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Public sector pay: the wrong debate

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    #92
    stevoman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭stevoman


    TBH i find it hard to swallow this whole 25% mumbo jumbo. the public sector is such a broad range i dont know why they cant look at civil servants, guards, nurses etc seperatly instead of driving them all into the one catagory.

    Im a civil servant 10 years and i now make €492 take home each week. i have a mortgage, a child and a partner out of work. Not exactly raking it in after 10 years in the one job. took me this long to get to this point.

    these mathamaticians seems to be forgetting the cost of living here against other countrys.


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    #93
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    The realproblem is that the State have to borrow €400 mill a week to keep the public service that we have now running.

    no it isn't

    its borrowing €400m a week to make up the gap between revenue and expenditure

    it is not all going to the public sector wage bill


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    #94
    cavedave
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    stevoman

    Im a civil servant 10 years and i now make €492 take home each week. i have a mortgage, a child and a partner out of work. Not exactly raking it in after 10 years in the one job. took me this long to get to this point.

    This brings up another question. Say you were two people pretending to be single. Your income would be
    205 jobseekers assistance
    93 rent allowance (in Dublin)
    25 fuel allowance, bins, medical card, clothing allowance, (maybe some others)

    So that is about 650 a week if you are two single people. At a take home of about 580 euro a week your partner gets no jobseekers assistance due to the means testing limits.

    So are you better off not working and not being a family? If so is that a bad incentive to have in a society?


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    #95
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    stevoman wrote: »
    TBH i find it hard to swallow this whole 25% mumbo jumbo. the public sector is such a broad range i dont know why they cant look at civil servants, guards, nurses etc seperatly instead of driving them all into the one catagory.

    Im a civil servant 10 years and i now make €492 take home each week. i have a mortgage, a child and a partner out of work. Not exactly raking it in after 10 years in the one job. took me this long to get to this point.

    these mathamaticians seems to be forgetting the cost of living here against other countrys.

    I understand what you're saying Stevo, I am lucky enough to be in a public sector job and I take home €500 a week after 8 years and i'm in a techinal role, in the private sector i know i would be earning more.

    I also have a mortgage and high car insurance, house insurance and all that, why are the private sector so begredugding of the ordnary worker when we're only getting by, the cost of living in this country is still unnacceptable before they go cutting wages, Look at the price of petrol and Diesel, the price per barrel has come down to a fraction of what it was last year but the pumps aren't reflecting that.

    Eamonn Dunphy had it right on frontline last night, massive attitude change needed in the country...


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    #96
    stevoman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭stevoman


    cavedave wrote: »
    This brings up another question. Say you were two people pretending to be single. Your income would be
    205 jobseekers assistance
    93 rent allowance (in Dublin)
    25 fuel allowance, bins, medical card, clothing allowance, (maybe some others)

    So that is about 650 a week if you are two single people. At a take home of about 580 euro a week your partner gets no jobseekers assistance due to the means testing limits.

    So are you better off not working and not being a family? If so is that a bad incentive to have in a society?
    this is it exactly. thats where i =t boils down, as, as a person do you want to get up and go in the morning, or sit at home.


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    #97
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    stevoman wrote: »
    this is it exactly. thats where i =t boils down, as, as a person do you want to get up and go in the morning, or sit at home.

    The incentive seems to be to sit at home.

    Allowances should be all means tested. There are people that we all know of that are riding the system and getting away with it.

    Benefit fraud in the UK is a serious business and you're in big trouble if you're caught.


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    #98
    cavedave
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    stevoman

    this is it exactly. thats where i =t boils down, as, as a person do you want to get up and go in the morning, or sit at home.

    Work does not solely rely on pride and sense of achievement to get people to work. They are an important part of people working. But money is also a very important part. And if it is not in your financial interest to work less people will work.

    This is not an argument for recreating chimney sweep street urchins. I am just asking if there is a financial incentive for a couple with one person unemployed and another on <38k a year to work. If not is something wrong with the social welfare system?


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    #99
    stevoman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭stevoman


    Wiley1 wrote: »
    I understand what you're saying Stevo, I am lucky enough to be in a public sector job and I take home €500 a week after 8 years and i'm in a techinal role, in the private sector i know i would be earning more.

    I also have a mortgage and high car insurance, house insurance and all that, why are the private sector so begredugding of the ordnary worker when we're only getting by, the cost of living in this country is still unnacceptable before they go cutting wages, Look at the price of petrol and Diesel, the price per barrel has come down to a fraction of what it was last year but the pumps aren't reflecting that.

    Eamonn Dunphy had it right on frontline last night, massive attitude change needed in the country...
    i know there are more cuts coming and to be honest i wont even bother with the union this time, i will just leave it as i cant afford to give them 1% every week of it if i take more cuts.

    i understand as much as anyone thats the countrys finances are in dire straits, but this isnt the joe soaps in the public sectors faults, its mismanagent by the goverment. the very people who have the money and have no worrys. for gods sake bertie ahern now has a good side earner writing a sports column for the mirror now.

    the price of living is crazy compared to other countrys in europe, but they will never mention that.

    i honestly think we drastically need a change in goverment so we do. fianna fail have no backbone. they have failed to tackle issues like crime or immigration etc over the years and whenever the are needed to make a desicion the set up an expensive comitee to make recomendations.

    look at berties tribunal for gods sake. all that money and where are the results? the childrens hospital would could have put that money to better use.

    this country is a disgrace and its not the workers in whatever sector who are to blame. its the collective of voters that put these idiots into power time and time again that are to blame and of course the goverment themselves..


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    #100
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Wiley1 wrote: »
    I understand what you're saying Stevo, I am lucky enough to be in a public sector job and I take home €500 a week after 8 years and i'm in a techinal role, in the private sector i know i would be earning more.

    I also have a mortgage and high car insurance, house insurance and all that, why are the private sector so begredugding of the ordnary worker when we're only getting by, the cost of living in this country is still unnacceptable before they go cutting wages, Look at the price of petrol and Diesel, the price per barrel has come down to a fraction of what it was last year but the pumps aren't reflecting that.

    Eamonn Dunphy had it right on frontline last night, massive attitude change needed in the country...


    the cost of living is high because wages and wellfare are high , when the 1st two come down , the third will follow but the cost of living never ever makes the 1st move

    p.s , never met a ps worker who didnt say they would be making more in the private sector , more often than not , its entirely untrue and a union invention


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    #101
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Riskymove wrote: »
    no it isn't

    its borrowing €400m a week to make up the gap between revenue and expenditure

    it is not all going to the public sector wage bill

    Yes you are right, annual expenditure is about 20 billion on Public service pay and 20 bil on social welfare .

    doesn't get away from the fact though that cuts will have to be made and it's either job losses or pay cuts ofor a mixture of both.


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    #102
    Triangle
    Registered Users Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Triangle


    gerry28 wrote: »
    I see this quite often on boards... as if we have to answer to the private sector because thay pay the tax.

    We are a society - I answer to the government and so do you. Wealth generated from taxing the private sector (for the privilage of operating in ths country) is used to pay for essential services.

    We are not an optional extra - we are an integral part of society.

    I can't believe i'm seeing this......

    The government should answer to us as the citizens of this country....... not us to them.

    This is the type of thinkiing that has to change


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    #103
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    irish_bob wrote: »
    the cost of living is high because wages and wellfare are high , when the 1st two come down , the third will follow but the cost of living never ever makes the 1st move

    p.s , never met a ps worker who didnt say they would be making more in the private sector , more often than not , its entirely untrue and a union invention

    Well it's true in my case, The hope is that the cost of living will come down, I am preparing myself for cuts and will have to deal with them but my question is will the cost of living come down?

    Petrol and transport costs need to so that companies with goods to move around the country can lower manufacturing expenditure therefore lowering the prices of goods...

    Common sense injection required in the government, otherwie oust them and put in a few brave desicion making leaders.

    As Stevoman said get some balls and tackle immigration and social welfare and contentious issues but do it with conviction and stop fearing that they'll be ridiculed by the do-gooders...


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    #104
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    irish_bob wrote: »
    the cost of living is high because wages and wellfare are high , when the 1st two come down , the third will follow but the cost of living never ever makes the 1st move

    p.s , never met a ps worker who didnt say they would be making more in the private sector , more often than not , its entirely untrue and a union invention

    Can you provide evidence to back up either of these claims? Particularly the second one, it seems very 'in' to rip on unions on this forum at the minute and evidence is never provided.


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    #105
    Wiley1
    Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Wiley1


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Can you provide evidence to back up either of these claims? Particularly the second one, it seems very 'in' to rip on unions on this forum at the minute and evidence is never provided.


    Touché,

    These kind of posts always state things without the facts to back them up. :)


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    #106
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Can you provide evidence to back up either of these claims? Particularly the second one, it seems very 'in' to rip on unions on this forum at the minute and evidence is never provided.

    I agree proof should be provided to an extent.. but, as per the union bashing... have you heard the socialist waffle that comes from O'Connor?..
    He his doing more harm than good to his members.. and the unions ARE the architects of the us v them problems we now have.

    Also, cost of living will only drop once salaries do..

    Example.. If everyone starts to shop in Lidl... Tesco and Superquinn will lower their prices to compete... the free market..


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    #107
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    asdasd wrote: »
    Most is a bit over the top. I can think of Dell. Plenty of FDI in Ireland has been here for a generation - Apple for more than the existance of the Apple mac, for instance. I really dont see the rush out the door. Facebook is moving in. Amazon and Google are solid ( both European HQ). Dell is the cheap option, by the way, compared to Apple's premium and better quality stuff.

    The recession is not really hitting that stuff very hard, if at all. Our unemplyment increase is from construction, and retail.
    Dell, Gateway (Clonshaugh), IBM Call Centre, IBM Microelectronics division, IBM Storage Systems division, IBM Server Division on the way now as well (all D15), Amdahl Computers (Swords), Motorola (Swords same plant under new ownerhip closed again!), Celestica (same plant under new ownership closed again!), Seagate (Clonmel and also Derry FWIW), NEC (Balivor), Xerox (Dundalk), Fujitsu (Tallaght AND D15), Lucent (either Sandyford or D15, not sure which plant, maybe both by now), Digital Equipment Corporation (Galway), Northern Telecom (Shannon)........and these are just the total big firm closures that pop into my head. I can list a host of smaller electronics firms that are gone from Ireland's shores. I don't know much about pharma but believe that cutbacks have been made in many Cork pharma plants.

    There have been job cuts at HP too and the site never fulfilled the promised jobs delivery (like IBM). Lots of contractors in Intel being let go as we speak. Apple struggles on but it's only a matter of time if Irish people continue to expect to receive high salaries for low end assembly work.

    Anyone who works in electronics knows that ireland has been hemmoraging jobs in that sector for the last decade or so. That's the truth of the matter.


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    #108
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    The cost of Living could do without NAMA, but maybe that is for another thread. I would allow banks to go bust, create a State owned bank, and change the laws on bankruptcy to last one year. this will collapse property even more, but allow most people a way out.

    Economic theory suggests that people should always walk away from negative equity to rent if they can hand in their keys. Certainly the people at the bottom could do that.

    If the government then owns these debts - buying them at their resale value ( close to zero I imagine) it can rent bank the houses to the bakrupts for a nominal fee for a year, or two, and then let market forces dictate the rent.

    This will destroy the BTL market, and be bad for people not now in negative equity ( but should we care?). After that clears we can become a low cost economy again, as gross wages could fall and net pay accelerate.


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    #109
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    icroelectronics division, IBM Storage Systems division, IBM Server Division on the way now as well (all D15), Amdahl Computers (Swords), Motorola (Swords same plant under new ownerhip closed again!), Celestica (same plant under new ownership closed again!), Seagate (Clonmel and also Derry FWIW), NEC (Balivor), Xerox (Dundalk), Fujitsu (Tallaght AND D15), Lucent (either Sandyford or D15, not sure which plant, maybe both by now), Digital Equipment Corporation (Galway), Northern Telecom (Shannon)........and these are just the total big firm closures that pop into my head. I can list a host of smaller electronics firms that are gone from Ireland's shores. I don't know much about pharma but believe that cutbacks have been made in many Cork pharma plants.

    Thats about 25 years worth of lay-offs, alot of it because the companies themselves were in trouble, but good googling.

    They dont do assemly work in Apple by the way. Thats my point., We already moved up the price ladder.


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    #110
    Dublin Hibby
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭Dublin Hibby


    As long as you have the calibre of individuals that are currently responsible for running the country, there will be no effective solution.

    My auld da used to say, if you do what you did, then you will get what you got.

    Cowan and the rest of the muppet cast are in fact responsible for running the biggest organisation in the country. They are not capable of steering it through the ongoing fiscal storm. Their partners "the green party" received an incredibly small percentage of the vote, but they are now in part repsonsible for navigating our way out of this mess. What an F,n joke of a system

    A major attitudinal shift is needed in relation to who is responsible for what. Accountability needs to be the order of the day, not blaming.

    People who know how to run a major company should be running the country, our politicians are an absolute disgrace, they would have trouble organising a riot. (they may have a few to deal with soon enough)

    I work in the public sector, three years ago i mentioned to my boss that i believed the constant increase in public sector pay was not sustainable over a long term period. This was pre the colapse of world finances.

    I earn a very good salary, i work hard for it. But i honestly believe i am overpaid. However, the muppets encouraged us all to accrue debt on a scale beffiting our inflated wages, catch 22. We need the high wages to keep our houses.


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    #111
    gerry28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 438 ✭✭gerry28


    I can't believe i'm seeing this......

    The government should answer to us as the citizens of this country....... not us to them.

    This is the type of thinkiing that has to change

    By government i meant the state i.e obey the law, people pay their taxes to the revenue an so on. - I work for the goverment.

    Of course the government answer to the people.


    I think stevoman's situation is a good example of what many public servants are experiencing.

    If his wages are cut by 25% then he'd be earning 369 per week. If he was unemployed he would get 358 from the social welfare and then rent allowance of 93, a medical card, fuel allowance etc.

    Who would seriously suggest his wages should be slashed.


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    #112
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    gerry28 wrote: »
    By government i meant the state i.e obey the law, people pay their taxes to the revenue an so on. - I work for the goverment.

    Of course the government answer to the people.


    I think stevoman's situation is a good example of what many public servants are experiencing.

    If his wages are cut by 25% then he'd be earning 369 per week. If he was unemployed he would get 358 from the social welfare and then rent allowance of 93, a medical card, fuel allowance etc.

    Who would seriously suggest his wages should be slashed.

    Stevoman's situation points out the 2 main issues.
    1. He can't afford to take another income hit
    2. Welfare payments are FAR too high here.

    However, how come it is only now that all of the (extremely) low earning public sector employees are speaking up? Where were they previously... before social partnership/benchmarking?... on the bread line?
    There only appears to be salt-of-the-earth, hard-working, underpaid PS workers on this board... where are the high earners that do no work?.. surely they should have time to post on here?


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    #113
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    asdasd wrote: »
    Thats about 25 years worth of lay-offs, alot of it because the companies themselves were in trouble, but good googling.

    They dont do assemly work in Apple by the way. Thats my point., We already moved up the price ladder.
    I didn't google a single one-I know this sector. I worked for IBM for 8 years and saw a lot of those jobs go myself in that time. The firm I worked for before IBM was bought over by General Electric after I left and has also ceased manufacturing in Ireland. I know lads who were let go from a lot of those plants. The only one I didn't know someone on was Northern Telecom-I even knew lads from Amdahl!

    Contrary to what you said, most of those jobs have been lost since around 1995. The vast bulk in fact have been lost in the 2000s. Amdahl and DEC being the exceptions. The firms may have been in trouble-which is why a lot of them left for cheaper options to cut costs. Of those I listed, only Amdahl, Nortel and DEC are actually defunct remember-the rest still carry on outside Ireland.

    If you want to keep your head in the sand with respect to the dwindling of jobs in the Irish FDI sector then go ahead, I can't stop you. Even high end electronics design jobs (which are few and far between in Ireland depite the hype, maybe Intel in Shannon/Parthus Ceva and Xilinx design chips there and that's it) have seen cutbacks-my mate was made redundant in 2005 and could never find the same job in ireland again-he had to move to the UK to use his particular design skill which was and is in demand there (because they foster high end design stuff and have for a long time).


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    #114
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    murphaph wrote: »
    I didn't google a single one-I know this sector. I worked for IBM for 8 years and saw a lot of those jobs go myself in that time. The firm I worked for before IBM was bought over by General Electric after I left and has also ceased manufacturing in Ireland. I know lads who were let go from a lot of those plants. The only one I didn't know someone on was Northern Telecom-I even knew lads from Amdahl!

    Contrary to what you said, most of those jobs have been lost since around 1995. The vast bulk in fact have been lost in the 2000s. Amdahl and DEC being the exceptions. The firms may have been in trouble-which is why a lot of them left for cheaper options to cut costs. Of those I listed, only Amdahl, Nortel and DEC are actually defunct remember-the rest still carry on outside Ireland.

    If you want to keep your head in the sand with respect to the dwindling of jobs in the Irish FDI sector then go ahead, I can't stop you. Even high end electronics design jobs (which are few and far between in Ireland depite the hype, maybe Intel in Shannon/Parthus Ceva and Xilinx design chips there and that's it) have seen cutbacks-my mate was made redundant in 2005 and could never find the same job in ireland again-he had to move to the UK to use his particular design skill which was and is in demand there (because they foster high end design stuff and have for a long time).

    Murphaph... you should know by now that facts and more importantly, rationality... do not sink in here. They can't hear you... they won't hear you!

    They are alright Jack!


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    #115
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Murphaph... you should know by now that facts and more importantly, rationality... do not sink in here. They can't hear you... they won't hear you!

    Um, wrong again. This subtopic is about whether Ireland is moving up the value chain or not. to do that, like silicon valley we would be moving from low end manufacturing to higher end business services, software etc. Murpaph produced FDI which has left since 1985(ish) ( DEC not being on amyone's list of prime movers in the computer space since the original PC took off). Meanwhile coming in in the same period we have Google, Ebay, Amazon, Facebook etc. So my original point - that the growth in unemployment has little to do with FDI shedding jobs - remains.

    The bust is good for FDI. We can now be cheaper given that the housing is not astronmical. Although I'd prefer NAMA was replaced with something else.


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    #116
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    optocynic wrote: »
    how come it is only now that all of the (extremely) low earning public sector employees are speaking up? Where were they previously... before social partnership/benchmarking?... on the bread line?
    There only appears to be salt-of-the-earth, hard-working, underpaid PS workers on this board... where are the high earners that do no work?.. surely they should have time to post on here?


    Good questions. I wonder too. Given the average p.s. wage og 966 per week, how come only the below average p.s. workers seem to complain ? And what about those retired p.s. workers who retired on one and a half years tax free and a 50% pension ? Retiring public servants must be higher paid than the average public servants ( because of age , promotion etc ) so why do those on say more than 75k a year pension not come on boards.ie and admit their pensions are (a) higher than necessary and (b) sucking the exchequer dry ?


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    #117
    gdael
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭gdael


    optocynic wrote: »
    I agree proof should be provided to an extent.. but, as per the union bashing... have you heard the socialist waffle that comes from O'Connor?..
    He his doing more harm than good to his members.. and the unions ARE the architects of the us v them problems we now have.

    Also, cost of living will only drop once salaries do..

    Example.. If everyone starts to shop in Lidl... Tesco and Superquinn will lower their prices to compete... the free market..

    Somone in another thread gave links to the CSO figure to Irish_Bob, but since they said the opposite to what he was saying he ignored them. I cant for the life of me remember where it was though.

    But i would start here to get the figures yourself.

    http://www.cso.ie/statistics/earnings.htm

    I recall another thread about "the public sector should strike after the pension levy, or they would be walked on again". Well, i suppose they didnt, so now they will be walked on again, and again.

    A 1 week strike by the entire public sector would probably make people sit up and take notice. The public sector seem to be the gimps at the moment though, and everyone in the private sector seems to think they contribute nothing to the country at all.

    Good luck to you all taking another one for Ireland :)


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    #118
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    gdael wrote: »
    Somone in another thread gave links to the CSO figure to Irish_Bob, but since they said the opposite to what he was saying he ignored them. I cant for the life of me remember where it was though.

    But i would start here to get the figures yourself.

    http://www.cso.ie/statistics/earnings.htm

    I recall another thread about "the public sector should strike after the pension levy, or they would be walked on again". Well, i suppose they didnt, so now they will be walked on again, and again.

    A 1 week strike by the entire public sector would probably make people sit up and take notice. They seem to be the gimps at the moment though.

    Good luck to you all taking another one for Ireland :)

    Since a strike simply means down tools... a one week strike would not have the dreaded impact that SIPTU hope. All it would really achieve is show us how little we actually need such a bloated Public sector.. and would irrepairably damage our image to the outside world... painting us as petulant malcontents...

    No one wants to see see people suffer... but as long as you have self-serving mouthpieces like O'Connor in your corner.. the rest of us will not want to support you!


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    #119
    gdael
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭gdael


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Good questions. I wonder too. Given the average p.s. wage og 966 per week, how come only the below average p.s. workers seem to complain ? And what about those retired p.s. workers who retired on one and a half years tax free and a 50% pension ? Retiring public servants must be higher paid than the average public servants ( because of age , promotion etc ) so why do those on say more than 75k a year pension not come on boards.ie and admit their pensions are (a) higher than necessary and (b) sucking the exchequer dry ?

    You also only see the low waged private sector workers complaining about the public sector. If you cant earn the money, beat down on others until they earn less than you seems to be the way it goes.

    I think if everyone here was honest and published their salaries and pensions we'd find that all the complainers in the private sector are relatively low skilled and so are on relatively low wages. The rest of the private sector arent really bothered, because they have earning power and are earning well about those in the public sector.


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    #120
    gdael
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭gdael


    optocynic wrote: »
    Since a strike simply means down tools... a one week strike would not have the dreaded impact that SIPTU hope. All it would really achieve is show us how little we actually need such a bloated Public sector.. and would irrepairably damage our image to the outside world... painting us as petulant malcontents...

    No one wants to see see people suffer... but as long as you have self-serving mouthpieces like O'Connor in your corner.. the rest of us will not want to support you!


    If there were no public sector workers (apart from those not allowed to strike) working for a week, lets see what happens. I think we'll be hurting a lot more than you think. Think about it.


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    #121
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    gdael wrote: »
    You also only see the low waged private sector workers complaining about the public sector. If you cant earn the money, beat down on others until they earn less than you seems to be the way it goes.

    Not true... according to the champagne socialists (Brown, O'Connor etc.) I am rich.. I know, I laughted too.
    gdael wrote: »
    I think if everyone here was honest and published their salaries and pensions we'd find that all the complainers in the private sector are relatively low skilled and so are on relatively low wages. The rest of the private sector arent really bothered, because they have earning power and are earning well about those in the public sector.

    I published my salary and bonus here before. I have a masters degree.
    I begrudge paying income tax for which I see no benefits at all. I work HARD... a notion lost on the unions!


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