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Lisbon Treaty Debate on boards.ie

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    #92
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    We will be obliged to go though won't we?
    After all we will be at the heart of Europe with our brothers and sisters?
    If we choose not to go will be isolated like the way the yes side say if we don't ratify Lisbon?

    Ah come on, who is telling you this stuff? Engage logic and reason and stop the hysterics.

    PS. Anybody have facts on the religious make up of the EU?

    Why force the Pope on Protestants, Lutherans, Orthodox Church, Jews, Muslims etc.?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #93
    w00t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭w00t


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    I'm pretty certain I've never claimed to be omniscient. Do you have a point, or are you trying to 'get' me in some obscure way?

    After all, the only possible impersonal point I can see coming out of what you're doing is that you're about to say "vote No because we can't know for certain what the future holds" - a rationale which would keep all the voters in bed on polling day, just, you know, in case.

    still amused,
    Scofflaw

    I don't reall claiming you were omnisient. What ever that means.

    Please stick to the points raised and not personal deflections. I have questioned your facts and you have informed me they were more your thoughts. I question those thoughts being represented without factual links and you question me?


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    #94
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    We will be obliged to go though won't we?
    After all we will be at the heart of Europe with our brothers and sisters?
    If we choose not to go will be isolated like the way the yes side say if we don't ratify Lisbon?

    Would this be the same European countries that are dropping conscription?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #95
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62265918&postcount=88

    So because we agree reform the way the EU institutions function and to make more decisions in conjunction with our partners across Europe for our own economic benefit, logically we will have to follow them to war, I mean how could it not? I see clearly now thank you for opening my eyes.


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    #96
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    K-9 wrote: »
    Would this be the same European countries that are dropping conscription?
    Why do you think that is?Cause they have buddies now?


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    #97
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe

    A bit more on religion in the EU.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #98
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    sink wrote: »
    So because we agree reform the way the EU institutions function and to make more decisions in conjunction with our partners across Europe for our own economic benefit, logically we will have to follow them to war, I mean how could it not? I see clearly now thank you for opening my eyes.
    It's the same thing again.If you don't follow us your not at the heart of Europe and we will isolate you and you're economy.
    They will always have that hanging above us.


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    #99
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Why do you think that is?Cause they have buddies now?

    Does it matter what I think? Obviously not. You are convinced anyway and just respond to answers with questions.

    I think we should have the Swiss system of Neutrality myself.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #100
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    It's the same thing again.If you don't follow us your not at the heart of Europe and we will isolate you and you're economy.
    They will always have that hanging above us.

    Do you not see the gaping hole in that logic? My friends want me to join them in an investment club and I do so, but now if they ask me to murder someone how can I refuse?


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    #101
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Of course i care about what you think.
    I thought i answered your question.


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    #102
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    sink wrote: »
    Do you not see the gaping hole in that logic? My friends want me to join them in an investment club and I do so, but now if they ask me to murder someone how can I refuse?

    Do you think war is logical?
    Let just worry about our own country!


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    #103
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Of course i care about what you think.
    I thought i answered your question.

    Ironically, the Swiss system would mean we'd have to increase defence spending.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #104
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Do you think war is logical?

    Way to dodge the retort. In most case no I don't, but that's not addressing the issue.


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    #105
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    On topic, what is the situation?

    We have the YES side debating team (in abundance). How many for the NO side?


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    #106
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    sink wrote: »
    Way to dodge the retort. In most case no I don't, but that's not addressing the issue.
    No but you think everything is logic.
    Are you some computer science grad? I mean come on truth tables only can help you so much bud.

    :D


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    #107
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    No but you think everything is logic.
    Are you some computer science grad? I mean come on truth tables only can help you so much bud.

    Obviously you believe that agreeing to closer economic and political integration will inevitably lead to us bombing the **** out of something and invading. To justify this belief you say not everything is governed by logic and so you must be illogical to comprehend how this is possible. Well at least on that final point we agree.


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    #108
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    sink wrote: »
    Obviously you believe that agreeing to closer economic and political integration will inevitably lead to us bombing the **** out of something and invading. To justify this belief you say not everything is governed by logic and so you must be illogical to comprehend how this is possible. Well at least on that final point we agree.
    Incorrect.


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    #109
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    Incorrect.

    Right so obviously I've grossly misunderstood. What you're saying is the Lisbon treaty won't lead us to war and the EU is guided by rational logic.


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    #110
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    sink wrote: »
    Right so obviously I've grossly misunderstood. What you're saying is the Lisbon treaty won't lead us to war and the EU is guided by rational logic.
    I never said that we would be invading anyone.
    I said if poland was attacked we would be obliged to help them under this new lisbon treaty.
    Do you disagree?


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    #111
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    I never said that we would be invading anyone.
    I said if poland was attacked we would be obliged to help them under this new lisbon treaty.
    Do you disagree?

    We'd certainly have to do something, but what we do would be up to us. Are you saying we would have to go to war?

    regards,
    Scofflaw


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    #112
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62265950&postcount=91

    Why would we have to do something?


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    #113
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    I never said that we would be invading anyone.
    I said if poland was attacked we would be obliged to help them under this new lisbon treaty.
    Do you disagree?

    I disagree that's what you said. Let me quote your words for you.

    "Because that's the idea of Europe then you will have to send your kids to that war."

    You said we would have to go to war and the reality is we won't. We are obliged to help but this does not mean we will have to send troops or anything militarily related. Accepting refugees or even providing relief in the form of emergency food rations and tents for the displaced is helping and that is all we will be obliged to do under the terms of the Lisbon treaty.

    In my view that is the equivalent of offering to piss on your neighbours house if it is fire.


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    #114
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    On topic, what is the situation?

    We have the YES side debating team (in abundance). How many for the NO side?

    I'm just going to come out and say at this point, partially in the hopes of goading someone into stepping up, that they haven't got the balls because they know they'd be annihilated. The no campaign is built on misconceptions, lies and paranoia and it only works when you can pop in every few days and disappear when you've been proven wrong so you don't have to admit it

    Come on no voters, if you're so sure this treaty will be the worst thing to ever happen to this country, have the balls to defend your position in public with all eyes on you. The yes side is more than prepared because we have facts and evidence and precedent on our side and you, well you have Declan Ganley, Mary Lou and some posters with lies on them.


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    #115
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62265950&postcount=91

    Why would we have to do something?

    Article 42, section 7 of the TEU:
    7. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States
    shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance
    with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the
    security and defence policy of certain Member States.


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    #116
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    We'd certainly have to do something, but what we do would be up to us. Are you saying we would have to go to war?

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    We could send over a few ESB workers.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I'm just going to come out and say at this point, partially in the hopes of goading someone into stepping up, that they haven't got the balls because they know they'd be annihilated. The no campaign is built on misconceptions, lies and paranoia and it only works when you can pop in every few days and disappear when you've been proven wrong so you don't have to admit it

    Come on no voters, if you're so sure this treaty will be the worst thing to ever happen to this country, have the balls to defend your position in public with all eyes on you. The yes side is more than prepared because we have facts and evidence and precedent on our side and you, well you have Declan Ganley, Mary Lou and some posters with lies on them.

    Thank God a couple stepped forward.

    This oppression card is getting boring, especially when it comes to an invitation to debate.

    Imagine Ganley pulling this on RTE? Even Ganley wouldn't pull that card.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #117
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    sink wrote: »
    I disagree that's what you said. Let me quote your words for you.

    "Because that's the idea of Europe then you will have to send your kids to that war."

    You said we would have to go to war and the reality is we won't. We are obliged to help but this does not mean we will have to send troops or anything militarily related. Accepting refugees or even providing relief in the form of emergency food rations and tents for the displaced is helping and that is all we will be obliged to do under the terms of the Lisbon treaty.

    In my view that is the equivalent of offering to piss on your neighbours house if it is fire.

    He said she said...

    Look if you think we won't be going to war if all hell breaks loose you don't really believe that do you?Ya sure your not expected to do anything.Do you think the dutch or british should do all the fighting for you? Come on now get real.


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    #118
    Captain Furball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭Captain Furball


    Daftendirekt wrote: »
    Article 42, section 7 of the TEU:

    Would this be the same united nations who's member states sit down together after invading one another?
    Why bother listing this articles? No body follows them.


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    #119
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I'm just going to come out and say at this point, partially in the hopes of goading someone into stepping up, that they haven't got the balls because they know they'd be annihilated. The no campaign is built on misconceptions, lies and paranoia and it only works when you can pop in every few days and disappear when you've been proven wrong so you don't have to admit it

    Come on no voters, if you're so sure this treaty will be the worst thing to ever happen to this country, have the balls to defend your position in public with all eyes on you. The yes side is more than prepared because we have facts and evidence and precedent on our side and you, well you have Declan Ganley, Mary Lou and some posters with lies on them.

    In fairness, I wouldn't fancy going up against two mods of politics.


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    #120
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    He said she said...

    Look if you think we won't be going to war if all hell breaks loose you don't really believe that do you?Ya sure your not expected to do anything.Do you think the dutch or british should do all the fighting for you? Come on now get real.

    Are you saying we should step in?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #121
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Captain Furball wrote: »
    He said she said...

    Look if you think we won't be going to war if all hell breaks loose you don't really believe that do you?Ya sure your not expected to do anything.Do you think the dutch or british should do all the fighting for you? Come on now get real.

    So what are you asking me here? Under the terms of the Lisbon treaty we will have to do sfa if war breaks out in Europe, legally we can sit on our arse and send bunches of flowers and condolence cards.

    Whether that is moral or not is another argument, and if you want to know I think we would be cowards to just stand idly by.


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