[BPB] Design discussion

oscarBravo

Hey all - I've volunteered to do the actual layout & design work for this year's photo book.

There's a bit of work to be done before I can get going on that process for real, but I'd like to get a head-start on a discussion on design ideas in general. I'm leaving this in the form of a free-ranging conversation, which I'll probably crystalise into some polls later.

First, some thoughts of my own. Thinking big-picture, my vision for this book is that of the second in an ongoing series of such books. The first book was hugely successful, and I'd love to think that this is the second of many more instalments. On that basis, I'm thinking about what will unite the books in a common thread, and what will differentiate them.

My instinct is to keep the overall size and shape of the book, and change the colour scheme. I'm visualising my bookshelf in a few years' time, with several BPBs lined up side by side, all clearly identifiable as such, and each one sufficiently distinct that I can pull the 2010 out just by glancing at the colour of the spine. Keeping the size and shape also means having a series of books that look like a matched set.

My first instinct is to lean towards a lighter colour scheme both outside and in. The black "darkroom" look last year was awesome, but I could see it feeling like a cliché if it was repeated. The simplicity of the layout appealed to me, so I'm thinking the same basic layout - but on a white backdrop instead of black (or maybe a very pale grey or off-white, to soften it).

One final (for now) thought: I'm a big fan of consistency in layout, so it would be great if we could agree on a standard approach to captioning. The attached screenshot shows an idea for a layout, with three text blocks - a title and photographer name (with optional boards.ie handle); a short paragraph with information about the photograph; and the various EXIF details for nerdiness.

Early discussion - open to the floor.

m_s_nixon

I love those ideas for the layout

any idea on when pictures will need to be submitted by?

oscarBravo

m_s_nixon wrote: »

any idea on when pictures will need to be submitted by?

That's a question for the project manager, I'm just the layout monkey.

I've attached another layout mockup, this time of a portrait page. The same text boxes apply, and the photo is the same size as that on the landscape page, so - even though the book layout is landscape - both portrait and landscape photos get presented at the same size.

The attached mockup is for a left-hand page. I haven't mocked one up yet, but the idea is to have right-hand pages mirrored, to keep the text towards the binding and the photo towards the page edge.

oscarBravo

Something to consider, also: aspect ratios. My camera takes pictures in a 3:2 aspect ratio, which I quite like, but many photos are in a more traditional 4:3 aspect ratio. I've cropped the two mockups to a 4:3 ratio to show the full size of the picture space available in each layout.

All four mockups to date (to save people from having to click on attachments):









I don't plan to crop any of the photos submitted. That would be... bad.

oscarBravo

Last one for now: the portrait mockup adapted to a right-hand page.

melekalikimaka

gonna shift this to the main forum til sorted if thats cool

xia

Thanks for all the ideas and work already.
As for the discussion. I am not a huge fan of white pages, tbh I love black. But then again I like the idea of changing the colour each year. Not only because it shows that it's not just a duplicate of the previous year. So I would vote for maybe grey(ish).
I like the clear layout, the font and the idea of EXIF info (even though my will be boring...). Nothing to add there from my side.
As I am not familiar with ratios I'd go with whatever the others say and do my best to fit in;)

AnCatDubh

/stuck for the duration of the discussion

AnCatDubh

A couple of thoughts -

Allow me be devil's advocate for a moment:

The exif is a great idea for the nerdy pixel peeper types (oops, have I just offended anyone) but with the best will in the world there will be some without (noobs with no knowledge of how to include them - that's ok noobs btw, mistakes by the pros - the 'oh i thought i had included them like sorry mannn, etc...). This will kinda fly in the face of consistency as you flick through the pages (holy cr*p, but I just typed flickr through the pages :eek:). So, consistency as a design consideration which I completely agree with would be challenged if it were to be included.

Of course you could simply make up a new camera with ISO's of 100,000 and apertures of 1.0, and shutter time of 3 hours for any image that hadn't included the exif That'd be fun to see the looks. Or claim that they were all produced with Bresson's actual Leica? Oh boy, you could have fun with the possibilities here

Ok, now for some non devils advocate;

I too loved the black of last year - extolled awesomeness all around. White would be risky but then again black last year was risky so, sure why not.

I like the idea of theme-ing each publication into a series. Cover colour changing is a definite runner - maybe last year was entirely too cool being entirely black.

One thing that did really work last year was the white border on the image which served to set it off against the background. I see you've included it in the samples. One suggestion - would it look well separated from the image by a few pixels. People with design knowledge can shoot that one down if its a no-no.

One final thing on the exif idea - if running with it how about pasting it across a single line and very faint - the concept here being that it becomes unobtrusive to anyone who has zero interest in it.

Again on the consistency front, should be go landscape retaining last years idea. It did cause a problem for a couple of people's intended ideas, but the sooner we know this, the sooner people can start their personal search for their image to be submitted.

AnCatDubh

One other thing on the ratio side of things to assist those that may be less experienced with post processing crops and resizes - maybe some of us could volunteer to do a step by step tutorial for various packages - photoshop, elements, the gimp, windows picture manager.

Oh, and one last thing - i totally agree with not altering anyone's image once it hits you. Apart from your time if something wasn't right for any reason then we'd all know where to point the finger towards

Dublin_Gunner

Well on the aspect ratio side - you can decide which design you want, then request all pics be submitted at a certain max size, at the decided aspect ratio.

That way, its up to the photographers to crop their images for the best composition.

White - I like white. White is clean, it makes for legible text, and helps the images jump from the page.

On the text layout. Use different text sizes for image name / photographer / exif data, from largest to smallest in that order.

There seems to be a LOT of white space. White space is a good thing, but the text looks a bit lost.

I would also put the text on the outside of the pages, not towards the spine. Depending on how thick the book is and the spine, you may find that text becomes hard to read as it would be on a curved page at times.

It would always be legible at the outside of the page.

On the page shape / aspect. Square is good. I think square designs work well for photo's.

ThOnda

In fairness, I don't want any text with my picture. Technical details are irrelevant and somebody's "funny" photography tip would put me off from submitting picture.
However name and picture title could be there.

oscarBravo

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Well on the aspect ratio side - you can decide which design you want, then request all pics be submitted at a certain max size, at the decided aspect ratio.

That way, its up to the photographers to crop their images for the best composition.

Yeah, I might not have been clear:

The base aspect ratio I'm working on with the book design is 4:3. Pictures will fit best into the design at that aspect ratio. That said, any other aspect ratio will be catered for, by fitting the longest dimension into the space provided, and padding to fit.

In other words, if I decide (which I probably will) to include a 3:2 aspect ratio shot, I'll get one that looks like the first layouts I submitted. Anyone submitting a 4:3 will get a layout that looks like the later pictures.

I certainly don't want to suggest that anyone has to crop a photo to fit. A photo that isn't 4:3 will just be marginally smaller than one that is, is all.

Dublin_Gunner

Ah right. I do like the idea of white, and once your not leaving yourself too much work on the layout, I suppose accomodating other aspects might be workable.


I just did up a mock version of a design to look at, based on yours. Just an idea, rubbish it if you like!

This is a 210x210 layout, portrait image, 4:3, right hand page (no page number included)


ANd yes, I know the shot I threw in makes it looks a little Duran Duran or something!!

AnCatDubh

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

<snip>

I like the framing of the image along the axis

Dublin_Gunner

AnCatDubh wrote: »

I like the framing of the image along the axis

Thanks, I thought the framing just gave it a bit of structure, and something else to draw your eye around the page.

I just did one with the screen name in the bottom right hand corner, and it might look better there.



Here is another one

Ruu_Old

I don't care too much for the EXIF data myself.

Dublin_Gunner

Ruu wrote: »

I don't care too much for the EXIF data myself.

For oscarBravo designing this - I think thats going to have to go to a vote

whyulittle

Can I suggest that if anyone wants to do mock-ups, they download the Blurb software to do them. While they have plenty of templates, the templates are very restrictive about where you can put text. There is no point coming up with something Oscar can't put into the book.

melekalikimaka

whyulittle wrote: »

Can I suggest that if anyone wants to do mock-ups, they download the Blurb software to do them. While they have plenty of templates, the templates are very restrictive about where you can put text. There is no point coming up with something Oscar can't put into the book.

i agree... ots looking like it might be the site of choice

oscarBravo

Agreed on using Booksmart for mockups; it's what I used.

Also, my preference is for a minimalist layout, with a view to letting the pictures speak for themselves. Any text is a "FYI" sort of note, and the pictures should be by far and away the dominant design element, by the very nature of the project. For that very reason I'm not at all married to the idea of including the EXIF data; it was just a thought.

Fionn

i was involved in the design of the cover last year so i have all the graphics / fonts etc.

I think a pale cover would be really attractive - nice and clean! perhaps a very pale cream or a light, light grey instead of brilliant white.

Obviously the text and graphics would then have to be colour reversed again I would like to see them somewhat muted so as not to overpower the whole look of it.
If you need any assistance with the graphics or new ones etc. if theres a need, let me know.

Placebo

graphic designers view/2 cents

-initial creative is too plane, a simple divide at the bottom OR at the side where text will divide the space into a 2 tier system, the brain can easily concentrate on separated content, similar to websites where one can pick on invisible column/dividers if everything is placed under the same width/dimensions

-I think the axis make it look too busy and hectic, they slightly take away from the photo itself.

Dublin_Gunner

Blurb accept Indesign / quark / etc (I assume PDF files) and they provide some templates for indesign also.

No point restricting yourself to their software imo.

oscarBravo

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Blurb accept Indesign / quark / etc (I assume PDF files) and they provide some templates for indesign also.

No point restricting yourself to their software imo.

Let's be realistic about the amount of work involved, and the timescale. Booksmart offers some pretty good templates, and allows a 100-plus-page book to be designed with reasonable efficiency.

I don't have Quark or Indesign. I don't intend to get them for this project. I have other DTP software, but I've never used it to produce a PDF for a Blurb project, and we don't have time to do a proof print.

A pretty damn impressive book was produced last year with Booksmart. I aim to produce one to a comparable standard this year. If someone with real DTP skillz wants to step in now, or at an earlier stage next year, that's fine - but for this year, unless someone else takes over, it's most likely a Booksmart project.

Of course, if another printer offers us a superb deal and is prepared to hold my hand through the production of a PDF project, that's another story.

Dublin_Gunner

Oscar - don;t get me wrong, I wasn't trying to tell you how you should do it! Just offering some idea's is all - after all I have zero input into this anyway!

If the booksmart options work well enough for you, cool.

I'm a designer by trade myself, so can offer help if you want it. (not trying to steal the project from you though!).

If you want to decide on the design template, I can throw some of the pages together for you (in booksmart). Would help reduce your workload.

Up to yourself though

oscarBravo

No, that's cool, I understand. I don't mind having the project "stolen" from me; I volunteered rather than see this year's book not happen.

I'm not going to dictate a design (although I certainly have ideas about how I'd like it to look) - we'll arrive at a design by consensus.

sineadw

I agree with Placebo - the axis design is too strong but it needs a divider. Something more subtle.

Oh and please x 1000 for white! I'd love to see a reversal of last year's cover design. I think it'd fit very nicely with a theme of negatives

Oh and thanks Oscar B - the designs you've produced rock.

Dublin_Gunner

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, that's cool, I understand. I don't mind having the project "stolen" from me; I volunteered rather than see this year's book not happen.

I'm not going to dictate a design (although I certainly have ideas about how I'd like it to look) - we'll arrive at a design by consensus.

Well what I was thinking was, when the design has been decided upon - its really just a matter of popping the images in, and throwing in the text (i.e. image name, contributor).

So if/when thats decided, I could throw a few of the pages together for you.

After all, 2 people doing 50 pages each, is a lot less of a workload than one person doing 100...

Dodgykeeper

was there feedback given on last years design, if so was it positive/negative were there suggestions given, could we just follow last years design based on the feedback or are we going to go with a brand new design?

AnCatDubh

I wonder if we start with the basics to help everyone who will be submitting an image;

When we trawl our stock of images, are we looking for a landscape format or portrait format for the chosen image ?

Last year it was landscape.

Fionn

the general trend was for landscape, but i think it handled photographs in portrait pretty ok, anyway if the majority are going to be in landscape the book should go with that orientation!

I've taken a look at last years graphics and have basiclly reversed the colours.
I included the Boards photo logo in it's original livery for comparison purposes on the back page, personally i prefer everything to be muted somewhat - a little understated instead of screaming out from the page! so the logo is a bit strong for my liking!
however, if anyone has other ideas, i'd like to try them out.

anyway heres my first version of the front cover. apologies for it being so big

smelltheglove

If I can throw a spanner in the works.... Is everyone on for the same design of last year? I know I wasnt mad about it at the time and honestly I still am not mad about it, I just think it is too plain for a photography book.

Just me maybe.

pullandbang

Fionn wrote: »

anyway heres my first version of the front cover. apologies for it being so big

Looks great to me.

Thoie

I liked last year's format, and I love the idea of having a few year's books lined up neatly together on my bookshelves.

Like OscarBravo, I'm picturing them on my shelves already, and have one comment. If last year's cover was black, and this year's is white - where do we go from there colourwise for next year?

Would it be possible (and/or desireable) to take a "spoke" of a colour wheel, and work our way outwards towards white over the years?

Taking a wheel like this one (just the first image result), pick spoke 19 (for example), jump out from the centre one or two hops for this year's, another few hops for next year, and so on. After a few years you'd end up with a graduated row of books - something like this.


There had also been some mention last year of picking the best submission from last year and making it the cover pic for this year, but I'm not sure if this is the time and place to discuss that.

melekalikimaka

Thoie wrote: »

There had also been some mention last year of picking the best submission from last year and making it the cover pic for this year, but I'm not sure if this is the time and place to discuss that.

may seem cheesy...I dont know how folk would feel bout it... a photomosaic of all the submissions, making the boards logo?

Dublin_Gunner

melekalikimaka wrote: »

may seem cheesy...I dont know how folk would feel bout it... a photomosaic of all the submissions, making the boards logo?

Seriously, I was thinking the very same idea!!!

smelltheglove

I like the idea mele, we did toy last year with a mosaic style of photographers within the book if you recall, I did a mock up then but it was a plain rectangle rather than the boards logo.

I reckon it would be quite hard to do though.

Dublin_Gunner

smelltheglove wrote: »

I like the idea mele, we did toy last year with a mosaic style of photographers within the book if you recall, I did a mock up then but it was a plain rectangle rather than the boards logo.

I reckon it would be quite hard to do though.

Not at all, create the mosaic, with overlapping images. Then mask it with the shape of the boards logo - you dont have to show all the images, its just for effect.

Here is a quick example using a very low res boards logo for the mask, hence it looks sort of pants (background is the Stone Roses album cover).

melekalikimaka

i was thinking



ive done them before...simple to do

xia

Thoie wrote: »

I liked last year's format, and I love the idea of having a few year's books lined up neatly together on my bookshelves.

Like OscarBravo, I'm picturing them on my shelves already, and have one comment. If last year's cover was black, and this year's is white - where do we go from there colourwise for next year?

Would it be possible (and/or desireable) to take a "spoke" of a colour wheel, and work our way outwards towards white over the years?

Taking a wheel like this one (just the first image result), pick spoke 19 (for example), jump out from the centre one or two hops for this year's, another few hops for next year, and so on. ...

I was thinking as well, what colour could be next year then after black and white. So I like the idea of a colour wheel.
And in addition I thought, if people (me inclusive even thought I don't have last years) like to have different coloured books in the shelf and maybe some colours are difficult for pictures on them: Why not have the cover in one colour and the actual pages always in say black or white.
(I have no idea, if blurb or any other site would be able to do this!)

Fionn

i would think that the Boards logo in that format would not compliment the rest of the layout, as it exists at the moment. Plus the logistics of getting everyone's image in would be troublesome in the extreme!

But perhaps a different layout altogether for the front cover might be desireable.
If thats the case tho, i guess the consistency in the ANNUAL BOARDS PHOTOGRAPHY BOOK is lost straight away, so the identity thats obviously been achieved with last years book is gone and a new one will have to be introduced for each new edition. Another thing for everyone to agree with? There's good points and bad in this, but thats for the general membership to decide.
I think different colours for each successive year has merits.

anyway my personal opinion would be for a muted understated clean design!
exif data isn't a feature i would be too hot on.. I dont see it's a great benefit to the overall presentation of the pages. but anyhow i suppose i'm for retaining last years design/layout as far as practicable, my reasons for this would be, due to most people finding it acceptable last year and therefore allowing the project to progress to resolving more immediate problems. Time is beginning to run out!!

democrates

xia wrote: »

I was thinking as well, what colour could be next year then after black and white. So I like the idea of a colour wheel.
And in addition I thought, if people (me inclusive even thought I don't have last years) like to have different coloured books in the shelf and maybe some colours are difficult for pictures on them: Why not have the cover in one colour and the actual pages always in say black or white.
(I have no idea, if blurb or any other site would be able to do this!)

If a rainbow (ring out your great bells in victory) were adopted for the series then a red cover could symbolise this year of recession...

As for exif my inclination would be to keep the photo pages clean but have a tabular index on a back page with say page no., aperture, shutter speed, and iso for each photo. It's more work though and more to go wrong, particularly if some idiot does something like this...

Thoie

xia wrote: »

And in addition I thought, if people (me inclusive even thought I don't have last years) like to have different coloured books in the shelf and maybe some colours are difficult for pictures on them: Why not have the cover in one colour and the actual pages always in say black or white.
(I have no idea, if blurb or any other site would be able to do this!)

That's what I was thinking as well - keep the pages black or white, just change the cover colour. Blurb and other printers shouldn't have a problem with that iirc.

oscarBravo

Cover and page colours are completely independent. If we're talking about consistency for appearance on a bookshelf, the main things that are important are the page size and spine design.

smelltheglove

Another way to look at it is this, we want consistency throughout the books, true this can be done via spine and size but if we want consistency on the cover the task is simple, whatever we decide for the cover, picture, mosaic or plain as long as we position the logo in the same place they will always be consistent. Look at multi selling authors, example included, the consistency is maintained via the same text style and size and positioning on the fron covers.

Ok so in this link there are various publication styles but the most common publication as seen in the first five images shows what I mean.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=dan+brown

Ruu_Old

I liked last years design, maybe just switcharoo the colours, background white and text black (for the cover) would be good enough for me anyway. :P

dakar

Ruu wrote: »

I liked last years design, maybe just switcharoo the colours, background white and text black (for the cover) would be good enough for me anyway. :P

+1 works for me too. For both the cover and interior

sineadw

dakar wrote: »

+1 works for me too. For both the cover and interior

If I'm allowed two votes PLEASE stick to the simple design! To quote Da Vinci - "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication". Please please please... Not to sound condescending (and i know it will - so sorry) but you have graphic designers on the board - listen to them. They know what they're talking about.

The photos inside are visually striking enough. And we're not going on cover sales like conventional books.

I think white versus black for the second year, and if we want to break that, an RGB or CYMK theme for the next 3/4 years?

(going back into my hidey hole)

melekalikimaka

i think your right sinead... oscarbravo will have his say and i thinks his decision will be what we roll with

m_s_nixon

maybe we can have a plain cover with something a bit more eye catching on a dust cover? might be a way of keeping everyone happy but will add to the final cost of the book