Lisbon Treaty Debate on boards.ie

Scofflaw

w00t wrote: »

So if we vote no we are less off and in trouble economically?

If we vote yes we are better off?

Is it that simple, like you are insinuating?

What are you saying? There is now a lot more riding on the Treaty and Vote? The vote is on our relationship with Europe? So a No vote is not on the treaty but possibly on our relationship in Europe? You did say It's become something of a defining vote on Ireland's relationship with the EU.

Has it really? Is that just not spin politics on your behalf?

No, it's what I think to be the case. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my view of how a No and a Yes would pan out.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sink

w00t wrote: »

I don't know what to say. Is my sarcasim meter askew? Am I just thick? (Possibly)

PM me the number of your dealer? :D

It's a reference to the fact that everything is interconnected, nothing exists in a vacuum. To say the fate of the Lisbon treaty will have no effect outside of the direct amendments it makes, is quiet frankly stupid.

w00t

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, it's what I think to be the case. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my view of how a No and a Yes would pan out.

cordially,
Scofflaw

No probs.

I thought you had to back up your statements here and was looking forward to seeing your facts, backing up your statements.

I thought people claiming it is what they think and their views and that were not backed up with facts were asked to back their thoughts with facts rather than speculation on this site?

You can say voting No means we will be worse off economically but can't say more than it is what you think will pan out?

Scofflaw

w00t wrote: »

No probs.

I thought you had to back up your statements here and was looking forward to seeing your facts, backing up your statements.

I thought people claiming it is what they think and their views and that were not backed up with facts were asked to back their thoughts with facts rather than speculation on this site?

You can say voting No means we will be worse off economically but can't say more than it is what you think will pan out?

Well, I've explained it several times already, although I'll grant you I may not have explained to you specifically.

Here you go - from a post yesterday:

Scofflaw wrote:

...there's more to Ireland's relationship with Europe than the binary "in/out". We can be in Europe and have a bad working relationship with Europe - indeed, we could be out of Europe and have a good working relationship with Europe. We do need Europe, and we need it in the sense of needing a good working relationship with it - a No vote will not deliver that, even though it doesn't involve us having to hand in our membership card.

And that, in turn, is why it's "Yes for Jobs" - by itself another vacuous slogan, simplistic and overdone (it's a slogan!), but it reflects the genuine belief of the main political partners and most of civil society that of the two possible options at the vote, No will lead to a worse environment for jobs than a Yes. That doesn't mean a No vote will result in immediate mass unemployment, and it doesn't mean a Yes will result is a sudden return to full employment - it means that a Yes will create a better environment for job creation than a No vote. The factors that lead to that are complex, but would include (in my view) political paralysis and stagnation at the EU level, a damaged working relationship with the other member states, a probable swing away from solving problems in common and towards individual national action (which is worse for us, because we have a tiny national market and rely on exports), damaged international confidence in where Ireland is going with respect to the EU, a loss of international confidence in the EU itself, and so on.

cordially,
Scofflaw

w00t

sink wrote: »

It's a reference to the fact that everything is interconnected, nothing exists in a vacuum. To say the fate of the Lisbon treaty will have no effect outside of the direct amendments it makes, is quiet frankly stupid.

When I flick a ciggie butt out the window of my car, can a tree hear in the forest?


We should organise a Deep sesion of reading books more than 2 inches thick.

Or something.....

w00t

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, I've explained it several times already, although I'll grant you I may not have explained to you specifically.

Here you go - from a post yesterday:



cordially,
Scofflaw

Thanks for linking to your thoughts. But do you have any facts to back that up?

sink

w00t wrote: »

When I flick a ciggie butt out the window of my car, can a tree hear in the forest?


We should organise a Deep sesion of reading books more than 2 inches thick.

Or something.....

You may scoff all you like, but not factoring in side effects and unintended consequences is the road to ruin. In fact the current global economic crises and indeed most major **** ups can be laid squarely at the feet of such oversight.

K-9

w00t wrote: »

Thanks for linking to your thoughts. But do you have any facts to back that up?

It probably goes back to the goodwill thing and international reputation.

There are measures in the Treaty regarding Tourism, Energy and R & D that may create jobs, if our Govt. uses them correctly.

Of course, the reverse of this is: Can anybody prove nothing will change if we vote No? Absolutely nothing?

AFAIK, the UK's share of FDI has fallen since they rejected the Euro. Obviously not totally down to that alone.

Scofflaw

w00t wrote: »

Thanks for linking to your thoughts. But do you have any facts to back that up?

No, because it's in the future, you see. It's hard to get facts from the future, and even harder to get two sets of facts from two different alternate futures.

amused,
Scofflaw

w00t

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, because it's in the future, you see. It's hard to get facts from the future, and even harder to get two sets of facts from two different alternate futures.

amused,
Scofflaw

So you can't honestly, hand on heart, know what passing or not passing the Lisbon treaty means for Ireland.

You were only ever speculating.

evercloserunion

w00t wrote: »

So you can't honestly, hand on heart, know what passing or not passing the Lisbon treaty means for Ireland.

You were only ever speculating.

As opposed to those other people who can tell us for an absolute fact what the economic and political fallout will be from our vote.

sink

w00t wrote: »

So you can't honestly, hand on heart, know what passing or not passing the Lisbon treaty means for Ireland.

You were only ever speculating.

I think you fail to understand the nature of the future, it is unknowable. Any determination made about the future is always speculation.

Scofflaw

w00t wrote: »

So you can't honestly, hand on heart, know what passing or not passing the Lisbon treaty means for Ireland.

You were only ever speculating.

Heck, I can't even guarantee that the Sun will come up tomorrow. I've got good reasons for reckoning it probably will, but I'd have to admit it's just speculation really.

Everything about the Treaty is "speculation", because it hasn't happened. It's why we have a debate in the first place, and why we don't debate whether grass is green.

amused,
Scofflaw

w00t

evercloserunion wrote: »

As opposed to those other people who can tell us for an absolute fact what the economic and political fallout will be from our vote.

No. They were doing the same thing as Scoff. Looking into the future

Captain Furball

Yes voters.

Will you send your kids to war if Poland is attacked by Russia?

evercloserunion

w00t wrote: »

No. They were doing the same thing as Scoff. Looking into the future

Well given that the consequences of our vote happen, by definition, after the vote (ie in the future), and speculation as to future events is apparently worthless, surely anything we have been told by anyone about this Treaty, as well as anything we may conclude ourselves, is similarly worthless?

What exactly should be the basis on which we decide how to vote?

Captain Furball

Yes voters.
Why does an ordinary citizen need this treaty?

evercloserunion

Captain Furball wrote: »

Yes voters.

Will you send your kids to war if Poland is attacked by Russia?

I have no kids, and I wouldn't send them to war if I did. Why?

Eilywily

How can the bishops square two things with themselves - first of all the Pope asked for God to be included in the European constitution which this treaty really is. In the new testament Jesus sayes' if you deny me before men I will deny you before God'.
Also where does 'Thou shalt not kill' fit with the arms industry?

w00t

Scofflaw wrote: »

Heck, I can't even guarantee that the Sun will come up tomorrow. I've got good reasons for reckoning it probably will, but I'd have to admit it's just speculation really.

Everything about the Treaty is "speculation", because it hasn't happened. It's why we have a debate in the first place, and why we don't debate whether grass is green.

amused,
Scofflaw

Cheers for your comment.

You seemed to know a lot of facts regarding the treaty but I am glad to see you are just like me and you have no real idea, bar taking a stance and promoting that stance, of what the Lisbon treaty really means for our future.

K-9

Captain Furball wrote: »

Yes voters.

Will you send your kids to war if Poland is attacked by Russia?

Eh No though we'll have a chance to have a Referendum on that, if the situation arises.

K-9

Eilywily wrote: »

Also where does 'Thou shalt not kill' fit with the arms industry?

You'd need to ask the army on why they exist.

Scofflaw

w00t wrote: »

Cheers for your comment.

You seemed to know a lot of facts regarding the treaty but I am glad to see you are just like me and you have no real idea, bar taking a stance and promoting that stance, of what the Lisbon treaty really means for our future.

I'm pretty certain I've never claimed to be omniscient. Do you have a point, or are you trying to 'get' me in some obscure way?

After all, the only possible impersonal point I can see coming out of what you're doing is that you're about to say "vote No because we can't know for certain what the future holds" - a rationale which would keep all the voters in bed on polling day, just, you know, in case.

still amused,
Scofflaw

sink

Eilywily wrote: »

How can the bishops square two things with themselves - first of all the Pope asked for God to be included in the European constitution which this treaty really is. In the new testament Jesus sayes' if you deny me before men I will deny you before God'.
Also where does 'Thou shalt not kill' fit with the arms industry?

Because logically the absence of your particular religious faith in an international treaty means you deny Jesus.

Captain Furball

evercloserunion wrote: »

I have no kids, and I wouldn't send them to war if I did. Why?

I'm asking this question because if Lisbon passes and if the EU continues going in the direction it's going.Because that's the idea of Europe then you will have to send your kids to that war.

sink

Captain Furball wrote: »

I'm asking this question because if Lisbon passes and if the EU continues going in the direction it's going.Because that's the idea of Europe then you will have to send your kids to that war.

Will they be forced to go to war?

Captain Furball

K-9 wrote: »

Eh No though we'll have a chance to have a Referendum on that, if the situation arises.

We will be obliged to go though won't we?
After all we will be at the heart of Europe with our brothers and sisters?
If we choose not to go will be isolated like the way the yes side say if we don't ratify Lisbon?

Scofflaw

Captain Furball wrote: »

I'm asking this question because if Lisbon passes and if the EU continues going in the direction it's going.Because that's the idea of Europe then you will have to send your kids to that war.

From the guarantees:

SECTION C: SECURITY AND DEFENCE
The Union's action on the international scene is guided by the principles of democracy, the rule of law, the universality and indivisibility of human rights and fundamental freedoms, respect for human dignity, the principles of equality and solidarity, and respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter and international law.

The Union's common security and defence policy is an integral part of the common foreign and security policy and provides the Union with an operational capacity to undertake missions outside the Union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter.

It does not prejudice the security and defence policy of each Member State, including Ireland, or the obligations of any Member State.

The Treaty of Lisbon does not affect or prejudice Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality. It will be for Member States - including Ireland, acting in a spirit of solidarity and without prejudice to its traditional policy of military neutrality - to determine the nature of aid or assistance to be provided to a Member State which is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of armed aggression on its territory.

Any decision to move to a common defence will require a unanimous decision of the European Council. It would be a matter for the Member States, including Ireland, to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon and with their respective constitutional requirements, whether or not to adopt a common defence.

Nothing in this Section affects or prejudices the position or policy of any other Member State on security and defence.

It is also a matter for each Member State to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the Treaty of Lisbon and any domestic legal requirements, whether to participate in permanent structured cooperation or the European Defence Agency.

The Treaty of Lisbon does not provide for the creation of a European army or for conscription to any military formation.

It does not affect the right of Ireland or any other Member State to determine the nature and volume of its defence and security expenditure and the nature of its defence capabilities. It will be a matter for Ireland or any other Member State, to decide, in accordance with any domestic legal requirements, whether or not to participate in any military operation.

cordially,
and originally,
Scofflaw

Captain Furball

sink wrote: »

Will they be forced to go to war?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62265918&postcount=88

Captain Furball

Scofflaw wrote: »

From the guarantees:

cordially,
and originally,
Scofflaw

I'm sorry but that is null and void.
If nations don't follow internation law right now what makes you think thye will follow it in the future?
After all you cant see into the future can you?PLus if a nuclear blast happens that little document is gone out the window.