The Treaty of Lisbon ... Some Inconvenient Truths!

sub-x

Please if you are in or around Dublin tomorrow,try and get along to this event,you will not be disappointed

The Treaty of Lisbon ... Some Inconvenient Truths!
Ian R Crane
Tuesday 22nd & Wednesday 23rd September
8pm - The Clarion Hotel, Liffey Valley,Dublin,Ireland
Free Admission

The European Union is imposing a one-size-fits-all set of regulations on its 27 member states. The EU is not so much about free trade as it is about absolute control. The outcome of the Irish Referendum may well result in all the 111,000 EU laws becoming effective by as early as January 2010, If this should be the case, Europe will rapidly morph into a massive corporate controlled Police State.

Indeed, the EU is increasingly favouring the interests of big business over those of its own citizens; unless this situation is reversed and European citizens are given the right to be directly involved in political decision-making, the European political system will rapidly degenerate into a dictatorship where democracy, freedom of choice and the privacy rights of individuals are routinely violated.

Following a 25 year career in International Oilfield Services, Ian R Crane has been researching the globalist agenda for the past decade and has seen many of his predictions realised. Including his prediction in early 2007 that the global financial and property markets were about to be collapsed … deliberately!

Ian says, “Having struggled for over 300 years to gain independence from British rule, it is perhaps a little ironic that Irish Sovreignty is about to handed over to Brussels on a ballot paper! Indeed, the future of sovereign nations retaining ability for self-determination may well be determined by the outcome of the forthcoming Irish Referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon.”

Jim Corr says, " If the Irish people vote 'NO' for a second time, then legally, according to its own rules, Brussels will not be able to implement the Treaty. However, if the Irish people vote 'YES', then the fate of, and the inevitable demise of the Nation States of Europe will be sealed. There will then be no more serious obstacles left to Federalisation. The long dreamed of (by the Federalists that is) United States of Europe will become a reality."

K-9

sub-x wrote: »

Jim Corr says, " If the Irish people vote 'NO' for a second time, then legally, according to its own rules, Brussels will not be able to implement the Treaty.

Why would we trust them if we vote No?

samson09

Damn, if I knew about this earlier I would have tried to make it . If we vote yes I'll seriously consider a move to South America. Maybe Jim Corr will give me a spin in his plane.

Seriously though, if Lisbon is passed and things get as bad as some say it will, I reckon people will be pushed so much that it will lead to a revolution across the entire EU. Imagine if Brussels start enforcing laws that the majority of the Irish people are unhappy about and are told to f*ck up and shut up. There'll be pitchforks and hurleys on the street and mix in a few pints of guinness with that and you have a force that hasnt been seen since the days of Genghis Khan.

This whole Lisbon disaster might actually work out quite well if its voted in. People need to be slowly acclimated to tyranny and this thing is moving too fast. Whatever happens I just dont see things working out for these tosspots. Wishful thinking perhaps?

the_dark_side

K-9 wrote: »

Why would we trust them if we vote No?

Hi, not sure what this question means K-9, could you ellaborate?

K-9

the_dark_side wrote: »

Hi, not sure what this question means K-9, could you ellaborate?

Why would they rely such little things like legalities? Sure the ECJ will just interpret whatever they want anyway.

meglome

sub-x wrote: »

Jim Corr says, " If the Irish people vote 'NO' for a second time, then legally, according to its own rules, Brussels will not be able to implement the Treaty. However, if the Irish people vote 'YES', then the fate of, and the inevitable demise of the Nation States of Europe will be sealed. There will then be no more serious obstacles left to Federalisation. The long dreamed of (by the Federalists that is) United States of Europe will become a reality."

Strange the German constitutional court found there was nothing federalist in the Lisbon treaty. Sure Jim Corr is bound to know more than some court full of Germany's job judges.

Maybe some of you, I dunno, could just read the Lisbon treaty and then you'd know this guys opinions are bull****.

Black Uhlan

meglome wrote: »

Strange the German constitutional court found there was nothing federalist in the Lisbon treaty.

You find it strange that one of the nations that stands to gain influence passed this? Gimme a break.

meglome wrote: »

Sure Jim Corr is bound to know more than some court full of Germany's job judges.

No, but what he would know if what is to be an IRISH person in IRELAND more than a court full of Germany's top judges.

meglome wrote: »

Maybe some of you, I dunno, could just read the Lisbon treaty and then you'd know this guys opinions are bull****.

Do you know how arrogant it is to assume that just because someone reaches an alternative conslusion to you that they are somehow misinformed or delusional ("bull****").

The Lisbon Treaty simplified for me comes down to a matter of opinion for me. Brussels will start to make a lot more decisions in our lives in existing and new areas and it just comes down to what side of the fence you are on as to whether you think that this is a good thing or not.

And haven't you already been warned about making assumptions about posters in this forum before regarding not reading the treaty?

uprising

Copy and pasted from an anti lisbon site,

Within the next few weeks, we have coming, the most important vote of our lives. I will outline my main concerns in relation to this 2nd referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.




Guarantees: Not worth the paper they're written on. Denmark's stronger protocol promises after their Maastrict no vote have since been over ruled and nullified by the European Court of Justice!


Article 48: The self amending clause or escalator clause. Allows the EU to escalate it's power into new areas WITHOUT coming back to the people for a vote on any changes. So what we have in fact is a treaty that is not set in stone like our own constitution. It is a flexible treaty free to be amended by the EU elite as they wish. This leaves our country and the other individual member states extremely vulnerable! Would you sign a contract on a deal with someone who could legally adjust that contract to favour themselves AFTER you'd signed it ?


Article 2 ECFR: Under Lisbon, The European Charter of Fundamental Rights AND the European Charter of Human Rights become legally binding. Both of those charters are intertwined and will merge.
Article 2 ECFR "Nobody shall be condemned to death, everybody has a right to life" Article 2 protocol 6 of the ECHR which will merge with the ECFR, "A state may make provision for the death penalty in times of war or imminent threat of war". There you have a 'backdoor' whereby the main article can be diluted or negated entirely and this is typical of the deception we will find upon study of the treaty and it's additional charters. Who's to say we are under threat of war, could we trust Tony B'liar who led his nation into war under false pretences and who is in the running to be SELECTED, not elected, as the president of the EU ?




As was stated by our own Charlie McCreevy: 95% of Europeans would vote no to this treaty if given the chance. We the people of this country are their voice, and we owe it to them to make the right decision on Oct. 2nd.


Hasn't the EU been good for Ireland ? We gave the EU 200 Billion worth of our fishing stock. The fishing industry has been decimated as a result. Now our farming industry is under attack, where our farmers are being forced because of EU law to sell milk cheaper than cost, while at the same time becoming ever increasingly crippled under EU bureaucracy. With this pattern in mind would you trust the EU with the Irish economy and our Government ?


I'm all for co-operation with our European neighbours, I just don't want them telling us what to do. I am for co-operation, not domination!




Creeping EU Tip-Toe Totalitarianism: Have you noticed how with each successive EU treaty it has gradually moved from economic integration into political integration ? Watch how civil liberties globally are being incrementally eroded due to this fraudulent 'War of Terror" and now via Phoney Environmentalism. Visit my web-site for more on this. Is it democracy to keep coming back to the people with the same treaty that we've already voted on ? Is it democracy not to allow the individual member states a referendum on something so crucially important to their futures and the futures of their children's children ? Was it democracy for most individual member states to ratify the treaty against the wishes of the vast majority of their own people even though it was ILLEGAL for them to do so due to We the People of Ireland having already voted this treaty down ?


Where is this progressing towards ? The agenda is World Government, for the many of us that are awake to see, which is clearly outlined in the books written by the elite and their insiders, books they don't count on the general population reading. World Government would not be a bad thing if Angels were going to run it, but the people striving for this are anything but. We are NOT ready for World Government yet, not by a long shot. Again more on this on my web-site.


What this is simply about is POWER going into yet fewer and fewer hands, and those that forget history are doomed to repeat it, because Power Corrupts and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely!




This progression MUST be stopped dead in it's tracks, and we can help scupper this agenda by voting NO on the 2nd of October.


There is no question of Ireland being sidelined or pushed out of the EU or the euro-currency if we stand by our No to Lisbon. As Ireland’s EU Commissioner Charlie mccreevy said last December : “There is no provision in the existing treaties to isolate anybody. There is no provision to throw out anybody, unless unanimously all the existing members of the club agreed to throw you out. And I doubt, now or in the future, any Irish Government is going to unanimously agree to throw them selves out.”

meglome

Black Uhlan wrote: »

You find it strange that one of the nations that stands to gain influence passed this? Gimme a break.

What real influence does Germany get from Lisbon?

Black Uhlan wrote: »

No, but what he would know if what is to be an IRISH person in IRELAND more than a court full of Germany's top judges.

The Lisbon treaty is a detailed legal document. So if there's any question about it then the EU's top Judges will be the perfect to sort that out. Does Jim Corr have some legal training now?

Black Uhlan wrote: »

Do you know how arrogant it is to assume that just because someone reaches an alternative conslusion to you that they are somehow misinformed or delusional ("bull****").

He can believe in anything he likes. But as I keep saying the Lisbon treaty is a detailed legal document so anyone can read what's in it. So his opinion is irrelevant as all of can can see for ourselves. I've had a read and I think he's wrong.

Black Uhlan wrote: »

The Lisbon Treaty simplified for me comes down to a matter of opinion for me. Brussels will start to make a lot more decisions in our lives in existing and new areas and it just comes down to what side of the fence you are on as to whether you think that this is a good thing or not.

Sigh... it's a detailed lagal document. So I suppose if you were buying a house and they gave you a legal contract you would think it was just a matter of opinion too?

Black Uhlan wrote: »

And haven't you already been warned about making assumptions about posters in this forum before regarding not reading the treaty?

So you're telling me not to make assumptions while making lot's of assumptions about a treaty you haven't read?

meglome

uprising wrote: »

Copy and pasted from an anti lisbon site,

I dunno, I suppose you could go to the independent referendum commission site, since their job is to give us unbiased opinion.

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie

nullzero

meglome wrote: »

I dunno, I suppose you could go to the independent referendum commission site, since their job is to give us unbiased opinion.

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie

Do you even understand the futility of citing the referendum commission as a bastion of honesty on a forum which deals solely with conspiracy theories?
You've been here trying to enlighten us stupid Conspiracy nuts for long enough to know that conspracy nuts wouldn't trust something like the referendum commission to tell the truth about the Lisbon treaty which conspiracy nuts see as a cog on the New World Order machine. It is after all a state institution and therefore in the case of a conspiracy surrounding the Lisbon treaty it would follow that it would be a vital part of said conspiracy.

Mahatma coat

Simple Question Meglome

Article 48: The self amending clause or escalator clause. Allows the EU to escalate it's power into new areas WITHOUT coming back to the people for a vote on any changes. So what we have in fact is a treaty that is not set in stone like our own constitution. It is a flexible treaty free to be amended by the EU elite as they wish.

This leaves our country and the other individual member states extremely vulnerable! Would you sign a contract on a deal with someone who could legally adjust that contract to favour themselves AFTER you'd signed it ?

Is this true???

and by that I mean that once the treaty is ratified then there ya go thats it all the EU Laws are set in stone exactly as outlined in the treaty and unalterable without Referenda, or these are just a first draft of a lot of the laws that will be enacted without consultation once we greenlight the new EUracracy.

uprising

meglome wrote: »

I dunno, I suppose you could go to the independent referendum commission site, since their job is to give us unbiased opinion.

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie

Are you having a joke?,

Frank Clarke
Chairman
Referendum Commission


Mr Justice Frank Clarke, oh yea he's very independant he even says it at the start.
http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v-040909-lisbon-06m32s-morningireland.mp3
At 3:00 he says "I think the simple answer is we can be black and white about some thing's BUT there are some things that are matters of legal judgement or even matter's that are DIFFICULT LEGAL QUESTIONS where we really don't feel we could honestly say this is certainly going to be decided in a particular way by the european court"

So even he "The independant Referendum Commission Chairman" doesn't know what will come of it, just like the rest of us.

He's a very independant eliteist...
Judges are appointed by the President. However, as with almost all the President's constitutional powers, these appointments are made under "the advice of the Government". In practice, this means that the judges are nominated by the government and automatically approved by the President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Court_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

EDIT: And by the way, WHO NOMINATED HIM?????????, A government party trying to stuff a yes vote down our throats maybe??

meglome

nullzero wrote: »

Do you even understand the futility of citing the referendum commission as a bastion of honesty on a forum which deals solely with conspiracy theories?
You've been here trying to enlighten us stupid Conspiracy nuts for long enough to know that conspracy nuts wouldn't trust something like the referendum commission to tell the truth about the Lisbon treaty which conspiracy nuts see as a cog on the New World Order machine. It is after all a state institution and therefore in the case of a conspiracy surrounding the Lisbon treaty it would follow that it would be a vital part of said conspiracy.

Well I'm a great believer in balance so I'm injecting some into the thread. If you're asking me do think many people will listen, I'd say no they won't.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Simple Question Meglome

Is this true???

and by that I mean that once the treaty is ratified then there ya go thats it all the EU Laws are set in stone exactly as outlined in the treaty and unalterable without Referenda, or these are just a first draft of a lot of the laws that will be enacted without consultation once we greenlight the new EUracracy.

The simple answer is no. But there are two parts to that.

1. Anything we need a referendum on now we still need a referendum on after Lisbon.

2. Areas which the EU already has competence there is a new procedure to allow for changes. These changes, as long as they don't give any new powers to the EU can be decided by the council (which obviously includes our own representatives).

All that is changed is the EU can make simple smaller changes without the big treaties and only when they already have the powers in that area. Which means they still can't change stuff like our direct taxation, or our neutrality etc. etc. (Not sure if I described this 100% but that is the jist of it)

uprising wrote: »

He's a very independant eliteist...
Judges are appointed by the President. However, as with almost all the President's constitutional powers, these appointments are made under "the advice of the Government". In practice, this means that the judges are nominated by the government and automatically approved by the President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Court_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Well who do you think would hire the judges? If we assume a conspiracy then this could be suspicious. All anyone has to do is show something the referendum commission did that isn't completely factual and fair. Now other than the idea the pictures were biased (pictures that would have been done by a graphic designer) no one has shown that.

Mahatma coat

so thats a yes then, they can make incremental small changes to legislation without consultation once its inside their Frame of reference, so ultimatley they can do whatever they want so long as they dont try to push a big change through in one go, we have seen already how they function by increments

meglome

Mahatma coat wrote: »

so thats a yes then, they can make incremental small changes to legislation without consultation once its inside their Frame of reference, so ultimatley they can do whatever they want so long as they dont try to push a big change through in one go, we have seen already how they function by increments

No that would be a No. All it does is simplify the way it's done.

Some claim that Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty gives the EU powers to amend its own treaties, without the need for a new treaty, and that this amending would not be subject to a new referendum.

This is not true.

Article 48 allows the European Council to make amendments to the treaty. This process however will be done on a veto basis, which means Ireland can veto any proposal.

The right for Ireland to have a referendum on any changes to the Lisbon Treaty comes from the Irish Constitution, not the European Treaty. This is due to a court decision called the Crotty Judgement. This decision means that whenever there is a significant change in the nature of Ireland’s link to the EU, such as giving the EU increased powers over any issue, a referendum is required.

Article 48 proposes a simple system for proposing changes to the Treaty. However this in no way affects the right of Irish people to have a referendum, since that right is given to us by the Irish constitution, not a European Treaty.

Article 48: The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the European Council proposals for revising all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union relating to the internal policies and action of the Union.

The European Council may adopt a decision amending all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The European Council shall act by unanimity after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, and the European Central Bank in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. That decision shall not enter into force until it is approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

The decision referred to in the second subparagraph shall not increase the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.

http://www.generationyes.ie/faq/

toiletduck

...massive corporate controlled Police State...

Ohh man, we were promised this before by the No side to the Nice 1 & 2 votes. And before that aswell... Hmm well maybe this time :pac:

humanji

nullzero wrote: »

Do you even understand the futility of citing the referendum commission as a bastion of honesty on a forum which deals solely with conspiracy theories?
You've been here trying to enlighten us stupid Conspiracy nuts for long enough to know that conspracy nuts wouldn't trust something like the referendum commission to tell the truth about the Lisbon treaty which conspiracy nuts see as a cog on the New World Order machine. It is after all a state institution and therefore in the case of a conspiracy surrounding the Lisbon treaty it would follow that it would be a vital part of said conspiracy.

uprising wrote: »

Copy and pasted from an anti lisbon site,

Uprisings link is an anti-lisbon site, therefore simply can't be trusted as it it biased and just as likely to lie as a pro lisbon site. So why blindly believe on and not the other?

K-9

humanji wrote: »

Uprisings link is an anti-lisbon site, therefore simply can't be trusted as it it biased and just as likely to lie as a pro lisbon site. So why blindly believe on and not the other?

Fair point. There are just as many, if not more Catholic fundamentalists and extreme Republicans spreading lies as Extreme Federalists on the other side.

meglome

toiletduck wrote: »

Ohh man, we were promised this before by the No side to the Nice 1 & 2 votes. And before that aswell... Hmm well maybe this time :pac:

The amazing thing is toiletduck they've been claiming basically the same things since before we joined the EU in 1973. How often can they make the same bull**** claims, which never actually happen, before people start to really wonder about their motivations? Ah sure it's only been 36 years they'll happen any day now I'm sure. :rolleyes:

Black Uhlan

Simple Question Meglome

Quote:
Article 48: The self amending clause or escalator clause. Allows the EU to escalate it's power into new areas WITHOUT coming back to the people for a vote on any changes. So what we have in fact is a treaty that is not set in stone like our own constitution. It is a flexible treaty free to be amended by the EU elite as they wish.

This leaves our country and the other individual member states extremely vulnerable! Would you sign a contract on a deal with someone who could legally adjust that contract to favour themselves AFTER you'd signed it ?
Is this true???

and by that I mean that once the treaty is ratified then there ya go thats it all the EU Laws are set in stone exactly as outlined in the treaty and unalterable without Referenda, or these are just a first draft of a lot of the laws that will be enacted without consultation once we greenlight the new EUracracy.

meglome wrote: »

The simple answer is no. But there are two parts to that.

1. Anything we need a referendum on now we still need a referendum on after Lisbon.

2. Areas which the EU already has competence there is a new procedure to allow for changes. These changes, as long as they don't give any new powers to the EU can be decided by the council (which obviously includes our own representatives).

All that is changed is the EU can make simple smaller changes without the big treaties and only when they already have the powers in that area. Which means they still can't change stuff like our direct taxation, or our neutrality etc. etc. (Not sure if I described this 100% but that is the jist of it)

meglome wrote: »

All that is changed is the EU can make simple smaller changes without the big treaties and only when they already have the powers in that area.

This Meglome is a yes to the question asked doesn't matter how you try to dress it up. The EU will have a political blank-cheque to make amendments to the the treaty away from prying eyes in areas that they have competence in now or stand to gain through Lisbon. The Crotty judgement only gives us protection in areas where the areas were the EU don't have competences.

Another simple question Meglome, will the passing of Lisbon reduce the say WE THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND have on the contents of future treaties compared to the past?

uprising

humanji wrote: »

Uprisings link is an anti-lisbon site, therefore simply can't be trusted as it it biased and just as likely to lie as a pro lisbon site. So why blindly believe on and not the other?

Actually it was copy and pasted from Jim Corr's site, seen as it was claimed boards.ie were censoring him, and I noticed the thread claiming he was censored was locked I threw that in.......just to see like, y'know.

meglome

Black Uhlan wrote: »

This Meglome is a yes to the question asked doesn't matter how you try to dress it up. The EU will have a political blank-cheque to make amendments to the the treaty away from prying eyes in areas that they have competence in now or stand to gain through Lisbon. The Crotty judgement only gives us protection in areas where the areas were the EU don't have competences.

Another simple question Meglome, will the passing of Lisbon reduce the say WE THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND have on the contents of future treaties compared to the past?

I'll try again. It's just a way to simplify small changes, that's it. It doesn't give the EU new powers.

Some claim that Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty gives the EU powers to amend its own treaties, without the need for a new treaty, and that this amending would not be subject to a new referendum.

This is not true.

Article 48 allows the European Council to make amendments to the treaty. This process however will be done on a veto basis, which means Ireland can veto any proposal.

The right for Ireland to have a referendum on any changes to the Lisbon Treaty comes from the Irish Constitution, not the European Treaty. This is due to a court decision called the Crotty Judgement. This decision means that whenever there is a significant change in the nature of Ireland’s link to the EU, such as giving the EU increased powers over any issue, a referendum is required.

Article 48 proposes a simple system for proposing changes to the Treaty. However this in no way affects the right of Irish people to have a referendum, since that right is given to us by the Irish constitution, not a European Treaty.

Article 48: The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the European Council proposals for revising all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union relating to the internal policies and action of the Union.

The European Council may adopt a decision amending all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The European Council shall act by unanimity after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, and the European Central Bank in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. That decision shall not enter into force until it is approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

The decision referred to in the second subparagraph shall not increase the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.

Anything we need a referendum on now, we still need a referendum on after a Yes to Lisbon. 100% Fact. Other smaller things can be agreed by our government, very like they do now. You're reading between the lines to stuff that isn't there.

humanji

uprising wrote:

Actually it was copy and pasted from Jim Corr's site, seen as it was claimed boards.ie were censoring him, and I noticed the thread claiming he was censored was locked I threw that in.......just to see like, y'know.

So it's an anti-lisbon, pro-NWO conspiracy site. That's still incredibly biased and shouldn't be accepted on face value.

(and I guess since it wasn't deleted, old Jim isn't being censored, he simply broke the rules. )

nullzero

humanji wrote: »

Uprisings link is an anti-lisbon site, therefore simply can't be trusted as it it biased and just as likely to lie as a pro lisbon site. So why blindly believe on and not the other?

I'm not sure why you're quoting me, but while I understand what you've said, I would suggest that the politics forum might be a better place for a balanced discussion on the Lisbon Treaty. The CT angle is clearly something yourself and Meglome etc have trouble with, and while you're free to waste your own time and argue for no reason in a manner which is akin to banging your head against a brick wall, there is a better place for the discussion you want to have and I know from being there myself that you know where it is due to the fact that you post there. Which makes me wonder what you're doing here, even though you have every right to waste your own time.

K-9

This is a plot by the Catholic Church to bring in Abortions.

Mahatma coat

Anything we need a referendum on now, we still need a referendum on after a Yes to Lisbon. 100% Fact. Other smaller things can be agreed by our government, very like they do now. You're reading between the lines to stuff that isn't there.

So then I read this as they can do what they like so long as the do it in the correct order, they can basicly give themselves more and more powers incrementaly until they have the whole thing stitched up nicely.

its the 'stuf that isnt there' that worries a lot of people, I'd be a fan of a constitution for europe, but something done with Public consultation, not the pet project of some faceless EUrocrats, rejected twice already but still being pushed through, ask yerself why they are so persistent in getting 'this' treaty passed? what would be so wrong with havin a proper open forum across the continent to discuss the direction 'We the People' want europe to be going? rather than a, well we've decided whats best for you now shut up and vote yes

meglome

nullzero wrote: »

I'm not sure why you're quoting me, but while I understand what you've said, I would suggest that the politics forum might be a better place for a balanced discussion on the Lisbon Treaty. The CT angle is clearly something yourself and Meglome etc have trouble with, and while you're free to waste your own time and argue for no reason in a manner which is akin to banging your head against a brick wall, there is a better place for the discussion you want to have and I know from being there myself that you know where it is due to the fact that you post there. Which makes me wonder what you're doing here, even though you have every right to waste your own time.

But people are saying a detailed legal document means something it doesn't. It's easy to show that these things are not true.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

So then I read this as they can do what they like so long as the do it in the correct order, they can basicly give themselves more and more powers incrementaly until they have the whole thing stitched up nicely.

No they can't. ANYTHING WE NEED A REFERENDUM ON NOW WE WILL STILL NEED A REFERENDUM ON AFTER THE LISBON TREATY IS PASSED. They can't give themselves more powers unless they get us to vote Yes to a new treaty in a referendum, just exactly like now. Are you just deliberately being obtuse?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

its the 'stuf that isnt there' that worries a lot of people, I'd be a fan of a constitution for europe, but something done with Public consultation, not the pet project of some faceless EUrocrats, rejected twice already but still being pushed through, ask yerself why they are so persistent in getting 'this' treaty passed? what would be so wrong with havin a proper open forum across the continent to discuss the direction 'We the People' want europe to be going? rather than a, well we've decided whats best for you now shut up and vote yes

I'm not a fan of an EU constitution but since there's nothing to fear in the Lisbon treaty I don't have to worry about that.

Maybe all those many many sensible groups that are calling for a Yes vote are doing it because the treaty is a good thing. Can they all be lying? can they all be bought? Maybe it's just really simple, the treaty is good.

Jesus Wept

You had me at Jim Corr.

Mahatma coat

there may be 'NOTHING TO FEAR' in the Lisbon treaty NOW, but can anyone guarantee that in 5 years it wont be a completley different document having had a series of ammendments to itself and a series of other referenced treaties, no single change would seem sinister untill they were all examined together as a whole after the event, and at that point it would be far too late for the people of europe to do anything about it.

its time to get back to basics, the EU is about common markets and cooperatrion between NATIONS, it should not be about making a fedral United states of Europe

meglome

Mahatma coat wrote: »

there may be 'NOTHING TO FEAR' in the Lisbon treaty NOW, but can anyone guarantee that in 5 years it wont be a completley different document having had a series of ammendments to itself and a series of other referenced treaties, no single change would seem sinister untill they were all examined together as a whole after the event, and at that point it would be far too late for the people of europe to do anything about it.

They can't give themselves new powers so unless the people of Ireland and the rest of the EU nations want to vote in the changes you fear then NO THIS CANNOT HAPPEN.

And to be honest the EU does everything through negotiation, everything a country has an issue with they discuss it. That's why basically no EU legalisation is actually vetoed by an EU country, they've agreed it all up front.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

its time to get back to basics, the EU is about common markets and cooperatrion between NATIONS, it should not be about making a fedral United states of Europe

The Lisbon treaty was brought up to the German constitutional court and the court found that there was nothing federalist in it.

ardinn

ok - I hate reading this sort of tripe legal fizzle fubble so I couldnt tell you what article says and does what here or there, but, all i've heard is people slamming the treaty and telling some scary stories that are persuading me to actually vote for the first time - Vote no That is.

So can anyone here defending the treaty here give me a few key points thats something good will happen if it is voted in - not just for me but for europeans and europe as a whole.

K-9

ardinn wrote: »

ok - I hate reading this sort of tripe legal fizzle fubble so I couldnt tell you what article says and does what here or there, but, all i've heard is people slamming the treaty and telling some scary stories that are persuading me to actually vote for the first time - Vote no That is.

So can anyone here defending the treaty here give me a few key points thats something good will happen if it is voted in - not just for me but for europeans and europe as a whole.

The only thing good I can think of is: threads like this are going for years and still nothing bad has happened.

Posters keep posting threads, remember seeing a RDTH one from 2001 that never happened, but it will, sometime, soon!

Captain Furball

K-9 wrote: »

The only thing good I can think of is: threads like this are going for years and still nothing bad has happened.

Posters keep posting threads, remember seeing a RDTH one from 2001 that never happened, but it will, sometime, soon!

Vote no if you want ireland to stay the same.
Makes more sense than voting yes for changing sh!t.

K-9

Captain Furball wrote: »

Vote no if you want ireland to stay the same.
Makes more sense than voting yes for changing sh!t.

But what RTDH said will happen anyway, sometime, soon.

meglome

ardinn wrote: »

ok - I hate reading this sort of tripe legal fizzle fubble so I couldnt tell you what article says and does what here or there, but, all i've heard is people slamming the treaty and telling some scary stories that are persuading me to actually vote for the first time - Vote no That is.

So can anyone here defending the treaty here give me a few key points thats something good will happen if it is voted in - not just for me but for europeans and europe as a whole.

The important thing to remember here is you don't need to believe anyone, it's very easy to check.

This is a very good list of reasons to vote Yes.

The Independent Referendum Commission site.

The really sad thing is the Lisbon treaty for the most part is boring and routine. If you have questions go over to the EU forum where you will get good advice. In here you can make up anything you like and don't need to prove it so it's not the best place for fact.

And one final point we have no right to decide what the rest of the EU does, the same way they have no right to decide what we do.

K-9 wrote: »

But what RTDH said will happen anyway, sometime, soon.

Well we've only been waiting since 1972, 36 years is nothing. I hear the rapture is next week.

Captain Furball

meglome wrote: »

The important thing to remember here is you don't need to believe anyone, it's very easy to check.

This is a very good list of reasons to vote Yes.

The Independent Referendum Commission site.

The really sad thing is the Lisbon treaty for the most part is boring and routine. If you have questions go over to the EU forum where you will get good advice. In here you can make up anything you like and don't need to prove it so it's not the best place for fact.

And one final point we have no right to decide what the rest of the EU does, the same way they have no right to decide what we do.



Well we've only been waiting since 1972, 36 years is nothing. I hear the rapture is next week.

Did someone take over your shift?

meglome

Captain Furball wrote: »

Did someone take over your shift?

Instead of proving me wrong with some facts you resort to the usual crap that I must be a shill of some kind.

Captain Furball

meglome wrote: »

Instead of proving me wrong with some facts you resort to the usual crap that I must be a shill of some kind.

Not a shill at all i never said anything of the like.
I do think your an amazing person though who goes many days without sleep
But that's a different discussion.

meglome

Captain Furball wrote: »

Not a shill at all i never said anything of the like.
I do think your an amazing person though who goes many days without sleep
But that's a different discussion.

Ah shucks thanks. I do basically go days without sleep, sad but true.

Slugs

What I think it comes down to is this, a institute set up for the purpose of Economic Trade is becoming a political institute, increasing it's influence over it's member countries. Now some people don't mind that, I do. If you are for giving away more control over your country to an organisation that couldn't give a sh1t about you or your circumstances, then Vote YES, if you want to keep what little power you have, and slow down the introduction of a NWO, then by all means Vote No. and if you're unsure, vote No or don't Vote at all.

bonkey

Let me once-again remind people.

This is not a Politics forum. It is not "Politics Lite".

If you want to discuss a Conspiracy Theory, this is the place. If you want to discuss the Political impact of the Treaty, you're in the wrong place.

kryogen

These are just some quotes in realtion to the constitution/treaty.... whichever you wish to call it.

If you look back through time and check out the people who are creating these documents then it is clear to see their beliefs and where they want to go in the future. research them. the treaty is unreadable, this is not by mistake, this is by design.



“The difference between the original Constitution and the present Lisbon Treaty is one of approach, rather than content … The proposals in the original constitutional treaty are practically unchanged. They have simply been dispersed through the old treaties in the form of amendments. Why this subtle change? Above all, to head off any threat of referenda by avoiding any form of constitutional vocabulary … But lift the lid and look in the toolbox: all the same innovative and effective tools are there, just as they were carefully crafted by the European Convention.”
- V.Giscard D’Estaing, former French President and Chairman of the Convention which drew up the EU Constitution, The Independent, London, 30 October 2007


“Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly … All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.”
- V.Giscard D’Estaing, Le Monde, 14 June 2007, and Sunday Telegraph, 1 July 2007

” The most striklng change ( between the EU Constitution in its older and newer version ) is perhaps that in order to enable some governments to reassure their electorates that the changes will have no constitutional implications, the idea of a new and simpler treaty containing all the provisions governing the Union has now been dropped in favour of a huge series of individual amendments to two existing treaties. Virtual incomprehensibilty has thus replaced simplicity as the key approach to EU reform. As for the changes now proposed to be made to the constitutional treaty, most are presentational changes that have no practical effect. They have simply been designed to enable certain heads of government to sell to their people the idea of ratification by parliamentary action rather than by referendum.”
- Dr Garret FitzGerald, former Irish Taoiseach, Irish Times, 30 June 2007

“The good thing about not calling it a Constltution is that no one can ask for a referendum on it.
- Giuliano Amato, speech at London School of Econmics, 21 February 2007


“The Constitution is the capstone of a European Federal State.”
- Guy Verhofstadt, Belgian Prime Minister, Financial Times, 21 June 2004

meglome

kryogen wrote: »

Quotes

I suppose you can show me in the treaty where those things happen?

I've read the treaty, it's pretty boring but not unreadable. And believe me if I can read it anyone can, once you have the patience. Here's the consolidated version..

Though at the end of the day it is a detailed legal document, maybe you expected some light reading for when you're on the jacks? It needs to be detailed so there can be no misconceptions.

'No' claims have no basis in law

A list of Irish organisations that support a Yes vote.

meglome wrote: »

Alliance for Europe
American Chamber of Commerce
Barnado's
Concern(NGO)
Construction Industry Federation (CIF)
Consumer Electronic Distributors Association (CEDA)
Cork Chamber of Commerce
Cork City Business Association
Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Dublin City Business Association
Engineers Ireland
Fashion & Footwear Federation
Financial Services Ireland
Fine Gael
Galway City Business Association
IBEC
ICMSA
ICT Ireland
ICTU
INO
Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland
Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers
Irish Banking Federation
Irish Congress of Trade Unions
Irish Consultative Committee of Accountancy Bodies
Irish Dairy Industry Association (IDIA)
Irish Exporters Association (IEA)
Irish Farmers Association
Irish Fish Producers’ Organisation
Irish Franchise Association
Irish Hardware & Building Materials Association
Irish Hotels Federation (IHF)
Irish Medical Devices Association (IMDA)
Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association
Irish Software Association (ISA)
Irish Taxation Institute
Irish Tourist Industry Confederation (ITIC)
Irish Travel Agents Association (ITAA)
Killybegs Fishermen’s Organisation
Labour
Limerick Chamber of Commerce
Limerick City Business Association
Network Dublin
North Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Pharmachemical Ireland
Progressive Democrats
Retail Ireland
SIPTU
Small Firms Association (SFA)
Society of Irish Motor Industry (SIMI)
South Dublin Chamber
Telecoms and Internet Federation (TIF)
Trocaire
Waterford Chamber of Commerce

On the other side we have communists, socialists, Cóir and Sinn Fein and Libertas.

kryogen

meglome wrote: »

I suppose you can show me in the treaty where those things happen? ........
(

You are entitled to your opinion as im sure your aware, its not a debating forum so i dont feel the need to debate this with you, the facts of the matter are that maybe you have all the previous treatys to hand and can follow the reference points and addendums and proposed ammendments but plenty of scholars agree and it has been quoted by the authors of the treaty that it is unreadable by design. its not really up for discussion. google can be your friend on that cause im not getting into a debate.

I will be voting no, you can vote yes and good luck to you. at least you seem to have an interest in it. alot of people are voting yes because they dont have a clue whats going on, and alot of people will probably vote no cause their pissed off with the government. thats not the ideal situation but its what we're in

i would urge people to really look into the matter themselves before voting and make up their own minds cause God knows we cant trust either side on this referendum to give us the real facts and trust us to make an informed un biased decision.

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

On the other side we have communists, socialists, Cóir and Sinn Fein and Libertas.

And not to mention the majority of the Irish electorate. :rolleyes:

Most of them fearing the unknown from the EU Parliament IE, police state legislation that will in itself usher in the "New World Order" and martial law. :eek:

The following poster that appeared in the last run up campaign gives us an idea of what Project Indect is all about :eek:

meglome

kryogen wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion as im sure your aware, its not a debating forum so i dont feel the need to debate this with you, the facts of the matter are that maybe you have all the previous treatys to hand and can follow the reference points and addendums and proposed ammendments but plenty of scholars agree and it has been quoted by the authors of the treaty that it is unreadable by design. its not really up for discussion. google can be your friend on that cause im not getting into a debate.

Hey thanks for the reply. One thing though I have read it so I'm afraid some out of context quote isn't going to change that. Yes it is a legal document so it's hard going but by no means unreadable. Just read the consolidated version and it fairly okay.

Does that big list of groups supporting the treaty not make you wonder about your decision to vote no?

meglome

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

And not to mention the majority of the Irish electorate. :rolleyes:

I think you're 'confused' again there Rtdh. 28% of the Irish electorate voted no the last time, not even close to a majority. :rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Most of them fearing the unknown from the EU Parliament IE, police state legislation that will in itself usher in the "New World Order" and martial law. :eek:

I don't doubt that people are fearing the unknown. Nearly everything you've said that can happen simply cannot happen but it might make people afraid all the same. The only way it could happen would be for the Irish people to vote it in some future really bad treaty which they are not going to do. :eek:

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

I think you're 'confused' again there Rtdh. 28% of the Irish electorate voted no the last time, not even close to a majority. :rolleyes: :

Corrected, the majority of those that cast their vote voted NO. :rolleyes:

meglome wrote: »

I don't doubt that people are fearing the unknown. Nearly everything you've said that can happen simply cannot happen but it might make people afraid all the same. The only way it could happen would be for the Irish people to vote it in some future really bad treaty which they are not going to do. :eek:

It certainly CAN happen.

Any document like the Lisbon treaty that is self amending is DEADLY DANGEROUS :eek:

We are signing our selves to, vague, blank and poisonous document that will inevitably lead our country right down the dark slipper slope into the New World Order. :eek:

Just reading the text of Project Indect alone would put shivers down the spine of any normal Irish citizen. It is a frightening attack on our civil liberties.

kryogen

meglome wrote: »

Hey thanks for the reply. One thing though I have read it so I'm afraid some out of context quote isn't going to change that. Yes it is a legal document so it's hard going but by no means unreadable. Just read the consolidated version and it fairly okay.

Does that big list of groups supporting the treaty not make you wonder about your decision to vote no?

No, it doesnt matter to me who has come out in favour of it or who has come out against it, i like to learn all i can about an issue myself and then form my own opinion on it. I dont need any slogans to influence me, the Yes campaign have one saying vote yes cause we need europe, or people on the yes side say vote yes cause look at all the eejits who want you to vote no! is that a logical way of informing people of the decision they face? a government that has failed the people and lost their trust simply saying, trust us!? If we vote no to lisbon we will still be in the EU, we dont need to fear being booted out so i dont like the scaremongering in that respect...... besides Switzerland and Norway are not in the EU but it doesnt seem to effect them too badly.

Then you have people on the No side who avoid the issue also, with stupi slogans about a minimum wage of 1.84 or something, and of course the good old, heroes died for your freedom, are you really going to sign it away so easily. the minimum wage one just sets them up to look like idiots and although i respect like every irish person the sacrifices our fore fathers made in creating this republic, it is not properly informing the electorate of the decision at hand

I have heard that the consolidated version has inaccuracies in it so i have been swimming through the mess that is the lisbon treaty, unconsolidated for about 8 weeks now and believe me it is very very hard to read.

I dont believe it is democratic to simply ignore a nations vote as was done to the irish last year, i dont accept any guarantees, they are not written into the treaty and as such are not worth the paper they are written on. i am not comapring them to Hitler or anything like that, but history has taught us how good verbal guarantees and even written ones are sometimes

i think the Lisbon treaty is a step too far and i cannot support it.

I am aware that because of the legaleese in the treaty it is not neccessary to have a referendum in other countrys but i ask you, if they are confident that the majority of the people of Europe want this treaty ratified then why not give them the chance ot vote on it?, it is the most democratic solution undeniably and gives insight into the thinking of the men in power who do not want this. It says plainly that the general publics opinion is not really wanted but is in fact a hinderance to their political goals and should be avoided wherever possible

On a lighter note, i assume this treaty will be passed this time but do you think we might get them to put it up for vote again as a sort of a best 2 out of 3 type f thing, would seem only fair since the score will only be 1-1 if its passed!

6th

We now have a Lisbon Mega Thread. All discussion to be continue there.