespeople, pub workers, journalists, lorry drivers, taxi drivers etc in this country had anything to do with the above?

Please try to be consistant

you specifically said the Public sector were to blame

norrie rugger

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

People on Redundency get a lump sum, and their rent paid and over €200 for doing nothing.There is already a recruitment freeze, and a pay cut in the PubService.Thusly, the phrase "It really is time that the PubS starts taking some also" makes no obvious sense.Also, according to the Irish Times Survey 66% of people have not suffered any pay cut - yet 100% of the entire Public service have.
Also, the people "granting permission to developers to build white elephants, in the middle of knowwhere" were elected, not general public service workers. And the people who elected them, overwhelmingly, were the Private sector.

66% of people have not taken a pay cut? that is because companies have let people go, of the remaining 33% still have taken a cut. Also, honestly, I think that it is about time that they started paying something almost approaching sensible, for their pensions

How many public sector people have been let go? they also get redundancies if they are EVER let go

I never knew that an board planeala (SP) were elected, i must have missed that vote

oh edit
so would ANYONE who gets made redundant in the public sector, please keep social welfare receipt out of this

norrie rugger

dubmick wrote: »

you specifically said the Public sector were to blame

No
I said "as much to blame" as your "Bankers (Private Sector)" comment, not entire pub sector or fully to blame, as you mention a section of the private sector is fully to blame.

Sonic_exyouth

norrie rugger wrote: »

66% of people have not taken a pay cut? that is because companies have let people go, of the remaining 33% still have taken a cut. Also, honestly, I think that it is about time that they started paying something almost approaching sensible, for their pensions

How many public sector people have been let go? they also get redundancies if they are EVER let go

I never knew that an board planeala (SP) were elected, i must have missed that vote

An Bord Pleanála (The Planning Board) is the Irish national planning appeals board.The decisions on re-Zoning land are made on a local level.

Sonic_exyouth

norrie rugger wrote: »

66% of people have not taken a pay cut? that is because companies have let people go, of the remaining 33% still have taken a cut. Also, honestly, I think that it is about time that they started paying something almost approaching sensible, for their pensions

How many public sector people have been let go? they also get redundancies if they are EVER let go

I never knew that an board planeala (SP) were elected, i must have missed that vote

oh edit
so would ANYONE who gets made redundant in the public sector, please keep social welfare receipt out of this

Re: your edit
That is true, you are the one dividing the proletariat up into sectors, ignoring the wealthy.

Tipp Man

fartmaster wrote: »

Its quite simple and obivious though since your not to 'sharp' read closely and re-read as many as times as necessary before replying.

Banks loaned crazy amounts of money to developers in something that was called the property bubble, this bubble was completely the fault of the bankers who were only in it for their own gained and destroyed the Irish property market, thus leading to a monsterous recession. The recession and state of the country at present is entirely their fault. The PS and the MAJORITY that work in it are on less than 30K a year and bought houses (like many poeple in other jobs) at grossely over inflated prices, which are now only worth a % of what they bought them for!! Thank you mister banker for fooking up Irekland for generations

Hmmm as expected you replied with a load of bull and completly ignored how the government was able to afford huge increase in ps pay since 2000 and now can't take those increases back

I'll respond later from the computer with domes figures for you to mull over

dubmick

norrie rugger wrote: »

No
I said "as much to blame" as your "Bankers (Private Sector)" comment, not entire pub sector or fully to blame, as you mention a section of the private sector is fully to blame.

Please show me where I said anything about Bankers (Private Sector)

irish_bob

norrie rugger wrote: »

66% of people have not taken a pay cut? that is because companies have let people go, of the remaining 33% still have taken a cut. Also, honestly, I think that it is about time that they started paying something almost approaching sensible, for their pensions

How many public sector people have been let go? they also get redundancies if they are EVER let go

I never knew that an board planeala (SP) were elected, i must have missed that vote

oh edit
so would ANYONE who gets made redundant in the public sector, please keep social welfare receipt out of this

plus a sizeable number of private sector workers are on minimum wage so its impossible for them to have taken a pay cut , someone earlier stated that the majority of public sector workers earned under 30 k , horse****

TCP/IP_King

norrie rugger wrote: »

...How many public sector people have been let go? they also get redundancies if they are EVER let go...

Heres 12 for a start ...
http://www.siptu.ie/PressRoom/NewsReleases/2009/Name,11294,en.html

TCP/IP_King

Tipp Man wrote: »

Hmmm as expected you replied with a load of bull and completly ignored how the government was able to afford huge increase in ps pay since 2000 and now can't take those increases back

I'll respond later from the computer with domes figures for you to mull over

Hmmm mull over "Separating Fact from Fiction on Earnings" while your waiting
http://www.siptu.ie/PressRoom/TheEconomy/FileDownload,11297,en.pdf

norrie rugger

dubmick wrote: »

Please show me where I said anything about Bankers (Private Sector)

apologies, mixed up posters. The point still stands, i said as much to blame as a sector of private sector

gurramok

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

Heres 12 for a start ...
http://www.siptu.ie/PressRoom/NewsReleases/2009/Name,11294,en.html

Temp staff, try harder.

jesus!tony

E-mail from Brain Lenihan (yeah I'm that important )

Next week, I will deliver Budget 2010 to the Dáil. The Government has to make some very difficult choices. Some of the measures we will have to introduce will be unpopular. I am mailing you to tell you why these measures are necessary.

The economic future of this country is on the line. As a small open economy, we are highly dependent on trade and on foreign investment. We need to show the world that we are capable of getting our economy back on track. Our tax revenues are now back at 2003 levels. But since then, our spending on day-to-day services has risen by 70%.

This is unsustainable.

The experience of the 1980s shows us that if we delay in tackling this problem, we will quickly get into a spiral of mounting debt and ever-increasing interest costs. If we live in denial and continue to borrow to try to sustain boom-era lifestyles, we will surely condemn our children to a life less prosperous than ours.

We must not allow this to happen.

We must restore confidence in order to begin the process of economic recovery. The best way to inspire confidence in consumers, in investors, and in the international markets who lend us money, is to show that we can take the necessary steps to get ourselves in order. That is why the Government has committed to reducing the deficit by €4 billion next year.

Next week's Budget will be difficult for everyone. It will be a test of our ability to rise above our current difficulties, to get beyond sectional interests, and to return to the road of economic recovery.

For our party, it will be a test of our ability to put aside short term political considerations and to act, as we have done many times in our history, in the interests of the common good.

I hope you will support us in the difficult decisions we must take to get Ireland back on the road to economic prosperity.

Yours sincerely,

Brian Lenihan, TD
Minister for Finance

monosharp

Just listening to the amount of rubbish the public sector gets away with at home is sickening.

Let me tell you about the public sector in Korea.

And these are my direct experiences/knowledge.

Public transport: is all semi-private. What this mean is that private company's operate the bus routes/subway lines but they are under the authority of the government and if they don't do the job right they get replaced.

Consequences: Almost always on time and when they are late you'll never be waiting long. The subway is like clockwork, the buses are a little less so because of unpredictable traffic.

How they do it : If bus drivers finish their route late it comes out of their break before their next route. If a worker does not work properly, his direct bosses are private sector who will kick his ass into place.

Office work (Immigration office): Extremely rude to foreigners, because we have no power. Enter my wife. Suddenly a complete attitude change.

Why attitude change : Because even though the Immigration office workers are in the public sector, the public sector in Korea is ran like a private company. i.e > the public are your 'customers'. My wife could have complained about the worker and a complaint is very serious for them. Enough complaints = reduction in pay, passed up for promotion or even been let go.

Yes friends thats right. Public sector workers actually have to WORK or they can get fired. And its not uncommon at all.

Teachers : The summer off paid to arse around at whatever they want. NOT

Why are we putting up with the rubbish our public sector are at ?

jesus!tony

wow can we have that here?

norrie rugger

are you mad? Of course not
this is ireland