Public sector pay: the wrong debate

murphaph

eigrod wrote: »

They're not. They've fallen also in the form of the pension levy.

The pension levy is not a straight pay cut, like the private sector have been taking. Remember, every job lost is a 100% pay cut ;-)

irish_bob

Helix wrote: »

yet you think the guys on over 100k are?

the bulk of public sector workers are on fairly rubbish wages, its the ones that you mention on the 6 figure ones who are driving up averages and leading to embittered private sector workers claiming that everyone in the public sector is making a fortune for doing nothing

i wouldnt class coming out with €400 a week as making a fortune to be honest with you

absolute nonesense , the bulk of ps workers are not on rubbish wages and those on the bottom of the pay scale earn at least a third more than what they would earn in the private sector and thats before pensions are taken into account

nurses , guards , teachers , all theese state workers are in fantastic wages compared to what they would be earning in other european countries which are incidently wealthier than us

the era in which allowed this country makes its ps workers the highest paid in europe is a whole other country

NewDubliner

irish_bob wrote: »

nurses , guards , teachers , all theese state workers are in fantastic wages compared to what they would be earning in other european countries

And how much more than in Europe did the private sector charge them for their houses?

They're still paying off the capital on those loans. That is unlike, private-sector developers who'll just fold their shell companies and leave the taxpayer to compensate the banks for the defaulted loans.

gerry28

absolute nonesense , the bulk of ps workers are not on rubbish wages and those on the bottom of the pay scale earn at least a third more than what they would earn in the private sector and thats before pensions are taken into account

A public servant at the bottom earns €23,000pa thats €402 per week after tax.
I don't know to many people doing a weeks work for €300 euro a week.

Who would work for 300 per week when the dole + rent allowance + fuel allowance would be more than that.

NewDubliner

gerry28 wrote: »

A public servant at the bottom earns €23,000pa thats €402 per week after tax.

A private sector pensioner with an adult dependent gets the same amount (€400/week) from the government on top of his private-sector pension.

axer

gerry28 wrote: »

A public servant at the bottom earns €23,000pa thats €402 per week after tax.
I don't know to many people doing a weeks work for €300 euro a week.

Who would work for 300 per week when the dole + rent allowance + fuel allowance would be more than that.

Now you've hit the nail on the head. The dole is much too high. They need to cut public servants salaries (on a sliding scale hitting the higher end of the scale of pay more and barely, if at all, reducing the lower end). They need to cut the dole in half (but not touch job seekers benefit and remove the restriction on having to pick up the JSB money from the post office).

Doing just the above two things would be a good start. Before means testing child benefit and more.

If I was dictator leader of this country all the problems would be solved.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

And how much more than in Europe did the private sector charge them for their houses?

They're still paying off the capital on those loans. That is unlike, private-sector developers who'll just fold their shell companies and leave the taxpayer to compensate the banks for the defaulted loans.

Ordinary private sector PAYE employees who are LOSING THEIR JOBS left right and centre PAID EXACTLY THE SAME PRICES as the ordinary public sector PAYE workers. You have a VERY narrow view on what constitutes solidarity despite all the "us v them" rhetoric.

You can't see the private sector is mostly made up of ordinary (vulnerable) PAYE workers can you?

murphaph

gerry28 wrote: »

A public servant at the bottom earns €23,000pa thats €402 per week after tax.
I don't know to many people doing a weeks work for €300 euro a week.

Who would work for 300 per week when the dole + rent allowance + fuel allowance would be more than that.

The dole needs slashing. It's €351 in germany PER MONTH!

Ireland is NOT a rich country. It has nowhere near the resources of Germany yet it pays a minimum of €810 a month in dole. Do the maths. What's the dole in the UK, about £60 a week? Ireland lost the plot and there's no point saying but this and that costs too much-people will have to get used to bread and water in some cases as we totally overestimated our worth to the rest of the world.

irish_bob

murphaph wrote: »

The dole needs slashing. It's €351 in germany PER MONTH!

Ireland is NOT a rich country. It has nowhere near the resources of Germany yet it pays a minimum of €810 a month in dole. Do the maths. What's the dole in the UK, about £60 a week? Ireland lost the plot and there's no point saying but this and that costs too much-people will have to get used to bread and water in some cases as we totally overestimated our worth to the rest of the world.

very true , the notion that we are as wealth a country as the uk , netherlands or germany stems from the fact that for a few brief years , we had a freakish property boom which employed one in four and which generated revenues which allowed us pay our ps workers higher than anyone else , that country does not exist anymore and the country we live in right now cannot afford to be paying our consultants double what they do in germany , our teachers , 55% more than in finland , our nurses and police , 30% more than in the uk and our politicians a **** load more than everyone else

Rob67

Here's something to digest, I was listening to Hook this evening when this issue of public / private pay came up, he made mention of an IBEC statement were they carried out a study which showed only 30% of private sector companies imposed pay cuts on their staff and were in certain areas pay increases had been given. I've been trying to find it but to no avail at the moment.

Now, if this were true, if a further pay cut was imposed on the public sector... would that not constitute 100% of a particular workforce sector (i.e. public) receiving a drop in pay?

I am all for parity and equality in sharing the burden during this recession but would this not be considered imbalanced application of 'the pain we all have to bear'?

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Ordinary private sector PAYE employees who are LOSING THEIR JOBS left right and centre PAID EXACTLY THE SAME PRICES as the ordinary public sector PAYE workers. You have a VERY narrow view on what constitutes solidarity despite all the "us v them" rhetoric.

So why is the private sector (the one that charged everyone so much for houses) not cutting mortgage repayments? People got big mortgages on the foot of salary multiples. If you're going to cut wages, why not cut mortgages? If you're going to change previously agreed terms of employment, why not also change previously agreed house purchase contracts?

You seem to have a narrow view that the private sector is comprised entirely of low-paid and unemployed workers.

Seems to me that the rich part of your private sector wants to selectively rewind to the 1990's. Reducing everyone's wages, but keeping the obscene sums they got up front for the houses.

NinjaTruncs

gerry28 wrote: »

A public servant at the bottom earns €23,000pa thats €402 per week after tax.
I don't know to many people doing a weeks work for €300 euro a week.

Who would work for 300 per week when the dole + rent allowance + fuel allowance would be more than that.

Minimum wage is less than 18K a year so even the lowest paid PS working is getting nearly 30% more than that. Then take into account that the PS worker will get increments every year while the minimum wage worker isn't gauranteed anything. Also most minimum wage jobs don't offer a pension so when they retire all the will get is the state pension.

brianthebard

irish_bob wrote: »

nurses , guards , teachers , all theese state workers are in fantastic wages compared to what they would be earning in other european countries which are incidently wealthier than us

the era in which allowed this country makes its ps workers the highest paid in europe is a whole other country

the last time I asked you for evidence you ran away, I assume this time you have some facts to back up this post?

bonkey

NewDubliner wrote: »

I'm not asking the private sector to give back already paid mortgage repayments, just to waive the difference from now on.

Ah, I see my mistake now.

When you said "private sector" I thought you meant "private sector" rather than a euphemism for "banks".

I also thought that when you referred to "house prices" you meant "house prices" and not mortgages.

So when you asked if the private sector was going to retrospectively reduce house prices, what you were really asking is if the banks were going to proactively wipe out large chunks of mortgages.

Given that the banks are currently in dire straits, I'm not entirely sure how this is going to benefit anyone. What you're basically suggesting is that the banks remove a chunk of their income, putting them in even greater need, which will in turn have to be picked up by whatever mechanism is already bailing out the banks.

In effect, you're suggesting that "fairness" would be for all taxpayers to collectively shoulder the burden of the negative equity incurred by some.

Whatever about the merit of the suggestion, I'm at a total loss as to understand its relevance to the discussion about public sector salaries.

bonkey

irish_bob wrote: »

nurses , guards , teachers , all theese state workers are in fantastic wages compared to what they would be earning in other european countries which are incidently wealthier than us

How does the cost of living in these "wealthier" countries stack up against Ireland?

axer

bonkey wrote: »

How does the cost of living in these "wealthier" countries stack up against Ireland?

Well in Germany for instance petrol is running at about 1.30 euro per litre at the moment. Clothes are about the same price (I actually think the cheaper clothes in c&a in Germany for example are more expensive than Pennys or Dunnes here). Grocery shopping seems to be cheaper in Germany but that is only because 99% of the shops are shops like Lidl and Aldi (e.g. Netto, NP) s there is lots of competition in the lower end of the market. I think if you compare like for like with Lidl and Aldi here and there, there is not that much difference in prices if you took away the massive difference in cost of wages here (about 12 euro an hour here whereas maybe 5 euro an hour there) and extra VAT.

Remember the reason why it is more expensive to live in Ireland is because of the higher wages and higher social welfare. Bring down those and the prices have to come down.

The Government cannot control the wages of the private sector. They only have the power to reduce public sector pay.

jenzz

Today I had a 5 hour taste of our public system money haemorage. ( spelt wrong I know)

We need to cut as were spending so much.. so they tell us... well for the 5 hours I had to spend in 3 different government departments, social welfare, community welfare officer & housing department. I see where its going.

To get a form signed by one dept to bring to the another to get them to sign to issue you with a letter to bring back to the department to get another form to bring to the 3rd to sign for you to go back to the social, to then need PPS numbers which you must go to another department & queue again to get them & get the original form back to the CWO. Yep I got lost back there too. But this is it.....

Cut the waste - how many millions a year do they tell us the goverment spend on PCs - well use them & stop this waste of resources..

Its not the public sector or private sector who should face cuts in wages its this waste of time, effort , money...... Cut the policies made by people who will never see the cuts - Im sure her highness in charge of health wont be taking a cut .

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

So why is the private sector (the one that charged everyone so much for houses) not cutting mortgage repayments? .

The banks (one of which is now public sector but which has also 'failed' to drop interest rates) borrowed the money in most cases from the international money markets. These sources of money outside Ireland don't give a toss about anything except being repaid and as far as they are concerned, it's our problem to repay our debts as nobody forced anybody to buy a house at any price.

NewDubliner wrote: »

People got big mortgages on the foot of salary multiples. If you're going to cut wages, why not cut mortgages? If you're going to change previously agreed terms of employment, why not also change previously agreed house purchase contracts?.

See above. The mortgage issue extends outside Ireland. The money isn't just owed to AIB in Ballsbridge etc. It is owed all around the world. The world DOESN@T CARE about us and rightly so. We made our own bed and many people kept re-electing FF despite knowing it was a property boom and knowing that the original wealth creator (private sector manufacturing, services) was in serious decline.

NewDubliner wrote: »

You seem to have a narrow view that the private sector is comprised entirely of low-paid and unemployed workers..

No. I know full well the private sector is a diverse bunch of people trying to generate an income for themselves and generating wealth for Ireland Inc in the process. Without this diverse bunch, there would be no public service either of course.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Seems to me that the rich part of your private sector wants to selectively rewind to the 1990's. Reducing everyone's wages, but keeping the obscene sums they got up front for the houses.

What's the alternative? The money irsh people borrowed of their own free will to buy houses of their own free will is still owed to banks all around the world. It has to be repaid or Ireland will never be trusted again and it's game over. Irish people do bear a collective responsibility for house prices-if people hadn't paid it (and stayed at home longer like in the old days) in a rush to "get their own place" then the prices wouldn't have accelerated. There were failures of regulation and governance (both PS of course) but the biggest failure was that the irih people as a whole left their brains behind in 1990.

NewDubliner

bonkey wrote: »

Whatever about the merit of the suggestion, I'm at a total loss as to understand its relevance to the discussion about public sector salaries.

The relevance is that public sector salaries are being compared to those outside Ireland without reference to local property prices. For those with mortgages, the cost has not come down. They're still paying inflated boom-time prices.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

The relevance is that public sector salaries are being compared to those outside Ireland without reference to local property prices. For those with mortgages, the cost has not come down. They're still paying inflated boom-time prices.

This is not true for everyone with a mortgage! Many people bought before the boom and many still traded up, so benefitted from the increased value of their own property (nobody was complaining about that, were they?) when they did so, only taking on a modest mortgage for that big McMansion that everyone wanted!

IN ANY CASE! the world money markets don't care about what anyone paid for the house or what the house is now worth. They lent the money to irish banks who lent it to you (presumably because you asked them to?) and then your house price fell. You made the decision to buy it, not the banks, either domestic or foreign.

That is all irrelevant to the outside world. The money is simply not there to support existing PS wages. That is the crux of the issue. The banks (not the counter staff etc. the actual institutions) are scum but we still need them unless we want to turn into Zimbabwe.

bonkey

NewDubliner wrote: »

The relevance is that public sector salaries are being compared to those outside Ireland without reference to local property prices. For those with mortgages, the cost has not come down. They're still paying inflated boom-time prices.

I've re-read through our discussion, and I think I see a bit better where you're coming from now.

If I understand correctly, its this...

People are arguing that the government must reduce public-sector salary because they cannot afford to continue paying it.
You are arguing that the same logic should apply to house prices...that people with mortgages should pay back
less, on the grounds that they can afford to pay back less.

You also seem to be arguing that the two could/should be linked somehow...that if mortgages and thus mortgage payments remain as they were, its only fair that public sector salaries do as well.

There's a couple of problems with this argument.

For a start, there is a distinction between repaying a debt and a earning a salary.

Also, I would ask if your stance is that it is unfair that private sector salaries dropped, and that the correct solution is that they be brought back up, rather than that public sector salaries also be cut. I ask, because if that's not your stance, then I would argue that the connection to mortgage repayment is even more flawed...as you are suggesting that its somehow acceptable that one sector of employees get hit by this, but would be unfair for another to be similarly treated.

I am with you, however, in terms of the incorrectness of a direct comparison between salaries (public sector or otherwise) between nations, without taking cost of living into account. I'd be skeptical that it would result in the Irish public sector turning out to be hard done by, but I'm the first to say that its premature to draw conclusions without having all the facts.

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

That is NOT a pay cut....

It is a pay deferal.. at worst!

Oh but it is a paycut, we will not see that money as our pensions.
Myself and my girlfriend have lost the best part of €500 per month.

And we do work hard, we see the lazy lads getting paid too but there are a hell of a lot of people in here that do serious amounts of work.

As I've said before there's lazy sh*t's in both sectors and walks of life that do nothing and get paid.

It's not fair to pigeon-hole or stereotype every public sector office staff.
Also every public sector job is at the discretion of the minister for finance, he can reform and sack and hire if the mood takes him. So you can be let go from a PS job. There is also a system called PMDS which is performance mamagent where you set out goals and review your work so essentially you can't sit on your ar*e and pretend all your life.

optocynic

Wiley1 wrote: »

Oh but it is a paycut, we will not see that money as our pensions.
Myself and my girlfriend have lost the best part of €500 per month.

500 per month is not as bad as the numbers I have seen amongst my friends in the Private Sector. The ones that do still have jobs. Especially the law graduates.
And you will get a pension, so you will see guaranteed money in your retirement.

Wiley1 wrote: »

And we do work hard, we see the lazy lads getting paid too but there are a hell of a lot of people in here that do serious amounts of work.

As I've said before there's lazy sh*t's in both sectors and walks of life that do nothing and get paid. .

That is not true in the private sector, at least not the business I work in. I have personally let people go from my teams that were useless. Accountability & Results are paramount in the Private Sector

Wiley1 wrote: »

It's not fair to pigeon-hole or stereotype every public sector office staff.

I completely agree, but the Unions are protecting the lazy useless ones.
Surely that irks you!

Wiley1 wrote: »

Also every public sector job is at the discretion of the minister for finance, he can reform and sack and hire if the mood takes him. So you can be let go from a PS job. There is also a system called PMDS which is performance mamagent where you set out goals and review your work so essentially you can't sit on your ar*e and pretend all your life.

Doesn't everyone get a 3 in that?. Bellcurving not really required, since Social Partnership (contradiction in terms) guaranteed all Public Sector workers an annual increase?. Once again, that must piss off the real workers in the PS.

brianthebard

optocynic wrote: »

That is not true in the private sector, at least not the business I work in. I have personally let people go from my teams that were useless. Accountability & Results are paramount in the Private Sector

So there is no business in the private sector anywhere in Ireland that have people working for them that aren't up to scratch? Really?

I completely agree, but the Unions are protecting the lazy useless ones.
Surely that irks you!

Its not a Unions job to protect people who don't or won't do the work they signed up for. Do you actually know what a Union does? it doesn't seem like it.

optocynic

brianthebard wrote: »

So there is no business in the private sector anywhere in Ireland that have people working for them that aren't up to scratch? Really?.

I'm sure there are. But they are found out very quickly, and held accountable. Poor performance results in no pay increase, and possible pay decrease/dismissal.
Surely you can see the point I am making here!

brianthebard wrote: »

Its not a Unions job to protect people who do the work they signed up for. Do you actually know what a Union does? it doesn't seem like it.

I know what a union should do. Protect the best interests of the workers.

axer

Wiley1 wrote: »

It's not fair to pigeon-hole or stereotype every public sector office staff.
Also every public sector job is at the discretion of the minister for finance, he can reform and sack and hire if the mood takes him. So you can be let go from a PS job.

Really? Does that happen much? If it was as easy as that then there would be no problem. Sure the Minister of Finance could reform the whole Public Service sector in a few months. If it wasn't for those pesky unions.

Wiley1 wrote: »

There is also a system called PMDS which is performance mamagent where you set out goals and review your work so essentially you can't sit on your ar*e and pretend all your life.

Unless you set your goals really low. Whats going to happen to you - get fired? Get your pay cut? We're not talking about the private sector here.

brianthebard

optocynic wrote: »

I'm sure there are. But they are found out very quickly, and held accountable. Poor performance results in no pay increase, and possible pay decrease/dismissal.
Surely you can see the point I am making here!

the only point I can see in your posts is bashing the public sector and unions.

I know what a union should do. Protect the best interests of the workers.

Which is not the same as what you posted.

optocynic

brianthebard wrote: »

the only point I can see in your posts is bashing the public sector and unions.

I don't bash the whole Public Sector. Just the useless Buraucrats.
Nurses are heros, as are Firemen.. Gardai on a whole are heros too (Some are bullies).

I do however bash the stubborn, self-serving unions. There is no partnership to their side of the social partnership!

You Suck!

Also every public sector job is at the discretion of the minister for finance, he can reform and sack and hire if the mood takes him. So you can be let go from a PS job.

Which would no doubt explain the high number of PS workers without a job because of spending cuts in the recession :rolleyes:

Wiley1

optocynic wrote: »

500 per month is not as bad as the numbers I have seen amongst my friends in the Private Sector. The ones that do still have jobs. Especially the law graduates.
And you will get a pension, so you will see guaranteed money in your retirement.

True, I know people are worse off than i am, although out of a household of 7 I am the only one working so everyone has a tale to tell. I would still be entitled to my pension if thet levy wasn't introduced and seeing as it is acually gone from my expendible income I consider it a paycut.



That is not true in the private sector, at least not the business I work in. I have personally let people go from my teams that were useless. Accountability & Results are paramount in the Private Sector

I worked in KPMG for a few years and i saw lazy people riding on the back of others getting the same if not better money, it might not happen where you are but it does happen. IMHO


I completely agree, but the Unions are protecting the lazy useless ones.
Surely that irks you!

Big time, I agree completely, I see the lazy lifers in here and I'm sure you've guessed that they are the unions biggest supporters.


Doesn't everyone get a 3 in that?. Bellcurving not really required, since Social Partnership (contradiction in terms) guaranteed all Public Sector workers an annual increase?. Once again, that must piss off the real workers in the PS.

It's true that it isn't taken as seriously as the private sector but a bad review and you're increment isn't approved in some cases, I think i earn my keep and you are right, a reformation of all public sector workings, earnings, spendings and labour force is badly needed. weed out the wasters and get pro-active with the public's money.