Public sector pay: the wrong debate

Shea O'Meara

Just a note;

"Confidential documents seen by The Sunday Business Post show that the state is spending between €14million and €15 million a year maintaining and improving the Garda Pulse system, which is only operational in half of all Garda stations some 15 years after it was launched."

There's where a few bob of your tax dollar is going, but I don't see FF pitting the Private Sector against these Private Sector consultant chaps. Just saying, we should focus on the Government a little more.

Can they not just turn it off and then back on again?

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/...story42766.asp

irish_bob

sunflower27 wrote: »

I agree with this. I am in the private sector and am fortunately safe enough in my current job, although I was made redundant at the start of the recession last year after being in the job 6 years!!! I know a good few people in the private sector that have lost jobs, had pay cuts or pay freezes.

Of those I know in the public sector, there was never a serious threat of losing a job.

I would happily take a 5% pay cut if it meant my employment was secure.

Yes, things are tough but losing 5% or whatever to keep my job... I'd do it without a second thought.

20% of the private sector have become unemployed in the past two years , less than 1% of the public sector workforce have lost thier jobs in the same period and most of those were not even permanent

it time those public sector workers who saw ovedue cuts yesterday got some perspective

BaZmO*

There was a woman on the Matt Cooper show this evening who worked in the public sector. She was saying that all this talk about people in the private sector was over hyped because she didn't know anybody that has taken a pay cut but she said that knew a few that lost there jobs. :rolleyes:

Does it really need to be spelt out for some people?
If someone hasn't taken a pay cut in the private sector it's because of one of two reasons. 1) They are in the extreme minority of companies that have not been affected by the down turn, or 2) They work in a company that has let go staff to allow wages to remain unchanged.

I hate the way this whole thing has turned into a private versus public battle but there really needs to be some perspective from the public sector.

gizmo555

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Just a note;

"Confidential documents seen by The Sunday Business Post show that the state is spending between €14million and €15 million a year maintaining and improving the Garda Pulse system, which is only operational in half of all Garda stations some 15 years after it was launched."

"Pulse", if I recall correctly, is an acronym for Police Using Leading edge Systems Efficiently, or some similar cobblers . . . some mistake there . . .

irish_bob

BaZmO* wrote: »

There was a woman on the Matt Cooper show this evening who worked in the public sector. She was saying that all this talk about people in the private sector was over hyped because she didn't know anybody that has taken a pay cut but she said that knew a few that lost there jobs. :rolleyes:

Does it really need to be spelt out for some people?
If someone hasn't taken a pay cut in the private sector it's because of one of two reasons. 1) They are in the extreme minority of companies that have not been affected by the down turn, or 2) They work in a company that has let go staff to allow wages to remain unchanged.

I hate the way this whole thing has turned into a private versus public battle but there really needs to be some perspective from the public sector.

its called willfull ignorance , it wasnt by any chance that teacher lady who sounds like twink ( posh twink ) and who is always full of righteous indignation

thomasmi

go get a little productive business also work in a small gov. job and escape any banking connection a great clear life is yours

sunflower27

irish_bob wrote: »

20% of the private sector have become unemployed in the past two years , less than 1% of the public sector workforce have lost thier jobs in the same period and most of those were not even permanent

it time those public sector workers who saw ovedue cuts yesterday got some perspective

Thanks for the figures.

I agree re the perspective - A 5% cut is sweet FA. What does that amount to a week? A few packets of ciggies and a few pints. Dry your bloody eyes and get on with it....

irish_bob

sunflower27 wrote: »

Thanks for the figures.

I agree re the perspective - A 5% cut is sweet FA. What does that amount to a week? A few packets of ciggies and a few pints. Dry your bloody eyes and get on with it....

in the interest of balance , it should be stated that its 5% for those earning up to 30 k , 7% for those up to 50 k and up to 15% for those earning above 150 k

siochan84

murphaph wrote: »

Anyone who thinks Ireland is a low-cost/low wage economy needs their head examined. Come to Germany-NO MINIMUM WAGE at all here! People work for €400 a month and it's legal. Not moral IMO, but legal! And this is a perceived "high cost economy".

In Germany when your year I unemployment benefit runs out you step down to ALGII (€351 oer month plus rent paid in a SMALL apartment for a single person). That's all you get.

It encourages people to work that's for sure!

Irish people need to understand something-the standard of living to which we became accustomed (everyone believed they should own a 3 bed semi and two newish cars) was much more than most of their european neighbours would ever expect. Ireland never had a right to such wealth as the country did not and still does not produce (indiginously) things that the world wants. All Ireland does is host FDI and now that is too expensive there so it's game over unless costs fall dramatically and/or Ireland starts to develop true indiginous high value industry, like Finland for example.

It goes without saying that the public sector is way overpaid, even at the lower levels, in comparison to our european neighbours.

I disagree. Maybe some are overpaid but not all public sector workers are overpaid in anyway shape or form. Your forgeting that like in the private sector, there are people in the public sector that too study and train for 4 years for a degree in college. Various professions take for. e.g the nursing profession. Nurses train and study for 4 years for a Bachelor of Science degree in in Nursing, they are professionals and should be treated as such, that should include a decent salary.

I don't think the majority of public sector workers mind taking a pay cut. But what the public sector do feel is that the burden of this recession is not being evenly distributed amongst each sector. I was listening to the radio the other day, a private sector worker called up Gerry Ryan to say he was earning 100, 000 a year and that him and his wife have not been affected by the recession. He said he wanted to contribute something as he felt it was unfair that some are baring the brunt more than others. He isn't the only one out there saying that, there are many more who agree.

If you look at the figures for the cuts in the budget 2010, you don't need to have a mathematicians brain to figure out that it is extremely divided and has been harshly and unevenly distributed to the public sector workers. Read the newspapers, listen to prime time, they are all making the same point. The public sector have the biggest price to pay though they had no part to play in this recession caused by the pure greed of developers and bankers. I personally would like to donate my money to all those poor people affected by the floods, screw the greedy banks. My friend works in a bank and he actually got a bonus at the height of the recession.

thebman

siochan84 wrote: »

I disagree. Maybe some are overpaid but not all public sector workers are overpaid in anyway shape or form. Your forgeting that like in the private sector, there are people in the public sector that too study and train for 4 years for a degree in college. Various professions take for. e.g the nursing profession. Nurses train and study for 4 years for a Bachelor of Science degree in in Nursing, they are professionals and should be treated as such, that should include a decent salary.

I don't think the majority of public sector workers mind taking a pay cut. But what the public sector do feel is that the burden of this recession is not being evenly distributed amongst each sector. I was listening to the radio the other day, a private sector worker called up Gerry Ryan to say he was earning 100, 000 a year and that him and his wife have not been affected by the recession. He said he wanted to contribute something as he felt it was unfair that some are baring the brunt more than others. He isn't the only one out there saying that, there are many more who agree.

If you look at the figures for the cuts in the budget 2010, you don't need to have a mathematicians brain to figure out that it is extremely divided and has been harshly and unevenly distributed to the public sector workers. Read the newspapers, listen to prime time, they are all making the same point. The public sector have the biggest price to pay though they had no part to play in this recession caused by the pure greed of developers and bankers. I personally would like to donate my money to all those poor people affected by the floods, screw the greedy banks. My friend works in a bank and he actually got a bonus at the height of the recession.

The problem is in the private sector there will inevitably be those effected and those not effected as it isn't a single entity.

You can't say there are 5 people uneffected in the private sector by the recession so tax them more. Taxes apply to everyone and others will be harshly effected by tax increases and it could make employers not be able to keep people on or keep going at all to increase taxes on the private sector.

They are creating a bond so that those people can contribute if they want to. Can't remember the name but let them put their money where their mouth is then. I imagine many will decide they'd rather have the money when it is issued.

Personally I could pay more tax no problem because I have looked after my cost of living and I have no problem paying more tax for public services once there has been reform and the waste go rid of and accountability is in place. We need to know we are getting value for our money. So many crazy stories come out and the Health service is a bloated mess. We need proper reform before the private sector should be asked to pay more. We aren't getting value for money and much of the facilities the public sector workers want could be built/given if it wasn't for the waste.

That is the government and the unions fault. It needs to stop.

irish_bob

siochan84 wrote: »

I disagree. Maybe some are overpaid but not all public sector workers are overpaid in anyway shape or form. Your forgeting that like in the private sector, there are people in the public sector that too study and train for 4 years for a degree in college. Various professions take for. e.g the nursing profession. Nurses train and study for 4 years for a Bachelor of Science degree in in Nursing, they are professionals and should be treated as such, that should include a decent salary.

I don't think the majority of public sector workers mind taking a pay cut. But what the public sector do feel is that the burden of this recession is not being evenly distributed amongst each sector. I was listening to the radio the other day, a private sector worker called up Gerry Ryan to say he was earning 100, 000 a year and that him and his wife have not been affected by the recession. He said he wanted to contribute something as he felt it was unfair that some are baring the brunt more than others. He isn't the only one out there saying that, there are many more who agree.

If you look at the figures for the cuts in the budget 2010, you don't need to have a mathematicians brain to figure out that it is extremely divided and has been harshly and unevenly distributed to the public sector workers. Read the newspapers, listen to prime time, they are all making the same point. The public sector have the biggest price to pay though they had no part to play in this recession caused by the pure greed of developers and bankers. I personally would like to donate my money to all those poor people affected by the floods, screw the greedy banks. My friend works in a bank and he actually got a bonus at the height of the recession.

we have among the highest paid if not thee highest paid nurses in the eu in ireland , the average salary is 50 k per year and a nurse entering the proffesion can expect to earn 31 k per year , nurses are overpaid IMO

ps , its not in the public sectors interest to see private sector wages being cut , this will mean less revenue for which to pay public servants

baschicaly

reduced private sector wages = loss to the exchequer
reduced public sector wages = gain to the exchequer

pah

irish_bob wrote: »

we have among the highest paid if not thee highest paid nurses in the eu in ireland , the average salary is 50 k per year and a nurse entering the proffesion can expect to earn 31 k per year , nurses are overpaid IMO

Not overpaid IMO for the hours they work and the job they have to do.

Cuts had to come in fair enough, I just hope the Govt won't come knocking solely on the Public Sector door for savings towards next years €4Billion in cuts.

Wiley1

BaZmO* wrote: »

I hate the way this whole thing has turned into a private versus public battle but there really needs to be some perspective from the public sector.

You hate the way it's a versus battle between sectors yet you say the public sector needs perspective, is that comment not fuelling the fire....

We have got the pay cuts that all you blood thirsty begrudgers were after. Do you feel like Judas backing a greedy brutal bunch of liers in government against the ordinary Joe.

When the government stiffed the PS and the unions, and when the talks broke down something died in this country, from my own point of view and my collegues point of view there will be a loss of service now that every ordinary worker has been hit.

We were the easy targets and the private sector backed them up. Shame isn't a word i'd even consider using for this....

sunflower27

Wiley1 wrote: »

You hate the way it's a versus battle between sectors yet you say the public sector needs perspective, is that comment not fuelling the fire....

We have got the pay cuts that all you blood thirsty begrudgers were after. Do you feel like Judas backing a greedy brutal bunch of liers in government against the ordinary Joe.

When the government stiffed the PS and the unions, and when the talks broke down something died in this country, from my own point of view and my collegues point of view there will be a loss of service now that every ordinary worker has been hit.

We were the easy targets and the private sector backed them up. Shame isn't a word i'd even consider using for this....

And you have the security that most people in the private sector can only dream about.

Blood-thirsty begrudgers? Completely OTT.

Get a grip. You've had it good for a long time and now you are taking a cut and you are banging on as if you have lost everything.

Think of the people in the private sector that are unable to pay their mortgages becazuse their jobs are GONE, that are unable buy presents for their children and feed them this Christams and then you have something to really moan about.

Wiley1

sunflower27 wrote: »

Thanks for the figures.

I agree re the perspective - A 5% cut is sweet FA. What does that amount to a week? A few packets of ciggies and a few pints. Dry your bloody eyes and get on with it....

That's the thing, we do get on with it, We don't call for you're private sector wages to be cut, what about all the semi-state bodies, what way does that work with the pay cuts. It's time you got perspective on common decency towards your fellow person.

BaZmO*

Wiley1 wrote: »

We don't call for you're private sector wages to be cut,

No, but you called for your wages to be brought in line with the private sector during the good times. Now when we are experiencing bad times you're not too willing to have your wages brought back in line with the private sector.

sunflower27

A call for private wages to be cut when so many have been let go with nothing but statutory redundancy already?

The figure touted on here is 20% of private sector jobs gone.

I'm sorry, but the small amount of cuts you are being forced to accept when most people in the private sector have not been able to sleep in over a year for fear of being let go really is unreasonable IMO.

Common decency. Oh please. What was the public sector doing when the private sector was being slashed left right and centre. Sweet FA eh!

I didnt hear anything from the public service then and now we are meant to rally behind you. No chance I'm afraid - from me at least.

MaceFace

Wiley1 wrote: »

When the government stiffed the PS and the unions, and when the talks broke down something died in this country, from my own point of view and my collegues point of view there will be a loss of service now that every ordinary worker has been hit.

In that case it is a lose-lose situation. What your unions wanted was to cut services by unpaid leave. What you are now offering is a cutting of services because you feel agrieved. Very unprofessional.

What were the alternatives? All I hear was every reform under the sun was offered, even those that were already agreed but not implemented.
The government probably walked away because reform was agreed and paid for through benchmarking but the unions/workers stiffed us by taking the money and leaving us with a shoddy service.

Wiley1 wrote: »

We were the easy targets and the private sector backed them up. Shame isn't a word i'd even consider using for this....

Hmmmm.... how about you change the words "private sector" above to something more appropriate - "rest of the country not in the Public Service".

When will the deniers realise wages in every sector in this country is too high. The employers in the private sector are addressing this by either closing down, making redundancies, or giving pay decreases.
What the hell do you expect your employer to do?

Wiley1

sunflower27 wrote: »

And you have the security that most people in the private sector can only dream about.

Blood-thirsty begrudgers? Completely OTT.

Get a grip. You've had it good for a long time and now you are taking a cut and you are banging on as if you have lost everything.

Think of the people in the private sector that are unable to pay their mortgages becazuse their jobs are GONE, that are unable buy presents for their children and feed them this Christams and then you have something to really moan about.

Think of the people in the public sector that are in exactly the same position.

Are you so dillusional to think that there aren't single parents, low earners and mortgage holders in the public sector, Do you honestly think we don't have loans and bills to pay, are we some elite millionaire group? No, you get a grip, you can't comment on anyone's individual circumstances so don't. Bugrudgers, backing a bullsh*t government, Pat yourself on the back.

Wiley1

sunflower27 wrote: »

Common decency. Oh please. What was the public sector doing when the private sector was being slashed left right and centre. Sweet FA eh!

I didnt hear anything from the public service then and now we are meant to rally behind you. No chance I'm afraid - from me at least.

Exactly, you didn't hear us calling for your wages to be cut, we didn't complain or go greedily looking for the biggest bonus paying jobs in the private sector, there were tonnes of jobs offered in the public sector right around the country but these job were beneath you. Now you and your greedy cohorts in government are screaming that we were reaping the rewards of the good times and have to be reigned in, One word for you Bo**ox.

Common decency, do you understand the term....ah the oul irish way is rearing it's ugly head again, Divide and conquer, the brits had us Paddy's pegged alright.

Same as today, lower the price of drink and they'll say nothing....

Mickey Mouse country.....

BaZmO*

Wiley1 wrote: »

Same as today, lower the price of drink and they'll say nothing....

The reason why alcohol was cut was to try and stop people heading north to by their drink. It wasn’t to try and placate the plebs, it was done to stop the economy loosing money to the north.

Wiley1

BaZmO* wrote: »

No, but you called for your wages to be brought in line with the private sector during the good times. Now when we are experiencing bad times you're not too willing to have your wages brought back in line with the private sector.

No Choice Bazmo, it's happened and is accepted, not agreed with though.

It's the us and them thing that's going on, you can't see the wood for the trees with this government, Can you understand that they have one section of the public creating a civil war of words with another.

Imagine !! One sector of workers in the same country, neighbours, friends, collegues calling for eachothers wages to be cut.

ONLY in this banana republic would this happen, We would be nearly better governed from UK. (God forgive me for saying that)....

Wiley1

BaZmO* wrote: »

The reason why alcohol was cut was to try and stop people heading north to by their drink. It wasn’t to try and placate the plebs, it was done to stop the economy loosing money to the north.

That's the best they could come up with, it's a sad state of affairs when a supposedly clever bunch of country governing people can't come up with alternatives right across the board for savings, I accept the public pay cuts had to be done, that's fair enough....

Surely they can come up with other Initiatives to get people working again other things like trying to get people on public transport, recycling, scrap FAS, ah anything!!! We are only 4 million, this country should be a doddle to run, we as a country don't even burn more deisel that Brimingham each year....We're tiny...and we are paying extortionate wages to a bunch of lying cheating grabbers to take money from us and turn us against eachother.....It's disheartening to say the least.

sunflower27

Wiley1 wrote: »

Think of the people in the public sector that are in exactly the same position.

Are you so dillusional to think that there aren't single parents, low earners and mortgage holders in the public sector, Do you honestly think we don't have loans and bills to pay, are we some elite millionaire group? No, you get a grip, you can't comment on anyone's individual circumstances so don't. Bugrudgers, backing a bullsh*t government, Pat yourself on the back.

FFS, cop on, we all have loans etc to pay. i didnt state the bleeding obvious.

Ask anyone in the private sector that LOST their job if they'd have preferred a pay cut instead of unemployment.

No, you arent a millionaire group, but you have JOBS, you have lost a small percentage of your salary, you aren't now faced with a christmas on the dole and a bleak future ahead going for jobs that hundreds of others will be going for.

BaZmO*

Wiley1, nobody is arguing that the country is being run by a bunch of incompetents. What's that saying about getting the government you deserve? :rolleyes:

But the point people were making was that they would've proved themselves to be even more incompetent (if that was possible) by not cutting public sector pay. It was/is a no brainer.

As I said earlier, the Private v Public sector debate is a pointless debate as most families aren't made up of all Private sector workers or all Public sector workers. It's a mixture of both so pithing one against the other is futile.

Count Dooku

Wiley1 wrote: »

Think of the people in the public sector that are in exactly the same position.

Are you so dillusional to think that there aren't single parents, low earners and mortgage holders in the public sector, Do you honestly think we don't have loans and bills to pay, are we some elite millionaire group? No, you get a grip, you can't comment on anyone's individual circumstances so don't. Bugrudgers, backing a bullsh*t government, Pat yourself on the back.

Difference is only that private sector workers didn’t demand to share pain their colleagues from public sector, while public servants wants private sector to suffer more, because they are in trouble.
PS I am not considering banks staff as part of private sector, because they are combining worse of both sectors and cost to taxpayers more.

Traumadoc

The costs of doing bussiness in Ireland is too much, now there have been reductions in public service costs , I will expect the government will try to reduce other costs such as ESB and post. I would expect further drives to reduce private sector pay in the near future. Especially when costs are reducing so much. ( I don't think the 5%cut will hurt the public service as much as made out. The elephant in the room however is mortgage repayments, if interest rates rise ( as theyare predicted to do)I would expect see major problems. In the meantime we have to grin and bear it - further cuts in pay for all parts of society will be needed.

Wiley1

sunflower27 wrote: »

FFS, cop on, we all have loans etc to pay. i didnt state the bleeding obvious.

Ask anyone in the private sector that LOST their job if they'd have preferred a pay cut instead of unemployment.

No, you arent a millionaire group, but you have JOBS, you have lost a small percentage of your salary, you aren't now faced with a christmas on the dole and a bleak future ahead going for jobs that hundreds of others will be going for.

As I said before, the public sector jobs were available and posted every week but some folks didn't want to work for the poor relation, then they lose their 100k job and start demanding retribution from the lads that did take up the public sector employment.

I have nothing but gratitude that i'm working and i totally understand and empathise with people on the dole, coming out of a home with 7 people of employable age I am the only one working, I know the story this christmas.

I'm not going to justify the fact that I have a job. I worked hard to get here and didn't get greedy and go for the bonus's and big private sector pay, but still have to foot the bill for something I can't control. B*lls to that.

Between, government, bankers and developers you and I are bothing feeling the pinch. Yet you still have loyalty to them calling for public sector pay cuts. If your own words "FFS cop on".

Wiley1

BaZmO* wrote: »

Wiley1, nobody is arguing that the country is being run by a bunch of incompetents. What's that saying about getting the government you deserve? :rolleyes:

But the point people were making was that they would've proved themselves to be even more incompetent (if that was possible) by not cutting public sector pay. It was/is a no brainer.

As I said earlier, the Private v Public sector debate is a pointless debate as most families aren't made up of all Private sector workers or all Public sector workers. It's a mixture of both so pithing one against the other is futile.

Ok, we're agreed, the government are pretty much useless, I agree public pay was a bill that had to be cut but I don't think that it should be the first thing on the agenda, Sinn Fein had a set of proposals that would have saved the government 7billion and left people on lower/social welfare money alone but FF wouldn't entertain anything only their look after number policy.

Public V Private stinks of FF to take the heat off them and what vexes me is that from reading this forum from start to finish it seems to me that the private guys on here attack us and we're always on the backfoot defending, figures and stats flying round that fuel the fire but don't bring anything positive to it all.

Anywho, Roll on a general election and get these crooks out.

BaZmO*

Wiley1 wrote: »

I'm not going to justify the fact that I have a job. I worked hard to get here and didn't get greedy and go for the bonus's and big private sector pay, but still have to foot the bill for something I can't control. B*lls to that.

Not everybody in the private sector got big bonuses and big pay packets, in much the same way that not everybody in the public sector are idle lazy sh1ts.