Public sector pay: the wrong debate

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

No, you should not ask personal questions here.

It wasn't a personal question but just to rephrase it so you can't dodge it again I will.

When a person buys a house, is there a chance the price will fall as well as rise afterwards?

NewDubliner wrote: »

I'm interested in the morals of a situation where banks and property developers continue to be paid at boom-time prices (on houses bought during the boom) and ordinary employees get salary cuts on salaries agreed during the boom.

What impact do you think will this have on society?

Irish society needs to learn a valuable and hard lesson I'm afraid. If people are going to lose the run of themselves and buy houses for 500k where they KNOW the materials cost 50k MAX, then they will eventually come a cropper. It's only a minority in negative equity and they have to live with their decision to buy what they bought. The developers are not being paid at boom time prices. They sold their developments (the lucky ones anyway) and people are now repaying loans to banks (who should also be repaid!).

Seriously, this NEEDS to be painful for the people who swallowed it all or IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN! It has to be lodged into the thick skulls of the people that property booms ALWAYS go bust. Ireland needed this bust. Perhaps we'll re-evaluate our views on land/property in general now and move towards a bigger rental market.

You CANNOT insulate private citizens from their own stupidity. The banks (as much as it absolutely SICKENS me) are a necessary evil and we need at least two big ones to provide some competition. Developers can all go bust as far as I care but if banks start collapsing owing money externally, Ireland is really finished for decades.

gdael

bonkey wrote: »

A refund from whom, exactly?

If you bought the house from someone other than a property developer, you're free to go ask them. You can go ask the property developer, if that's who you bought it off, but they're broke, so I doubt they have a refund to give you.

The bank can't give you a refund...you haven't bought anything off them and they're broke to boot.

You could argue, of course, that the government should bail you out just like its bailing out the banks and the property developers. In that case, you're asking your fellow countrymen - public and private sector employees alike - to pay for your mistake....which is ironic, given that your objection seems to be rooted in just that idea....the regular Joes having to pay for others ****ing up.

Sure didnt peoples pensions lose more than houses lost. Who will bail them out?

People just didnt control their own finances and got rolled over when the economy turned on them. **** happens. In 5 years or so we'll be wondering what the big deal was again.

NewDubliner

bonkey wrote: »

A refund from whom, exactly...You could argue, of course, that the government should bail you out just like its bailing out the banks and the property developers.

It's a rhetorical question.

The 'free-marketeers' want to screw Joe public with full-on mortgage debt and deep pay cuts. But at the same time want public money to bail out Barry-the Banker and Paddy-the-developer.

It would seem that their message is loudest in the media and here on boards.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

It's a rhetorical question.

No it's not, you just don't want to answer it as it implies personal responsibility is a factor!

NewDubliner wrote: »

The 'free-marketeers' want to screw Joe public with full-on mortgage debt and deep pay cuts.

The country can't afford the PS wage bill. Private sector employees (if they have managed to hold onto their obs thusfar) have experienced severe pay cuts with much worse to come. The country unfortunately can't afford it's banks to simply go bankrupt. "Joe Public" doesn't have full on mortgage debt, only a minority are in negative equity. Everyone else who still has a job should be happy enough.

NewDubliner wrote: »

But at the same time want public money to bail out Barry-the Banker and Paddy-the-developer.

The banks are a necessary evil. Can you not see that? What do you think would happen to our international credibility if we let our big banks just go bust? Why do you think almost EVERY developed country (even ones without the hysterical boom we had) have some sort of bank-bailout in progress?
I haven't seen any rescue packages for developers proposed??

Do you not see ANY personal responsibility for the people who freely chose to buy these overpriced houses?

Dr Galen

tbh this has nothing to do with free marketeers as you would call them. It's a reality check situation.

We can't have a functioning economy without a functioning banking system. Right now, we need to stop looking back at what went on, there will be plenty of time for that, we need to get the banks working properly. While it might seem like a bailout, it's needed. It sickens me to come across as I'm on their side, because I despise what went on as much as anyone, but something has to be done. Whether that something is called NAMA or anything else, it's needed. We have no choice.

Developers are not getting handouts. I'm not sure where thats coming from. The loans will be transferred and repaid to NAMA (if passed). They will still owe the money, only now its to NAMA.

gdael

murphaph wrote: »

Private sector employees (if they have managed to hold onto their obs thusfar) have experienced severe pay cuts with much worse to come. The country unfortunately can't afford it's banks to simply go bankrupt. "Joe Public" doesn't have full on mortgage debt, only a minority are in negative equity. Everyone else who still has a job should be happy enough.

Am i the only private sector worker who still gets their bonus and pension.?

I find that hard to believe. I also dont know anyone who is skilled and experienced and has lost a job and not been able to get another within a couple of weeks.

I know its the in thing to say we've all had paycuts , yet i have seen no sign of this. Surely im not alone.

yes, maybe the unskilled or low skilled and construction workers have lost jobs or have had pay cuts, but thats life. Get some skills and you can prevent that. Your destiny is in your own hands.

murphaph

gdael wrote: »

Am i the only private sector worker who still gets their bonus and pension.?

I find that hard to believe. I also dont know anyone who is skilled and experienced and has lost a job and not been able to get another within a couple of weeks.

I know its the in thing to say we've all had paycuts , yet i have seen no sign of this. Surely im not alone.

yes, maybe the unskilled or low skilled and construction workers have lost jobs or have had pay cuts, but thats life. Get some skills and you can prevent that.

May I ask what sector you're in? Architects and solicitors are what I would call skilled, still lots of them have either lost their jobs or had paycuts/massiv downturn in income. I'm sure some sectors can survive any recession unscathed, but most can't.

gdael

murphaph wrote: »

May I ask what sector you're in? Architects and solicitors are what I would call skilled, still lots of them have either lost their jobs or had paycuts/massiv downturn in income. I'm sure some sectors can survive any recession unscathed, but most can't.

Im in IT. My partner is on the food business. Neither of us have noticed.
I know some solicitors too (my 2 sisters are solicitors). They tell me only the newly qualified solicitors are being let go. The ones hired in the last year or 2 for the conveyancing side of things. Its a conversation i have regularly, as im curious. I think people are over-hyping it.

Architects are in construction. Thats a tough life alright at the moment.

murphaph

gdael wrote: »

Im in IT. My partner is on the food business. Neither of us have noticed.
I know some solicitors too (my 2 sisters are solicitors). They tell me only the newly qualified solicitors are being let go. The ones hired in the last year or 2 for the conveyancing side of things. Its a conversation i have regularly, as im curious. I think people are over-hyping it.

Architects are in construction. Thats a tough life alright at the moment.

I guess it depends what sort of IT. Programmers will be ok but I suspect lower level stuff like desk support will suffer. Perhaps solicitors are a bad example as along with accountants they can also do quite well of of "other people' misery" for want of a better expression.

I know skilled RF engineers who have had to take lower skilled jobs (or leave Ireland) and the resultant pay cuts. It is a bit anecdotal alright, but the jobless figures show the true picture-everyone made unemployed gets a 100% pay cut!

Dr Galen

yes but I think the point is that "everyone" is not unemployed. Lots of people are still in employment. Not "everyone" has taken a pay cut, again some have, but I'd be interested in knowing how many in real terms have had to.

gdael

murphaph wrote: »

I guess it depends what sort of IT. Programmers will be ok but I suspect lower level stuff like desk support will suffer. Perhaps solicitors are a bad example as along with accountants they can also do quite well of of "other people' misery" for want of a better expression.

I know skilled RF engineers who have had to take lower skilled jobs (or leave Ireland) and the resultant pay cuts. It is a bit anecdotal alright, but the jobless figures show the true picture-everyone made unemployed gets a 100% pay cut!

Even support staff dont seem to be feeling it in IT. Apart from some chancers who arent any good. We did let a couple of them go, but had to replace them with people who knew what they were doing, so i wouldnt consider them redundancies. Took a while to find people to replace them too.

I mentioned pay cuts at a meeting for a joke one day and the response i got was "Fine, as long as you dont pay us any less than we'll get somewhere else." It was kinda funny. They were all ready to go. I had to declare the joke right away, before it got out of hand.

Id be interested in hearing from people who got pay cuts and what jobs they do, and why they dont move if they have take the pay cut. It would tell a lot to know what their jobs are.

irish_bob

gdael wrote: »

Even support staff dont seem to be feeling it in IT. Apart from some chancers who arent any good. We did let a couple of them go, but had to replace them with people who knew what they were doing, so i wouldnt consider them redundancies. Took a while to find people to replace them too.

I mentioned pay cuts at a meeting for a joke one day and the response i got was "Fine, as long as you dont pay us any less than we'll get somewhere else." It was kinda funny. They were all ready to go. I had to declare the joke right away, before it got out of hand.

Id be interested in hearing from people who got pay cuts and what jobs they do, and why they dont move if they have take the pay cut. It would tell a lot to know what their jobs are.

so what if you dont know any companies or business,s who have enforced pay cuts , if thier not a loss making entity , they obviously see no reason to , the state is broke , it has to enforce pay cuts , the private sector is entirely different to the public sector in this regard and its an altogether bogus claim to say that their should be uniform pay cuts across all private sector places of work in the name of fairness and equity with out public sector workers

nurses , guards , consultants judges , all work for the one employer , the salesman in currys , the mechanic in the toyota garrage , the chef in the red cow , theese workers are not in anyway part of some monolith , one would think from listening to various arguement that the only way public sector workers will accept pay cuts is if the state knocks on every private sector place of work in the country and asks the question , have your staff all taken a 10% pay cut this year like deidre the clerical officer in the county council office in tullamore

Dr Galen

ehhhh gdael hasn't mentioned public sector workers in the post you quoted. The question that he is asking is related to the over-egging of the negative employment situation by some people out there. I don't see mention of uniform cuts across the private sector either.

I would imagine what is trying to be got at here, is are there elements out there, pushing these lines, in order to pursue an agenda all of their own.

gdael

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

ehhhh gdael hasn't mentioned public sector workers in the post you quoted. The question that he is asking is related to the over-egging of the negative employment situation by some people out there. I don't see mention of uniform cuts across the private sector either.

I would imagine what is trying to be got at here, is are there elements out there, pushing these lines, in order to pursue an agenda all of their own.

Couldnt have said it better myself

I never said their werent cuts, just that they seem to be confined to the unskilled/ low skilled, and construction.

Seriously though, id like to hear from people suffering cuts and what jobs they do.

SparkyLarks

brianthebard wrote: »

. There are others who believe moral ethical and ideological principles should not be sold off in that rush.

But we can't afford to to pay for these moral ethical and ideological principles. This whole economic mess was made by people spending more thatn they earned. Ireland can't afford to do that either. We have to make cuts somewhere.

Just like a family who had had a drop in income has to tighten the belt and say, not go on holiday so they can pay the mortgadge. And obviously the hiliday would be great to relieve stress, open the children to new cultures....

The Irish Govt must find the things which they can cut so they can afford the things they must fund.

BUT this is the wrong debate. WE have to ALL cop on and admit that we are all to blame. We all happily watched the value of our houses go up, or watched our taxes bein cut. And we all elected a bunch of plonkers to the Dail with little experience in running anything and expected them to run a country. But we are all bickereing blaming every body else, the unions the public sector, the captains of industr, the property speculators.

We like someone with a hangover blambing the person who bought them the last pint. We all enjoyed the party and we all have to get together and help with the clean up.

megaman01

i blame it on the sea food salad:D

Dyr

SparkyLarks wrote: »

But we can't afford to to pay for these moral ethical and ideological principles. This whole economic mess was made by people spending more thatn they earned. Ireland can't afford to do that either. We have to make cuts somewhere.

Nah, the whole economic mess was caused by people with zero morals or ethics. And we're going to throw all our money at them in the hope that they can now be trusted to do the right thing. I can see that working real well.

brianthebard

SparkyLarks wrote: »

But we can't afford to to pay for these moral ethical and ideological principles.

So effectively the person or people who screw the country over wins, is that it? FF policies and financial sector foolishness got the country into this mess, therefore we should follow them further into it? The idea that because a government failed we should no longer hold onto our principles is appalling, disgusting and completely wrongheaded.

asdasd

FF policies and financial sector foolishness got the country into this mess, therefore we should follow them further into it?

Ah the powerlessness of the common man meme. Not every single housebuyer was dragged kicking and screaming to the real estate agents to buy a house by evil agents of Fianna Fail and the Developers.

Some went willingly.

NewDubliner

asdasd wrote: »

Not every single housebuyer was dragged kicking and screaming to the real estate agents to buy a house by evil agents of Fianna Fail and the Developers. Some went willingly.

Or were seduced by wild fantastic assumptions that their properties would not drop by 50% in that their salaries would not be slashed and taxes would not be steeply increased?

Was it so reckless of them to make these assumptions?

sparkylarks wrote:

We all enjoyed the party and we all have to get together and help with the clean up.

Except that the people who trashed the house have moved on to the next party.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

Or were seduced by wild fantastic assumptions that their properties would not drop by 50% in that their salaries would not be slashed and taxes would not be steeply increased?

If they were seduced then they were also at fault (to a large degree). Nobody here (I hope) is saying that all was well with the (public sector) regulation of the banks or the (private sector) banking practices but these practices were not unique to Ireland. Most 'anglo saxon' countries had similar 100% mortgages on offer for example.

You keep failing to answer this simple question:
When a person buys a house, should they expect that the price can fall as well as rise?

NewDubliner wrote: »

Was it so reckless of them to make these assumptions?

Evidently, it was!

You seem unwilling/unable to see that the punters who FLOCKED to buy property also have responsibility in all this. If there hadn't been a market for their houses, developers would have sold them. Also, as pointed at numerous times-thousands and thousands of private individuals (public sector/private sector) happily sold their own houses at massively inflated prices. They weren't complaining!

Take some responsibility for your own actions.

bonkey

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

the over-egging of the negative employment situation by some people out there.

The rapid rise in unemployment in Ireland is very real. It may be primarily from a limited number of employment sectors, but its hard to "overegg" the rise.

I don't see mention of uniform cuts across the private sector either.

I don't see any mention of uniform cuts across the public sector.

The total bill in the public sector is too high.
The average in the public sector appears to be suspiciously high as well.

This does not mean that everyone in the public sector needs a pay cut.

The problem, perhaps, is that the government wouldn't have the balls to tackle the problem areas within the public sector, and would instead go for an across-the-board approach....but it would be a typical "wrong solution for the wrong problem" approach that we've come to know and love from our boys in charge.

bonkey

NewDubliner wrote: »

Was it so reckless of them to make these assumptions?

Maybe. It was, at least, a calculated risk.

For the last number of years, there have always been people telling us we were in a bubble.

There have always been people telling us that the inexorable rise of house prices could not continue, and that things could go badly pear-shaped given how (over) extended the average new buyer was in terms of debt.

We collectively chose not to listen to those people. We ignored all the signs. We behaved with the Madness of Crowds in a manner that was textbook behaviour for an economic bubble.

Now, we're still doing so. The bubble has burst, and we're doing exactly what always is done. We're looking for someone to blame...someone else to be at fault. Someone who we want to pay the price for the decisions we individually made.

Many people were over-extended. When they were told they were over-extended, they rationalised it away. The argued that with inflation and rising salaries and so forth, it was a only a short-term exposure. So what if they were paying every last red cent to repay their mortgage...in three or four years they'd be in the clear...and then it was happy days.

Tey got caught out...or at least some of them did. Their salaries have been cut, and they find themselves in a position where they're not in the clear. You ask about their salaries...but what would these people have done if interest rates spiked instead? Variable-rate mortgages could have become unpayable. Again...its a risk that every mortgaged home-owner should be aware of.

Is it reckless to take these risks? Maybe, depending on the timing. Either which way, its always a risk...and to be honest, I have little sympathy for anyone who takes on such a burden of debt without thinking through all the possibiities. I know that when I took my mortgage, the questions I asked myself included things like the following:

What if I lose my job. What if I get seriously ill. What if I die, and my wife has to fend for herself and our daughter. What if house prices crash and I can't ever afford to move from here. What if interest rates climb back to the levels they were in the 80s.

The list is almost endless, but I asked myself those questions, and I made my decisions to take the associated risks and/or to take mitigating steps where I felt it was needed. Taking the risks isn't reckless, but not asking myself those questions would have been.

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

Couldnt have said it better myself

I never said their werent cuts, just that they seem to be confined to the unskilled/ low skilled, and construction.

Seriously though, id like to hear from people suffering cuts and what jobs they do.

I know for a fact that PWC introduced at least 1 10% pay cut across the board, back in March i think it was, with more to follow, KPMG have left 400 people go during 2009 (admittedly a lot had just finished training contract but they would definately not have expected it, its unprecedented)

I think its a little unfair of you to say that its only unskilled who are taking pay cuts just because it hasn't effected you and your wife. I also haven't had a pay cut (pay increase as i changed jobs actually) but i'm not ignorant enough to believe that the private sector isn't in real trouble.

Also you say that unskilled workers should skill up, I'm sorry but that reminds me of the government bull of having a knowledge economy. Look not everybody needs a degree or should feel the necessity to go to uni. Simple fact is that factory workers/unskilled workers do many vital jobs throughout the country and indeed they create the vast amount of the employed workforce in the private sector, just becasue Jo Bloggs has some bulls##t Arts degree from UCD along with 10,000 others that year doesn't mean he is any more skilled than an electricition who has spent 4 years training

And that is where this government has gone wrong, it had absolutley no focus, emphasis or will to support small, local or indigenous industry, instead it hinders them with ridiculous employment laws, a studpidly high minimum wage and absolutely no govenment support. There too busy chasing this rubbish "Knowledge economy" that they keep spouting on about. That along with bank regulation (i.e. complete lack of) and benchmarking have been the ruination of this economy

Tipp Man

SparkyLarks wrote: »

This whole economic mess was made by people spending more thatn they earned. Ireland can't afford to do that either. We have to make cuts somewhere.

Bambi wrote: »

Nah, the whole economic mess was caused by people with zero morals or ethics. And we're going to throw all our money at them in the hope that they can now be trusted to do the right thing. I can see that working real well.

I'm sorry but Sparky is completly right on this 1 and its a trend i see with New Dubliner etc, and its people completly unwilling to accept responsability for their part in this mess, anyone who bought an overpriced house, an over the top car, 4 holidays a year, on borrowed money, and this is the important bit, THAT THEY COULDN'T AFFORD, is to blame for this. And remember nobody and i mean nobody held a gun to anyone's head in the last 10 years saying they had to buy a property, this keeping up with the jones's mentality that is rife in this country has a lot to answer for

I'm getting really sick of everyone taking the soft option and blaming the banks and the developers (I work for neither by the way) both in the media and on here. When are people going to be man enough to stand up and say, hey i was part of this problem, i spent 500k on a cardboard box in dublin, our 2 beemers that we can't afford were a bit over the top etc. Then and only then will this country have learned the lessons of this collapse but judging by some of the rubbish on here that will never happen

So let me be the first to hold my hand up and say Yes i spent a lot, borrowed a bit during the boom, i went on some fantastic holidays and i have a good car (didn't buy prooperty though) so there you have it, I was living above my means and AIB financed a lot of it, i accept my part in the spending boom of the last 5 years, it was great craic though wasn't it

Tipp Man

NewDubliner wrote: »

Or were seduced by wild fantastic assumptions that their properties would not drop by 50% in that their salaries would not be slashed and taxes would not be steeply increased?

Was it so reckless of them to make these assumptions?

Except that the people who trashed the house have moved on to the next party.

To be fair people like McWilliams were saying in 2005or 2006 that we were in trouble

Look any investment advert i have every seen always say something along the lines of "the value of your investment may go down as well as up ...."

If you were stupid enough to over extend yourself and buy an overpriced property it is your own fault, not AIB BOI or any develper, it is YOUR OWN FAULT, deal with it and don't expect any sympathy from me

gdael

Tipp Man wrote: »

I know for a fact that PWC introduced at least 1 10% pay cut across the board, back in March i think it was, with more to follow, KPMG have left 400 people go during 2009 (admittedly a lot had just finished training contract but they would definately not have expected it, its unprecedented)

I think its a little unfair of you to say that its only unskilled who are taking pay cuts just because it hasn't effected you and your wife. I also haven't had a pay cut (pay increase as i changed jobs actually) but i'm not ignorant enough to believe that the private sector isn't in real trouble.

Also you say that unskilled workers should skill up, I'm sorry but that reminds me of the government bull of having a knowledge economy. Look not everybody needs a degree or should feel the necessity to go to uni. Simple fact is that factory workers/unskilled workers do many vital jobs throughout the country and indeed they create the vast amount of the employed workforce in the private sector, just becasue Jo Bloggs has some bulls##t Arts degree from UCD along with 10,000 others that year doesn't mean he is any more skilled than an electricition who has spent 4 years training

And that is where this government has gone wrong, it had absolutley no focus, emphasis or will to support small, local or indigenous industry, instead it hinders them with ridiculous employment laws, a studpidly high minimum wage and absolutely no govenment support. There too busy chasing this rubbish "Knowledge economy" that they keep spouting on about. That along with bank regulation (i.e. complete lack of) and benchmarking have been the ruination of this economy

I work in one of thiose companies. Im not going to say which. Those let go were on short term contracts. They were trainees and as such the companies take a hit on training them in the hope that they'll keep a lot of them working there when they've learned enough to be productive.

So they were low-skilled, fresh accountants. And ypur 10% pay cut didnt happen. Some people were asked about pay cuts and those skilled enough to refuse, were able to refuse. Those who were terrible at their jobs had no choice.

Im not saying low skilled or unskilled arent vital to the economy. They are. What i am saying is that they are easily replaced with the next low skilled person willing to work for less - so they are the ones feeling the pain.

Its not so easy to replace skilled staff, so they are relatively untouched, and able to move if they need to.

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

I work in one of thiose companies. Im not going to say which. Those let go were on short term contracts. They were trainees and as such the companies take a hit on training them in the hope that they'll keep a lot of them working there when they've learned enough to be productive.

So they were low-skilled, fresh accountants. And ypur 10% pay cut didnt happen. Some people were asked about pay cuts and those skilled enough to refuse, were able to refuse. Those who were terrible at their jobs had no choice.

Im not saying low skilled or unskilled arent vital to the economy. They are. What i am saying is that they are easily replaced with the next low skilled person willing to work for less - so they are the ones feeling the pain.

Its not so easy to replace skilled staff, so they are relatively untouched, and able to move if they need to.

Sorry but how can you have a low skilled accountant, they were qualified accountants, low in experience yes as i acknowleded, but certainly not low in skill/qualifiications. They had all been to university and all passed their professional accounting exams.

And I know at least 5 people in various departments (all accounting related) in PWC who all got 10% pay cuts, I was there when several of them were discussing it, and at least 3 were at management level, audit managers etc and have been there for a good few years. Perhaps these cuts did not go through but i know for definite that they were all told they were getting 10% cuts, I haven't asked them since about it

gdael wrote: »

Im not saying low skilled or unskilled arent vital to the economy. They are. What i am saying is that they are easily replaced with the next low skilled person willing to work for less - so they are the ones feeling the pain.

Its not so easy to replace skilled staff, so they are relatively untouched, and able to move if they need to.

I don't really get your point, i mean its obvious that low skills are easy to replace, nearly every person in the country over 10 years old can sweep a road but only maybe 10 people in the country can perform brain surgery. The point is that these low skilled people being let go aren't being replaced by people willing to work for less, its is the jobs themselves that are going, there is no role for the cheaper person to fill, that is the problem

I am surprised you are trying to down play how much difficulty the private sector is in right across the country

gdael

Tipp Man wrote: »

Sorry but how can you have a low skilled accountant, they were qualified accountants, low in experience yes as i acknowleded, but certainly not low in skill/qualifiications. They had all been to university and all passed their professional accounting exams.

Despite what people graduating from college think, they are no use to anyone until get get the necessary skills to be useful. Thats why companies have training programs. Sure they have a degree, and have shown they have an aptitude for the work, but until they are trained properly they are not skilled in any sense of the word. I kinow its hard for them to take after 3 or 4 years in uni, but thats the way it is.

Tipp Man wrote: »

And I know at least 5 people in various departments (all accounting related) in PWC who all got 10% pay cuts, I was there when several of them were discussing it, and before you ask at least 3 were at management level, audit managers etc and have been there for a good few years

Well you and i know different people then. My experience of this is different to yours.

Tipp Man wrote: »

I don't really get your point, i mean its obvious that low skills are easy to replace, nearly every person in the country over 10 years old can sweep a road but only maybe 10 people in the country can perform brain surgery. The point is that these low skilled people being let go aren't being replaced by people willing to work for less, its is the jobs themselves that are going, there is no role for the cheaper person to fill, that is the problem

Dont get or wont get. Its very obvious. And yes there is a role for a cheaper person to fill. It may not be in Ireland, but its there. But you are right. Some companies are badly managed and will fold in times of stress. This is and always has been the way of the world.

Tipp Man wrote: »

I am surprised you are trying to down play how much difficulty the private sector is in right across the country

Im not trying to play it down at all. Its just not there.
I hear about wage cuts everywhere, but when you query it its always a friend of a friend, or someone they met or heard talking about it, or something they read on a news forum. The only ones who have personally experienced having had wage cuts that i have met are un/low skilled workers, construction workers or civil servants.

Tipp Man

gdael wrote: »

Im not trying to play it down at all. Its just not there.
I hear about wage cuts everywhere, but when you query it its always a friend of a friend, or someone they met or heard talking about it, or something they read on a news forum. The only ones who have personally experienced having had wage cuts that i have met are un/low skilled workers, construction workers or civil servants.

Well for starters my girlfriends company (my old company) has introduced 10% wage cuts, no bonus. A couple of friends of mine (factory jobs) have been put on 3 day weeks. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean its not happening.

gdael wrote: »

Dont get or wont get. Its very obvious. And yes there is a role for a cheaper person to fill. It may not be in Ireland, but its there. But you are right. Some companies are badly managed and will fold in times of stress. This is and always has been the way of the world.

Are you talking about some kinda world economy here, what i am saying is that Irish jobs are being lost at unprecedented rates, take a look at our unemployement levels if you don't believe me. Now if your saying the reason is because its cheaper to employ people elsewhere then i agree completly but this was a discussion on the Irish economy and at the moment people cannot get work even if they are willing to work cheaper, that is surely a common known fact.