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Public sector pay: the wrong debate

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12357…34

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    #122
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    gdael wrote: »
    If there were no public sector workers (apart from those not allowed to strike) working for a week, lets see what happens. I think we'll be hurting a lot more than you think. Think about it.

    I have thought about it...

    Give me an example... how would one week hurt us?


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    #123
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    asdasd wrote: »
    Um, wrong again. This subtopic is about whether Ireland is moving up the value chain or not. to do that, like silicon valley we would be moving from low end manufacturing to higher end business services, software etc. Murpaph produced FDI which has left since 1985(ish) ( DEC not being on amyone's list of prime movers in the computer space since the original PC took off).
    DEC (along with Amdahl) was an early exception. Pick holes in the rest of my list....all jobs lost since 1997 or thereabouts. Oh and DEC made the VAX which was incredibly popular long after DEC quit Ireland. Many VAX machines are still in use today (we used them in IBM). Silicon Valley still produces chips, and lots of them! Silicon Valley is different because it is indiginous industry. Ireland has no such thing-I can count 3 offices in Ireland where microchips are designed. Hardly Silicon bleedin' Valley is it? Ireland has missed the boat-should have been developing university incubators 20 years ago.
    asdasd wrote: »
    Meanwhile coming in in the same period we have Google, Ebay, Amazon, Facebook etc.
    A lot of what they do is now being offshored to India as well mate. Any large scale software projects in the financial sector are nowadays coded primarily in India with only the top level stuff done in the first world.
    asdasd wrote: »
    So my original point - that the growth in unemployment has little to do with FDI shedding jobs - remains.
    It's a nonsensical position to take if you ask me as someone whose experienced the change first hand. The jobs that have come in (and can just as easily flow out to India again) are nowhere near as numerous as the jobs lost in irish manufacturing (including high tech manufacturing) over the last 10/15 years. Ireland has been losing competitiveness and NOT FOSTERING indiginous high tech start ups for years now. These policies are coming home to roost.


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    #124
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    gdael wrote: »
    I think if everyone here was honest and published their salaries and pensions we'd find that all the complainers in the private sector are relatively low skilled and so are on relatively low wages. The rest of the private sector arent really bothered, because they have earning power and are earning well about those in the public sector.
    Not true. There is a great and gathering groundswell of opinion ( from people of all backgrounds ) that the public sector is overpaid and that much of the 400 million per week the country is borrowing is going towards paying for public expenditure such as that. Its not just the "relatively low skilled" as you call it....I recall many conversations with those I have had from professional backgrounds about the public sector....they are all too well aware of the waste of govt expenditure on p.s. salaries and pensions. Some in the p.s. admit it themselves too....all they have to do is look at their colleagues salaries in other countries better off than ourselves.


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    #125
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Wiley1 wrote: »
    Well it's true in my case, The hope is that the cost of living will come down, I am preparing myself for cuts and will have to deal with them but my question is will the cost of living come down?

    Petrol and transport costs need to so that companies with goods to move around the country can lower manufacturing expenditure therefore lowering the prices of goods...

    Common sense injection required in the government, otherwie oust them and put in a few brave desicion making leaders.

    As Stevoman said get some balls and tackle immigration and social welfare and contentious issues but do it with conviction and stop fearing that they'll be ridiculed by the do-gooders...

    fuel is high due to excessive goverment levys , transport is expensive due to state monopolies and union interferance which results in state bus drivers in dublin earning more than in london or new york , as has often been said , while the costs in the private sector have done down , state costs have risen of late


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    #126
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    gdael wrote: »
    You also only see the low waged private sector workers complaining about the public sector. If you cant earn the money, beat down on others until they earn less than you seems to be the way it goes.

    I think if everyone here was honest and published their salaries and pensions we'd find that all the complainers in the private sector are relatively low skilled and so are on relatively low wages. The rest of the private sector arent really bothered, because they have earning power and are earning well about those in the public sector.

    wages for those who work in the private sector are set based on what the worker can deliver for his or her employee , wages for those who work in the ps are set based on what kind of a deal the unions can extract out of politicians


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    #127
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Is there any other country in the world where those who take the risks, work longer hours, no big state guaranteed pension etc are paid so much less than those in the public sector ? In most countries, the public sector is paid slightly less than the equivalent private sector.


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    #128
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Is there any other country in the world where those who take the risks, work longer hours, no big state guaranteed pension etc are paid so much less than those in the public sector ? In most countries, the public sector is paid slightly less than the equivalent private sector.

    While I wouldn't be as capitalist as you Jimmmy... I would recall the thing Bono (lof all people) once said about irish mentality.

    'An American sees a rich mans house on a hill, and says "I want to be him"... the Irish say "I want to get him!"...'

    We are a nation of childish begrudgers on a whole. The sure way to be hated, is to succeed!


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    #129
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Is there any other country in the world where those who take the risks, work longer hours, no big state guaranteed pension etc are paid so much less than those in the public sector ? In most countries, the public sector is paid slightly less than the equivalent private sector.

    jimmmy,

    congrats, your rethoric continues to amuse

    In my opinion, I think that people who really take risks in the private sector have the chance to gain a lot more than the average public worker


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    #130
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »

    In my opinion, I think that people who really take risks in the private sector have the chance to gain a lot more than the average public worker

    in your opinion ....who really take.....have the chance etc

    You have not answered the question. Is there any other country in the world where those who take the risks, work longer hours, no big state guaranteed pension etc are paid so much less than those in the public sector ?


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    #131
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    jimmmy wrote: »
    in your opinion ....who really take.....have the chance etc

    You have not answered the question. Is there any other country in the world where those who take the risks, work longer hours, no big state guaranteed pension etc are paid so much less than those in the public sector ?

    No, there isn't Jimmmy. But focus on the cause of this situation. Grabbing, hypocrytical union leaders, totally devoid of integrity... and a feckless government under Bertie that were scared sh!tless of the champagne socialists in SIPTU!...

    The Public Sector workers are not to blame... their obtuse and selfish unions are... but, the workers will have to pay the price for the greed shown by their unions during the boom and reign of cowards under Bertie!


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    #132
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    optocynic wrote: »
    While I wouldn't be as capitalist as you Jimmmy... I would recall the thing Bono (lof all people) once said about irish mentality.

    'An American sees a rich mans house on a hill, and says "I want to be him"... the Irish say "I want to get him!"...'

    We are a nation of childish begrudgers on a whole. The sure way to be hated, is to succeed!

    Who said I was a capitalist, just because I think the public sector in this country is overpaid ? I agree with you though about the Irish + American mentality ...the American will make his fortune by setting up a business and working hard...and cannot understand how a little country like Ireland can pay its prime minister more than Obama, its central bank head more than the head of the US federal reserve, and all the way down.


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    #133
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Who said I was a capitalist, just because I think the public sector in this country is overpaid ? I agree with you though about the Irish + American mentality ...the American will make his fortune by setting up a business and working hard...and cannot understand how a little country like Ireland can pay its prime minister more than Obama, its central bank head more than the head of the US federal reserve, and all the way down.

    Indeed... we are all suckers here.
    When you are in charge of your own salary.. and your gombeen cronies salaries... what do you think will happen?
    I'm guessing integrity will not win out!!


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    #134
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    optocynic wrote: »
    The Public Sector workers are not to blame... their obtuse and selfish unions are...

    A union is a collection of the workers. If it is to blame, how does that not extend to the workers?

    Sure...one can blame the leaders of the unions...but those leaders are selected by the workers.

    Where does the buck stop?
    but, the workers will have to pay the price for the greed shown by their unions during the boom and reign of cowards under Bertie!

    The workers reaped the rewards for the greed shown by their unions in the first place. Maybe I didn't pay close enough attention, but I didn't hear them complain at the time.


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    #135
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    bonkey wrote: »
    A union is a collection of the workers. If it is to blame, how does that not extend to the workers?

    Sure...one can blame the leaders of the unions...but those leaders are selected by the workers.

    Where does the buck stop?



    The workers reaped the rewards for the greed shown by their unions in the first place. Maybe I didn't pay close enough attention, but I didn't hear them complain at the time.

    But we can sure as heck-fire hear them complaining now!!

    And you are right, I meant the union bosses. They are to blame in my opinion.


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    #136
    aftermn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭aftermn


    just a couple of points ;

    1) If I get pissed drunk, jump in my car and kill someone on the way home, it is my fault, not the fault of the policeman or the barman or anyone else. Bankers, developers etc. please note.

    2) Public service workers also pay income tax etc., or am I mis-informed. Thus, if we are to believe what we read here about ps workers being better paid, then they are paying more tax than their private sector equivalents.

    3) Slagging each other off will not fix anything. We went through a boom. Initially the private sector was the place to be, it reacted quicker and wages/profits rose. The public sector saw what was happening and wanted a slice of the action, benchmarking. The cute whore worked in the private sector until about '06 and then got into the public sector. Unfortunately I did it the other way round.


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    #137
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    aftermn wrote: »
    just a couple of points ;

    1) If I get pissed drunk, jump in my car and kill someone on the way home, it is my fault, not the fault of the policeman or the barman or anyone else. Bankers, developers etc. please note.

    actually, based on current moaning, it'd be the guards fault for not stopping you
    2) Public service workers also pay income tax etc., or am I mis-informed. Thus, if we are to believe what we read here about ps workers being better paid, then they are paying more tax than their private sector equivalents.

    this argument goes on a lot

    yes we pay tax but our gross pay all comes out of govt expenditure so really we dont contribute to tax returns
    3) Slagging each other off will not fix anything
    .

    agreed, the sad par tof all this really


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    #138
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Riskymove wrote: »
    actually, based on current moaning, it'd be the guards fault for not stopping you



    this argument goes on a lot

    yes we pay tax but our gross pay all comes out of govt expenditure so really we dont contribute to tax returns

    .

    agreed, the sad par tof all this really

    I agree.. the slagging is starting to bore me now..
    But, the bottom line is... Public Sector wages need to be tackled.
    Call it what you want.. benchmarking again?..
    We simply can't afford it.

    You should also get O'Connor to stop spitting bile and fire in your name.. he is really pissing the rest of the country off with his champagne socialist rubbish, and adding petrol to the Public Vs Private inferno!


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    #139
    eoinbn
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭eoinbn


    Public vs private pay is really irrelevant. It's comes down to what the government can afford to pay and it certainly cannot continue to spend 2/3 of the total taxation on PS pay.


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    #140
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    optocynic wrote: »
    You should also get O'Connor to stop spitting bile and fire in your name.. he is really pissing the rest of the country off with his champagne socialist rubbish, and adding petrol to the Public Vs Private inferno!

    the rest of the country?

    i think you'll find he is pissing off many of us too

    unfortunately there is little I can do about it, it requires the will of the members of the larger unions to do that


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    #141
    aftermn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭aftermn


    On a macro level you may be correct.

    From a personal perspective, the deduction looks very similar


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    #142
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    And these bearded twats (union leaders invariably sport a 1970's style of facial hair) are only in there stirring up the sh!t with their PS members because they want to protect their OWN priviliged position (good salary, fancy Merc etc.). They are playing a game with the nation just for their own egos.


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    #143
    Ms Happy
    Registered Users Posts: 727 ✭✭✭Ms Happy


    I'm a public Sector worker, on less that 440 per week, not permanent paying a pension levy etc. etc.
    Do the public sector "bashers" out there think that's too much?? I agree that some in the public sector are paid way too much but don't tar us all with the same brush.


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    #144
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Ms Happy wrote: »
    I'm a public Sector worker, on less that 440 per week, not permanent paying a pension levy etc. etc.
    Do the public sector "bashers" out there think that's too much?? I agree that some in the public sector are paid way too much but don't tar us all with the same brush.

    You shoulld read all the posts. We don't think you should be hit hard at all.
    Is the 440 before or after deductions?


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    #145
    Tester46
    Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Tester46


    potlatch wrote: »
    People working in the private sector shouldn't be complaining about public sector workers. They should be complaining about employers' refusal to provide the same good pay, job security and employment conditions in the private sector as those in the public sector.

    It's that kind of "logic" which has us in this mess. Bear in mind that ESRI report said that the public sector workers earn 25% more than their private sector equivalents and

    1. that's only up to end-2006 and so doesn't include the 25%+ pay cuts many private sector workers have had in the last 18 months.

    2. it only allocates 3% for that sweet sweet sweet public sector pension most private sector workers can only fantasise about in their most deluded moments.

    3. it doesn't allocate anything for the fact of public sector job security - private sectors workers who go to bed at night sweating about whether they will have a job in the morning will know job security is valuable.

    In any event, how can you seriously suggest that the way forward for this country is to increase costs when in order to attract investment and employers we need to lower costs? I'll take the same leap as the 2nd poster and assume you are maybe, just maybe, a public servant?


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    #146
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Not true. There is a great and gathering groundswell of opinion ( from people of all backgrounds ) that the public sector is overpaid and that much of the 400 million per week the country is borrowing is going towards paying for public expenditure such as that. Its not just the "relatively low skilled" as you call it....I recall many conversations with those I have had from professional backgrounds about the public sector....they are all too well aware of the waste of govt expenditure on p.s. salaries and pensions. Some in the p.s. admit it themselves too....all they have to do is look at their colleagues salaries in other countries better off than ourselves.

    In all seriousness Jimmmy, you're posts are nearly always based on meeting people who live across the border and who somehow decide to compare their qualifications and wages.

    You really can't expect to be taken too seriously when your arguments revolve anecdotally around people you met in the pub.
    optocynic wrote: »
    And you are right, I meant the union bosses. They are to blame in my opinion.

    The union bosses can't just strike whenever they feel like it; there needs to be a vote within the union before action can take place.


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    #147
    Tester46
    Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Tester46


    Plus, it seems to be a favourite cry of the union leaders to say that public and private sector workers should stick together - it's "those bastards at the top" (or those bankers, or those developers, or whoever) who are to blame, etc etc.

    Don't public sector worker understand this is not an issue of blame? When times were good we all earned more money - fair enough. Now times are bad, the private sector has taken a hit, but the public sector doesn't want to.

    This is down to simple maths - the Irish State cannot no longer afford the public sector pay bill - it simply has to be reduced. It's maths, not blame. No one is saying the public sector caused this mess. But they are contributing to the perpetuation of it and the downward spiral by stubbornly refusing to accept pay reductions. Cop on.


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    #148
    Tester46
    Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Tester46


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    In all seriousness Jimmmy, you're posts are nearly always based on meeting people who live across the border and who somehow decide to compare their qualifications and wages.

    You really can't expect to be taken too seriously when your arguments revolve anecdotally around people you met in the pub.


    He can if they are supported by figures from the Department of Finance and freely available information from our European neighbours...;)


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    #149
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Tester46 wrote: »
    He can if they are supported by figures from the Department of Finance and freely available information from our European neighbours...;)

    I have yet to see him do so;

    I have however, seen posts going along the lines of "I know two people who went to college together, got the same marks and the same degree etc etc, one went to work in the North, one went to work in the Republic and the Irish employee earns twice as much"


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    #150
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    kickoutthejams wrote: »

    The union bosses can't just strike whenever they feel like it; there needs to be a vote within the union before action can take place.

    seen any public sector strikes lately?


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    #151
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Riskymove wrote: »
    seen any public sector strikes lately?
    I'm out of the country now but I remember a fair few strikes a few months ago (CPSU, teachers etc)

    Your point anyway?


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