Otto Skorzeny outside the Shelbourne Hotel

R.Dub.Fusilier

seen this on youtube and thought some might find it interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d2Bw327hBY

marcsignal

fixed that for you OP, thanks for posting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d2Bw327hBY

Morlar

There was also a story about Charlie Haughey looking for an autograph at a talk in Dublin during the 60's (not sure if that is true or not). He lived here peacefully after the war and bought a farm in Kildare.

marcsignal

I would have seig heiled at his funeral myself, if i'm totally honest

Morlar

found a link to the story here ;

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-shamrock-and-the-swastika-57978.html


But in June 1957, the Nazi who had made his name rescuing the Italian fascist leader Mussolini from a hilltop fortress, was made welcome in Dublin by such luminaries as Charles J Haughey.

A respectable gathering of Dublin middle-class folk assembled at a reception in Skorzeny's honour in Portmarnock Country Club. According to the Evening Press account of the event, "the ballroom was packed with representatives of various societies, professional men and, of course, several TDs".

Among the throng greeting one of Hitler's most notorious henchmen was the young TD, Charles Haughey.

In Irish press reports of the time, Skorzeny was portrayed as a glamorous cloak and dagger figure, the Third Reich's Scarlet Pimpernel. The tone in newspaper articles was one of admiration rather than repulsion.

Skorzeny was most famous for his 1943 commando raid on the castle in Italy where Mussolini was being held captive. Swooping down on the fortress in gliders with his accomplices, Skorzeny succeeded in getting away with the deposed dictator.
..............
..............
But a two-part documentary which begins on RTE television next week reveals how a surprising number of Nazis were allowed to make a home in Ireland.

The programme's presenter, Cathal O'Shannon, who met Skorzeny during one of his Irish visits, has delved into the movements of Nazis in and out of Ireland. He estimates that between 100 and 200 Nazis moved here.

O'Shannon (78) is himself a World War II veteran, having served in the RAF in Burma. As a Dublin teenager, he crossed the Border into the North and joined up.

"I came back in 1947, and at that time you held your head low if you had been in the British forces. At that time, there was a very strong anti-English element in Ireland that supported the Germans.

"Many of the leading Nazis who came here were not German. They were collaborators from other countries such as Belgium or Croatia. There was a lot of sympathy for them because many of them were Catholic and anti-communist."

FiSe

He was a big lad and still is a legend.

arnhem44

there was more than him that came,Albert Folen's of Folen's publishing always springs to mind for me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html

gizmo555

Another was Yann Goulet, the Breton nationalist who came to Ireland after the war and ended up obtaining Irish citizenship, becoming professor of sculpture at the RHA and a member of Aosdána. I remember often seeing him around town in Bray, where he lived for many years.

During the war, he was a collaborator with the Nazis and a leading member of the Breton fascist militia Bagadou Stourm. For this he was sentenced to death in absentia by a French court. You can search in vain for any mention of these activities on the Aosdána website . . .

R.Dub.Fusilier

my father-in-law met Otto Skorzeny in dublin and he also met Douglas Barder.

R.Dub.Fusilier

marcsignal wrote: »

fixed that for you OP, thanks for posting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d2Bw327hBY

thanks. havent sussed out how to put them up.

Tony EH

Morlar wrote: »

found a link to the story here ;

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-shamrock-and-the-swastika-57978.html


But in June 1957, the Nazi who had made his name...

Am I the only one who hates the way everything that was German in WWII has been reduced down to "nazi"?

Otto Skorzeny was a soldier.

...and that Cathal O'Shannon program was bloody awful. Filled with Hyperbole and barely researched accusation. The Folens family had some nonsense about Albert withdrawn I believe.

cyrusdvirus

Tony EH wrote: »

Am I the only one who hates the way everything that was German in WWII has been reduced down to "nazi"?

Otto Skorzeny was a soldier.

...and that Cathal O'Shannon program was bloody awful. Filled with Hyperbole and barely researched accusation. The Folens family had some nonsense about Albert withdrawn I believe.

Myself and a friend had a huge argument about that a while back. I was saying that Rommell was a good military commander and leader, my mates pov was he's a nazi, therefore he was bad.

Tony EH

Ridiculous isn't it?

Rommel wasn't even in the party. Not even nominally.

FiSe

It's easier to say that everything German was nazi during 1930-40. Even most of the soldiers of Waffen SS weren't members of Nazi party, despite the fact of the origin of SS.
From the other hand, was Skorzeny in the party?
It would make him Nazi, but first of all he was brilliant soldier and, obviously, excellent leader of his troops.

Tony EH

I'm unsure whether he was a party member. But, even so, simple membership wouldn't make him a "nazi" as such. There were many party members who held no truck with National Socialist politics and joined for various reasons.

gizmo555

Tony EH wrote: »

I'm unsure whether he was a party member. But, even so, simple membership wouldn't make him a "nazi" as such. There were many party members who held no truck with National Socialist politics and joined for various reasons.

Skorzeny was a committed and enthusiastic Nazi, having joined the party as far back as 1933.

He may have been a good soldier, but I find the attempts in this thread to whitewash this aspect of his character nauseating.

Tony EH

You get queasy very easily then.

R.Dub.Fusilier

gizmo555 wrote: »

Skorzeny was a committed and enthusiastic Nazi, having joined the party as far back as 1933.

He may have been a good soldier, but I find the attempts in this thread to whitewash this aspect of his character nauseating.

Otto Skorzeny was a member of the NSDAP but i can't remember what year he joined. he was a very fine soldier and although put on trial after the war he was found innocent of charges made . he also had help from members of the US military with his trial . weather he was a committed 'nazi' is debatable.

if i remember rightly Oscar Schindler was a very early member of the 'nazi' party and proudly wore a gold NSDAP badge to show this and exploited his workers to make himself a millionaire .

Tony EH

I looked it up. He became a member of the Austrian Nazi party in 1931 apparently.

But as you say, whether he was commited to National Socialist ideals (whatever that meant to the individual)...is another story.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Tony EH wrote: »

I looked it up. He became a member of the Austrian Nazi party in 1931 apparently.

But as you say, whether he was commited to National Socialist ideals (whatever that meant to the individual)...is another story.

i have read a few books by him and some about him and the 'nazi' thing didn't realy come into it . his exploits rival those of the SAS during WW2 .

Fuinseog

Morlar wrote: »

There was also a story about Charlie Haughey looking for an autograph at a talk in Dublin during the 60's (not sure if that is true or not). He lived here peacefully after the war and bought a farm in Kildare.

why did he leave ireland?
that scut Cathal Shannon, who served in the RAF, tried to blacken the man's name in a documentary about Nazis in Ireland.

Tony EH

He got cancer in the 70's I believe and Ireland wasn't the place to be with that, so he went back to Germany for surgery and then on to Spain, where he died in 1975.

Fratton Fred

gizmo555 wrote: »

Skorzeny was a committed and enthusiastic Nazi, having joined the party as far back as 1933.

He may have been a good soldier, but I find the attempts in this thread to whitewash this aspect of his character nauseating.

surely the fact that he carried out Hitler's orders with such enthusiasm makes his character questionable. Sure, he was an outstanding soldier, but the hero worship is a bit distasteful tbh.

Tony EH

Fratton Fred wrote: »

surely the fact that he carried out Hitler's orders with such enthusiasm makes his character questionable...

Are you serious?

FiSe

In my view, member of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei is a Nazi it's the same as member of Communist Party is a Communist.
Wether such and such member joined the party because he believed in the ideals of the party or because for profit and personal advantages is another thing.
Otto Skorzeny was a Nazi and excellent soldier too. He's a legend, but that's just my opinion.

Tony EH

There have been plenty of people in both parties, that had joined but didn't really have Communist or National Socialist ideals.

Fuinseog

marcsignal wrote: »

I would have seig heiled at his funeral myself, if i'm totally honest

I see you use a picture from sven hassel. there is a rumour going around that he was never in a lot of places he wrote about. it is said that he knew a lot of wikinger and wrote their experience. according his books he was on practically every front.

Fuinseog

Fratton Fred wrote: »

surely the fact that he carried out Hitler's orders with such enthusiasm makes his character questionable. Sure, he was an outstanding soldier, but the hero worship is a bit distasteful tbh.

i see it the same with The RAF who firebombed Germany, murdered thousands of civilans (bloody Nahzis!) and still boast about their 'heroic' exploits. skorzeny fought soldiers in fair combat. he didn't murder civilians like the RAF. he served his country(austria was part of the Reich) with distinction and was an extraordinary commando.

some people have a gripe with him because he rounded up the traitors after the failed July bomb plot, but that was doing his duty.

does anyone know what song they were singing at his requiem mass? i couldn't hear it properly.

FiSe

It's some Spanish thingy

Fratton Fred

Tony EH wrote: »

Are you serious?

yes

He was a Nazi, he worked alongside the Gestapo, he tried to keep Italy in the war by rescuing Mussolini, he kidnapped Mikos Horthy's son to stop Hungary surrendering to Russia, in short, he carried out Hitler's special missions.

Fuinseog wrote: »

i see it the same with The RAF who firebombed Germany, murdered thousands of civilans (bloody Nahzis!) and still boast about their 'heroic' exploits. skorzeny fought soldiers in fair combat. he didn't murder civilians like the RAF. he served his country(austria was part of the Reich) with distinction and was an extraordinary commando.

some people have a gripe with him because he rounded up the traitors after the failed July bomb plot, but that was doing his duty.

does anyone know what song they were singing at his requiem mass? i couldn't hear it properly.

I would guess that most people have a gripe with him because he was an active part of a regime that started a war in which tens of millions of people were killed.

OK, he was a great soldier, but so was Cromwell....

still, he killed a few Brits so he must be good eh:rolleyes:

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OK, he was a great soldier, but so was Cromwell....

No one here (except you) is saying Cromwell was a great soldier.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

still, he killed a few Brits so he must be good eh:rolleyes

I don't think that's accurate or adds much to the thread.

gizmo555

Fuinseog wrote: »

he served his country(austria was part of the Reich)

On the contrary, he was a traitor to his country. He participated actively in the coup d'état which initiated the Anschluss or annexation of Austria by Germany in 1938. 62,000 of his Jewish fellow Austrians died in the Holocaust. Their persecution began with a pogrom on the very day of the Anschluss which Skorzeny helped bring about.

The man was a supremely accomplished and courageous soldier. That does not take away from or excuse the fact that he was also fascist scum.

Tony EH

Oh for ****'s sake....get off the bleedin high horse.

:rolleyes:

FiSe

gizmo555 wrote: »

The man was a supremely accomplished and courageous soldier. That does not take away from or excuse the fact that he was also fascist scum.

No he wasn't. Not a fascist. Not a Communist. He was a Nazi.
Although all three regimes - Nazism, Fascism and Communism are very close together.

R.Dub.Fusilier

FiSe wrote: »

No he wasn't. Not a fascist. Not a Communist. He was a Nazi.

i was going to say a similar thing.i'm not sure if he was a dedicated 'nazi'. an honest patriot maybe. Skorzeny was a soldier and fought soldiers. he didnt guard camps and didnt kill prisoners . his taticts were the same as the British SAS and the Rangers from the USA. a brilliant soldier and a brilliant leader of men.

i am not an apolagist for the third reich but those who slag off the third reich rarely slag off the Allies or their war crimes.what about the 60 million killed by communists . the jews were not the only ones to die in the war.

gizmo555

FiSe wrote: »

No he wasn't. Not a fascist. Not a Communist. He was a Nazi.

OK. Nazi scum then. Is that better?

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

i was going to say a similar thing.i'm not sure if he was a dedicated 'nazi'.

If you're not sure, it can only be because you haven't bothered to find out. There is plenty of information available. The facts are that Skorzeny joined the Nazi party in the early 30s and was active in the party from then on. He only joined the military in 1939 on the outbreak of war. He wanted to be a pilot, but was rejected by the Luftwaffe, so he joined the SS instead. Not the army, the SS and not just any SS unit, but the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, Hitler's personal bodyguard regiment. Speaks for itself . . .

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

an honest patriot maybe.

He helped engineer the takeover of his country by another and helped to involve it in a disastrous war of aggression which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of his fellow Austrians. Some patriot!

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

Skorzeny was a soldier and fought soldiers. he didnt guard camps and didnt kill prisoners . his taticts were the same as the British SAS and the Rangers from the USA. a brilliant soldier and a brilliant leader of men.

So what? Does his brilliance as a soldier excuse the criminal cause for which he fought? He was not a career soldier who got caught up in the war, he was first and foremost a Nazi who helped bring about the war in the first place.

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

i am not an apolagist for the third reich

It certainly seems to me that you are . . .

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

but those who slag off the third reich rarely slag off the Allies or their war crimes.what about the 60 million killed by communists .

Did your mother never tell you two wrongs don't make a right?

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

the jews were not the only ones to die in the war.

No indeed. Millions of German civilians and soldiers died in the war that the Nazis brought about. Millions more were maimed, like the father of my German sister-in-law, who was a 6 year old boy in the year that Hitler came to power and Skorzeny joined the Austrian Nazi party. Her father was conscripted towards the end of the war and still carries the disability he acquired in combat. I can assure you he would be incredulous at the respect being shown to and excuses being made here for scum like Skorzeny.

R.Dub.Fusilier

i said i'm not sure about him being a comitted nazi because imo he wasnt. i have read a few books about os and know quite a bit about him. i dont need the inter net to educate myself. any point of view can be proved on the net. os wasnt convicted of war crimes after the war so he was just doing his patriotic duty. any war criminals should face justice weather its from WW2 to bloody sunday. but you have a personal connection to the 3rd reich and your view is of course understandable. i like reading about Otto Skorzeny and if a stranger on the internet doesnt like that fact it doesnt realy bother me. but you shouldnt realy get so upset about it . forums are just the opinions of random strangers and most ,like myself, dont mean any offence.

FiSe

A bit of OT: In the 30's vast majority of Austrians felt to be German, so you have Anschluss or merging of Austria with Germany, not occupation of Austria by Germany.
It's interesting reading about how the Austrians behaved just after Anschluss too...

gizmo555

FiSe wrote: »

A bit of OT: In the 30's vast majority of Austrians felt to be German, so you have Anschluss or merging of Austria with Germany, not occupation of Austria by Germany.
It's interesting reading about how the Austrians behaved just after Anschluss too...

It is true that there was widespread support for Anschluss, but to say there was a majority in favour is speculative. The Austrian government had committed to a referendum to decide the issue. However, the Nazis were not prepared to wait for this, staging a coup - in which Skorzeny particpated - and then invading. The following month they held their own referendum which purported to show more than 99% support for Anschluss. Not even Mugabe would fix a poll that blatantly. At any rate, the fact that they wouldn't wait for the referendum would seem to show they were not certain it would be carried.

The issue is not OT, in that it bears directly on whether Skorzeny was a "patriot". Not by any stretch of the imagination, in my opinion . . .

Tony EH

It's not speculation in any way, shape, or form. The vast majority of Austrians were in favor of joining the greater Reich and many didn't care one way or another. In fact, the idea of linking the countries went back to the 1800's. Austrians spoke German, they felt German. It seemed natural enough for a union to exist between the two Nations.

To be fair, Schuschnigg wanted to keep separate and even forbade people under 24 a chance to vote in a plebiscite. Of course, his own position politically was under threat, if the union was to go ahead.

This weak idea that Austria was somehow a "victim" of Nazi aggression only came about after the war, when they wanted to desperately separate themselves from the obvious history that was going to be written about the Germans.

Tony EH

...and Skorzeny's role in the Anschluss was minor. He didn't "engineer" anything at all. In fact, his largest impact was his call for fair treatment of the fervently anti-nazi Wilhelm Miklas.

citizen_p

he was charged with using enemy uniforms in the battle of the bulge.....
the allies did it also on D Day.


h was a member of the nazi party but i dont remember anything said about him killing pows or mass murder. (off top of my head)

Fratton Fred

Was he on the side of good or bad?

He ended up being a great commander and a great soldier, bit at the end of the day, he was on the wrong side.

McArmalite

Mousey- wrote: »

he was charged with using enemy uniforms in the battle of the bulge.....
the allies did it also on D Day.


h was a member of the nazi party but i dont remember anything said about him killing pows or mass murder. (off top of my head)

" h was a member of the nazi party " So actually and bizarrely was Oskar Schindler.

marcsignal

McArmalite wrote: »

" h was a member of the nazi party " So actually and bizarrely was Oskar Schindler.

True, and although Claus von Stauffenberg was not a party member, his support for Hitler didn't wane until late 1942, when things started to go pear shaped.

He will always be remembered for the 1944 bomb plot to kill Hitler, but I often wonder which side of the fence he would have been on had Germany suceeded in Russia. It was events there that apparently swayed him in the end.

gizmo555

marcsignal wrote: »

True, and although Claus von Stauffenberg was not a party member, his support for Hitler didn't wane until late 1942, when things started to go pear shaped.

Von Stauffenberg and those like him, who only turned against Hitler when it became clear they had backed a loser, were moral pygmies compared to people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, or Sophie and Hans Scholl.

gizmo555

Tony EH wrote: »

It's not speculation in any way, shape, or form. The vast majority of Austrians were in favor of joining the greater Reich

Since a free and fair referendum was never run, this is pure speculation. All we do know is that the Austrian chancellor was confident that a majority of voters aged over 24 were against Anschluss and the Nazis apparently concurred with his view, since they invaded before the referendum planned on this basis could take place. They then ran a completely bogus referendum of their own, from which about 10% of voters were excluded, mainly those with left-wing political sympathies and Jews. If a "vast majority" was in favour of Anschluss, why weren't the Nazis confident enough to just hold a legitimate referendum?

Tony EH wrote: »

and Skorzeny's role in the Anschluss was minor. He didn't "engineer" anything at all. In fact, his largest impact was his call for fair treatment of the fervently anti-nazi Wilhelm Miklas.

Miklas was the Austrian president. Skorzeny's role was to place him under effective house arrest and protect him from other hotter headed and less calculating Austrian Nazis, who hated Miklas and might have murdered him. It wouldn't have looked too well if the party supposedly taking power by popular acclamation assasinated the head of state in the process. They also needed Miklas to give the Anschluss a veneer of legitimacy since he formally appointed the Chancellor, in much the same way as our President formally presents the Taoiseach with the seal of office.

marcsignal

gizmo555 wrote: »

Von Stauffenberg and those like him, who only turned against Hitler when it became clear they had backed a loser, were moral pygmies compared to people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, or Sophie and Hans Scholl.

I agree, but I think also it's important to remain cognisant of the fact, that we're all reflecting here in the context of the Allied victory. Consider what, and who, we would be pontificating about, had the Germans won (presuming for a moment that pontification would be allowed:D)

But seriously, that considered, we'd be discussing Russian Atrocities under Stalin against Ukranians and Poles and the rest, American Concentration camps for Japanese citizens in the U.S. British emergency order 18B arresting all prominent Fascists in Britain, and British Concentration Camps in Africa during the Crimean and Boer Wars, the Atrocities of SAS and Commando units, American Racial segregation in the U.S. and in the U.S. Army...... The list goes on

Skorzeny's memory and reputation will always be tainted because he was on the side that lost the war.

Tony EH

gizmo555 wrote: »

Since a free and fair referendum was never run, this is pure speculation. All we do know is that the Austrian chancellor was confident that a majority of voters aged over 24 were against Anschluss and the Nazis apparently concurred with his view, since they invaded before the referendum planned on this basis could take place. They then ran a completely bogus referendum of their own, from which about 10% of voters were excluded, mainly those with left-wing political sympathies and Jews. If a "vast majority" was in favour of Anschluss, why weren't the Nazis confident enough to just hold a legitimate referendum?

Well, then we're both speculating. But the general tone of the time was that most Austrians had no problem with a union with Germany and it's the general consensus among historians too.

It could be said that Schuschnigg's restrictive "referendum" was about as legtimate as the later Nazi one (who BTW, didn't have an age restriction on voters). So, if one side's referendum wasn't "free & fair", neither was the other. Whitewashing one side in favor of the other is simple bias.

I also think that it's obvious why the Jews were restricted in the vote, but I think your 10% reckoning is exaggerated and it's the first I've heard of it. Either way, it's probably less than Schuschnigg's restrictions in his attempt to engineer a favorable outcome to HIS political view.

Besides, after the union was complete, there was no outrage or objection amongst Austrians in general and in fact, Austria became an enthusiastic supporter of the union.

Again, I'll state that this "victim" status that some so desperately want to hang around Austria's neck is an extremely weak proposition and it simply doesn't hold any water.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Miklas was the Austrian president. Skorzeny's role was to place him under effective house arrest and protect him from other hotter headed and less calculating Austrian Nazis, who hated Miklas and might have murdered him. It wouldn't have looked too well if the party supposedly taking power by popular acclamation assasinated the head of state in the process. They also needed Miklas to give the Anschluss a veneer of legitimacy since he formally appointed the Chancellor, in much the same way as our President formally presents the Taoiseach with the seal of office.

Exactly, but this is hardly Skorzeny "engineering" anything, is it? That was his sole role in the Anschluss. In other words, he was small potatoes, carried along by events...not defining them, in the fashion you suggest.

imme

marcsignal wrote: »

I would have seig heiled at his funeral myself, if i'm totally honest

:eek:
why?
because he was a lucky guy who undertook the rescue of Mussolini or because he was unlucky and failed to blow up the bridge at Remagen, over the Rhine, thus enabling thousands of US troops to make their way into Germany. The guy was an SS officer you know.

FiSe

So he was an SS officer, like 100's others.

If we take away the name Scorzeny and will change it to, let's say Wittmann, Dietrich, Degrelle, Ancāns... would that make any difference?
Being a member of the Waffen SS does not necessary mean that you are a war criminal /although the organization itself was proclaimed as a criminal/ or annihilator of 'untermenschen' or die-hard Nazi.
Some frontline SS units have their origin in normal WH formations.