Public sector pay: the wrong debate

Overheal

asdasd wrote: »

Most is a bit over the top. I can think of Dell. Plenty of FDI in Ireland has been here for a generation - Apple for more than the existance of the Apple mac, for instance. I really dont see the rush out the door. Facebook is moving in. Amazon and Google are solid ( both European HQ). Dell is the cheap option, by the way, compared to Apple's premium and better quality stuff.

The recession is not really hitting that stuff very hard, if at all. Our unemplyment increase is from construction, and retail.

But you don't acknowledge the risks of over-investing your economy in FDI. Hell Jamesie taught me that much. Their earnings are all repatriated for a start. No loyalty to you either. Evidenced by recession, they could leave tomorrow and you'd be boned.

You had a good thing going with the DeLorean though. We'll never forget :pac:

Look the big problem for Ireland, Economically, is this huge Hemorrhaging stream of cash. You're exporting ****all besides a bit of FDI labor and corporate taxes and a slice of tourism. Thats still offset by all the money those FDIs earn here and send away to elsewhere.

And dont get me started on the Dole thing or I'll burst an artery. That whole system is systematically sterilizing that workforce you need.

as for FDI according to Murph',

murphaph wrote: »

Dell, Gateway (Clonshaugh), IBM Call Centre, IBM Microelectronics division, IBM Storage Systems division, IBM Server Division on the way now as well (all D15), Amdahl Computers (Swords), Motorola (Swords same plant under new ownerhip closed again!), Celestica (same plant under new ownership closed again!), Seagate (Clonmel and also Derry FWIW), NEC (Balivor), Xerox (Dundalk), Fujitsu (Tallaght AND D15), Lucent (either Sandyford or D15, not sure which plant, maybe both by now), Digital Equipment Corporation (Galway), Northern Telecom (Shannon)........and these are just the total big firm closures that pop into my head. I can list a host of smaller electronics firms that are gone from Ireland's shores. I don't know much about pharma but believe that cutbacks have been made in many Cork pharma plants.

There have been job cuts at HP too and the site never fulfilled the promised jobs delivery (like IBM). Lots of contractors in Intel being let go as we speak. Apple struggles on but it's only a matter of time if Irish people continue to expect to receive high salaries for low end assembly work.

Anyone who works in electronics knows that ireland has been hemmoraging jobs in that sector for the last decade or so. That's the truth of the matter.

...are you really sure FDI is as safe as you think?

gerry28 wrote:

I see this quite often on boards... as if we have to answer to the private sector because thay pay the tax.

We are a society - I answer to the government and so do you. Wealth generated from taxing the private sector (for the privilage of operating in ths country) is used to pay for essential services.

We are not an optional extra - we are an integral part of society.

You're quite serious, aren't you? You should all just Bow at Bertie's feet should you?

Quick reminder there Comerade-Gerry28: Democratic Governments are run By the People, For the people.

jimmmy wrote: »

Is there any other country in the world where those who take the risks, work longer hours, no big state guaranteed pension etc are paid so much less than those in the public sector ? In most countries, the public sector is paid slightly less than the equivalent private sector.

Thats about right. American workers dont get nearly as many benefits as their european counterparts. As for unions, evidenced by detroit, they are as fallible as anything. Too many benefits and not enough profitability. It's America's Colon for a reason. But as a side note you cant just blame government or just blame unions or just blame companies. Theyre all to blame in varying degrees and for different reasons. There is no perfect solution except to say that when one towers over the others, the tripod falls over. Ireland needs its balance back and frankly theres **** on every doorstep: companies crashing, public sector chaos and union strikes; which are also public-sector paid.

So you either need to promote private business or demote the public sector to restore order. And think quickly about it. My money is on trimming the public sector, which cant sustain itself and is borrowing hundreds of millions of euro to keep itself afloat.

gerry28

Quick reminder there Comerade-Gerry28: Democratic Governments are run By the People, For the people.

Overheal, take a quick glance back a few posts and you will see I clarified what in meant.

irish_bob

optocynic wrote: »

I agree.. the slagging is starting to bore me now..
But, the bottom line is... Public Sector wages need to be tackled.
Call it what you want.. benchmarking again?..
We simply can't afford it.

You should also get O'Connor to stop spitting bile and fire in your name.. he is really pissing the rest of the country off with his champagne socialist rubbish, and adding petrol to the Public Vs Private inferno!

jack o connor is not a champagne socilist in any sense of the word , he is an old fashioned hard left marxist , david begg is a champagne socilist alright , fintan o toole is a chapagne socilist , so too vincent browne and of course mary robinson

murphaph

irish_bob wrote: »

jack o connor is not a champagne socilist in any sense of the word , he is an old fashioned hard left marxist , david begg is a champagne socilist alright , fintan o toole is a chapagne socilist , so too vincent browne and of course mary robinson

Out of curiosity...what is Jack O'Connor's salary and what sort of car does he get?

asdasd

Out of curiosity...what is Jack O'Connor's salary and what sort of car does he get?

I dont see any reference to Marxism in any biography of the man so what does it matter? He can consistently be a strong trade unionist asking for more money for workers ( which is not the same as egalitarianism) and have a decent car.

murphaph

asdasd wrote: »

I dont see any reference to Marxism in any biography of the man so what does it matter? He can consistently be a strong trade unionist asking for more money for workers ( which is not the same as egalitarianism) and have a decent car.

My point is simple: If Mr. O'Connor receives a very handsome salary and flash motor for being a union rep, then perhaps that is what motivates him more than the conditions of his union's members. This can easily lead to a situation where unions reps fight battles they can't/shouldn't win just to appeae members in an effort to keep the membership subs coming in (and thereby support that flash car and top salary).

It's the same for TDs who are (IMO) more motivated by money than by representing the rest of us.

Riskymove

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'm out of the country now but I remember a fair few strikes a few months ago (CPSU, teachers etc)

Your point anyway?

my point is that most union members are voting not to strike

the CPSU held some protests, the exception that has proved the rule so far

teachers strike?? not so sure

brianthebard

optocynic wrote: »

I agree proof should be provided to an extent.. but, as per the union bashing... have you heard the socialist waffle that comes from O'Connor?..
He his doing more harm than good to his members.. and the unions ARE the architects of the us v them problems we now have.

No YOU are the architect of this 'us versus them' problem, because YOU have been posting comments at every available point that bash unions, as per the above quote. proof to an extent-what nonsense.

It seems to me the height of stupidity that when the economy starts to break down it is the people and organisations who wish to protect workers rights that are scapegoated and denigrated and decried as detrimental to our very existence. It wasn't the unions that created a property bubble or told the banks to give out loans that they shouldn't have. But now that we are faced with a meltdown because of those policies, it is the unions which are seen as the bad guy for consistently holding the same position, that is the work for the benefit of the workers (the vast majority of the population of this country) and to act to prevent damaging their livlihoods and standard of living.

I firmly believe that if things had been run more along union principles (ie to only engage in policies which were not damaging to workers standards of living) instead of the policies which failed for the government and the finance sector, that this country would not be in the situation that it is now.

axer

murphaph wrote: »

If you took the East away Germany would have a healthy unemployment rate and remember before the current worldwide crisis, Germany's economy was rebounding and unemployment (even in the east) was falling. These measures of hardcore cuts in social welfare spending are a relatively recent invention and are controversial (google Harz IV) but they were having an impact.

As the old east Germans will tell you, there was no unemployment until the wall came down and then those wessis came over to take our raw materials.

People have to understand that firstly this country is spending way too much. In Ireland one can earn more on the Dole than working a minimum wage job. The public sector is a massive drain on our spending.

To the OP: Do you really think we need to increase wages even higher in this country? What do you think that will do to our competitiveness?

Soldie

brianthebard wrote: »

It wasn't the unions that created a property bubble or told the banks to give out loans that they shouldn't have.

Be that as it may, unions were happy to seek pay rises for their members, and this was funded by the unprecedented tax revenues collected during boom times. Now that tax revenues have plummeted, though, the unions do not want to relinquish their gains, and it is just rubbing salt into the open wound that is our economy.

it is the unions which are seen as the bad guy for consistently holding the same position

That "same position" is just being myopic - they don't care about the bigger picture at all, they only care about their own members. Just look at all the protests, although admitedly it's not just exclusive to unions - "Don't cut child allowance!", "Don't cut the dole!", "Don't make cuts in education!" etc. ad infinitum. They all want someone else to shoulder the burden.

brianthebard

Soldie wrote: »

Be that as it may, unions were happy to seek pay rises for their members, and this was funded by the unprecedented tax revenues collected during boom times. Now that tax revenues have plummeted, though, the unions do not want to relinquish their gains, and it is just rubbing salt into the open wound that is our economy.

Not all unions are paid with tax revenues. As the OP pointed out all those pages ago this is the wrong debate that you are following. Of course unions sought to improve living conditions for their members, and it is their duty to prevent those conditions being diminished. The point is that whether that boom had happened or not these unions principles would have been the same. Unions are not responsible for this broken economy. Unions should not be blamed for this broken economy.

That "same position" is just being myopic - they don't care about the bigger picture at all, they only care about their own members. Just look at all the protests, although admitedly it's not just exclusive to unions - "Don't cut child allowance!", "Don't cut the dole!", "Don't make cuts in education!" etc. ad infinitum. They all want someone else to shoulder the burden.

Its not myopic, its an ideological position, something you don't always see in Irish politics. Its not that they don't care about the bigger picture that's silly. There are people here- and it appears you are one- who feel that once the economy is in trouble all bets are off and there is nothing that cannot be cut in a savage rush to balance the budget. There are others who believe moral ethical and ideological principles should not be sold off in that rush. Unions I believe are part of the latter camp. They do not stop representing their members when times are hard. They continue to fight for workers rights, all workers rights even non members, for the improvement of society, not so that the 'good times' can come again as the government hopes.

axer

brianthebard wrote: »

Unions were not responsible for this broken economy. Unions should not be blamed for this broken economy.

Everyone is to blame for this broken economy - that includes unions pushing for unsustainable higher wages which drove up inflation amongst other things.

brianthebard

axer wrote: »

Everyone is to blame for this broken economy - that includes unions pushing for unsustainable higher wages which drove up inflation amongst other things.

What's your portion of the blame? what's mine? what are these other things?

You Suck!

Public sector should be hireNfire apart from sectors that need long term dedicated workers ie emergency services and not bloody office monkeys!

Jobs for the boys, jobs for life, and the idea of a lifer beauracrat are all ideas more at home in 19th century British colonial governance(hmm wonder how we ended up with this model?) and not the ffin modern world.

Lockstep

Riskymove wrote: »

my point is that most union members are voting not to strike

the CPSU held some protests, the exception that has proved the rule so far

teachers strike?? not so sure

Teachers did a strike but it was a fair while ago.

Not going against what you're saying; I'm pointing out that the unions aren't the shadowy ward bosses that they are made out to be.

Rosita

gamblor1975 wrote: »

We need to start getting value for money from our public sector which we are not at the moment.

In fairness this "value for money" argument is as disingenuous as it is cliched. By all accounts we need to reduce the public sector paybill - value for money doesn't come into it. Even if they worked 200 per cent harder the government would still be unable to afford the current pay bill so it is silly to say that we just need everyone to "work harder" to justify their pay. Right now we need to pay them less irrespective of how hard they work. At least let's call it what it is and not be hiding behind terms like "value for money".

NewDubliner

Rosita wrote: »

government would still be unable to afford the current pay bill..... Right now we need to pay them less irrespective of how hard they work.

Same goes for mortgages on boom-time housing. Will the private sector retrospectively reduce house prices?

eigrod

You Suck! wrote: »

Public sector should be hireNfire apart from sectors that need long term dedicated workers ie emergency services and not bloody office monkeys!

Jobs for the boys, jobs for life, and the idea of a lifer beauracrat are all ideas more at home in 19th century British colonial governance(hmm wonder how we ended up with this model?) and not the ffin modern world.

'Jobs for the boys' is one accusation you cannot throw at the Civil/Public Sector. It is probably the most fair and equitable system of access to employment in the country. Comments like that show how desperate people are to throw mud at the public sector at the moment.

Ms Happy

optocynic wrote: »

You shoulld read all the posts. We don't think you should be hit hard at all.
Is the 440 before or after deductions?

440 after deductions so thats about 512 before deductions. All I'm saying is I think it's wrong for so many people to be completelty anti public sector. There are more people on an "average" wage then on the huge pay packets and the majority of them work very hard for it!

If there is a pay cut I would be better off resigning and claiming what I would be entitled to on social welfare.... then i'd really be a "drain" on the country!!!!!

I have read all the posts :rolleyes: and most of the threads on the public sector.

Sizzler

Anybody else sick of David Begg

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0922/breaking31.html

wrote:

The general secretary of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (Ictu) has said he would expect a "strong level of resistance" by public sector workers to Government proposals to cut their pay.

Speaking at a press conference on the Lisbon treaty this morning, David Begg said he would be very surprised if public sector workers would entertain any such proposition.

"I think they have gone as far as they are going to go in terms of the 7 per cent pay cut they have already taken," he said.

Taoiseach Brian Cowen yesterday signalled that the Government was considering reductions in its €20 billion public sector pay and pension bill.

The ESRI has suggested public sector pay levels were running up to 25 per cent ahead of those in the private sector.

Mr Begg said that it could be coincidental, but that the ESRI had an extraordinary knack of bringing out reports that were unhelpful whenever an engagement between the trade union movement and the Government was in prospect.

bonkey

NewDubliner wrote: »

Same goes for mortgages on boom-time housing. Will the private sector retrospectively reduce house prices?

No, but I don't think anyone is asking for retrospective pay-cuts either....they're not asking the public sector to give back 10% of their pay-checks from last year, are they?

House prices, however, have fallen. Private sector salaries have fallen. Profits in private business have fallen. Tax intake has fallen.

Why are public sector salaries immune?

brianthebard wrote:

Not all unions are paid with tax revenues. As the OP pointed out all those pages ago this is the wrong debate that you are following. Of course unions sought to improve living conditions for their members, and it is their duty to prevent those conditions being diminished.

I would argue it is their duty to prevent those conditions being unfairly or unreasonably diminished.

seangal

gamblor1975 wrote: »

Have you seen todays Indo? 25% in the difference when compared to private sector. We are trying to regain some of our competitiveness compared to other countries and you think pay rises to the private sector are the way to go?

The Govt. needs to address public sector pay including Nurses,teachers and gardai but should really start at the top. They should not be allowed to set their own renumeration, its a joke.

We need to start getting value for money from our public sector which we are not at the moment. This report will give the govt. the ammo it needs to drop the wages but what we really need is reform so that the Public S behaves more like the private sector with regard to work practices and giving managers the tools they need to sort the wheat from the chaff.

I really hope this govt. dosn't bottle it with the PS unions!

Do u not think that a nurse on 35k a year working a 13 hour shift in A+E looking after some drunk on a saturday night is value for money???
Or a Garda or fire office trying to cut some young guy out of a car crash at 4 am is that not value for money????????

jimmmy

seangal wrote: »

Do u not think that a nurse on 35k a year working a 13 hour shift in A+E looking after some drunk on a saturday night is value for money???
Or a Garda or fire office trying to cut some young guy out of a car crash at 4 am is that not value for money????????

Getting personal and emotional in specific cases serves no argument.....especially when Nora the nurse, Gearoid the Guard and Eamonn the emergency worker are better paid than their counterparts in Birmingham, Berlin and everywhere else. What other country in the world has an average wage per public servant of 966 euro per week ( source : cso ) ? And gives one and a half years salary tax free to the policeman and 50% pension after only 30 years service ?

eigrod

bonkey wrote: »

Why are public sector salaries immune?

They're not. They've fallen also in the form of the pension levy.

JonathanAnon

Talking about this issue with Pat kenny at the moment. Why oh why do they always wheel out the Nurses and Ambulances Drivers for this debate. Nobody in the private sector has a problem with a nurse who earns €30,000 a year (well aside from the absenteeism which wouldnt be tolerated in the private sector).

How come they never wheel out he top level guys, on over 100k, planners who are now currently diving for cover lest they be noticed and see that they are no longer required, Administration staff, staff at these duplicated quangos etc etc.

Nurses and Ambulance Drivers are not the norm in the public sector, so why are they being portrayed as such.

NewDubliner

bonkey wrote: »

No, but I don't think anyone is asking for retrospective pay-cuts either...

I'm not asking the private sector to give back already paid mortgage repayments, just to waive the difference from now on. That's only fair.

Or, is fair-play only for banks and bulders?

You Suck!

eigrod wrote: »

'Jobs for the boys' is one accusation you cannot throw at the Civil/Public Sector. It is probably the most fair and equitable system of access to employment in the country. Comments like that show how desperate people are to throw mud at the public sector at the moment.

O RLY........:rolleyes:

You think that standardised psychometric testing and publicjobs.ie removes all the cushy numbers available once you get in? It's fair because the one and only test you have to take to get in is fair?

Let me ask what's fair? A private sector worker who has paid tax's all their lives getting fired or some snivelling shit who's never made an effort in their job and who can't get fired?

That's desperation to throw mud is it?

I've worked as a contractor with the Civil Service in the past, and what I have seen is disgusting! People of no merit who would have been dumped in the public sector living the life of Reilly!

Once your in, you are one of the boys! I have never seen an organisation so mired in petty politics and CYA. Where if you kiss the right ass and suck up to the right party and minister you'll be all right....even tho you wouldn't last five seconds in the real world. How's about ministerial appointments? That not "one for the boys"?

In fact this is bloody engrained in the system, a system that was created at the turn of the last century based on the British system it was inherited from.

But.....lets back off a minute. I don't want to seem to be unreasonable here. Do I want concessions for jobs like teacher where there is no career path?
Yes.

Do I want emergency service workers and critical workers with in the state to have a safety net and incentive to take up otherwise thankless jobs?
Yes.

Do I want some fuckin idiot who does nothing and collects the paycheck for incompetence because they can't be fired!
NO! NO! NO!

Don't think that publicjobs.ie and standardised testing were taken onboard to make things fair, as is ever true with the civil service at some point realised they would be liable and these were taken on board as ever with the quip cover your ass. The system has changed little since it's inception because it has served the interest of those who feed of it not to change it. Changes are only taken on as a matter of liability not as some enlightened vision of fairness and this will not change any time soon.

optocynic

seangal wrote: »

Do u not think that a nurse on 35k a year working a 13 hour shift in A+E looking after some drunk on a saturday night is value for money???
Or a Garda or fire office trying to cut some young guy out of a car crash at 4 am is that not value for money????????

The same old Public Sector party line... use the nurses.
What percentage of PS workers are nurses?.. and if you ask even the most rabid PS opponent.. they ALL want to see nurses pay increase...

Same for Gardai (To a degree.. lot of bullies in uniform out there too)..

We want useless buraucrats removed or put to WORK!..
Give us value for money.. it's what everyone deserves and expects.

optocynic

eigrod wrote: »

They're not. They've fallen also in the form of the pension levy.

That is NOT a pay cut....

It is a pay deferal.. at worst!

Helix

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Talking about this issue with Pat kenny at the moment. Why oh why do they always wheel out the Nurses and Ambulances Drivers for this debate. Nobody in the private sector has a problem with a nurse who earns €30,000 a year (well aside from the absenteeism which wouldnt be tolerated in the private sector).

How come they never wheel out he top level guys, on over 100k, planners who are now currently diving for cover lest they be noticed and see that they are no longer required, Administration staff, staff at these duplicated quangos etc etc.

Nurses and Ambulance Drivers are not the norm in the public sector, so why are they being portrayed as such.

yet you think the guys on over 100k are?

the bulk of public sector workers are on fairly rubbish wages, its the ones that you mention on the 6 figure ones who are driving up averages and leading to embittered private sector workers claiming that everyone in the public sector is making a fortune for doing nothing

i wouldnt class coming out with €400 a week as making a fortune to be honest with you