Is there snobbery in the Irish music scene?

an_other

I was at the Cois Fharraige festival in kilkee earlier this month and while I was there for the Doves and Newton Faulkner, it was The Saw Doctors that blew me away.

I am from the midlands in my early 30's and had never been to see them before. I expected them to be good craic and for the crowd to be a bit mad. But what impressed me was the quality of the material and their live performance.

Since that weekend I have purchased their back catalog of stuff and done a bit of reading up on them and am shocked at how they have been ignored by the main stream media here for probably the last 15 years.

Here are a few things I have noticed.
They have played Ireland’s biggest music festival Oxegen more often than any other act.
Their last 2 singles where #1 and #2 in the Irish charts but yet they weren't play listed on any of the pop music stations.
They are the second most successful Irish band chart wise after U2 (forgetting boyzone, westlife etc)
How often do you hear a Saw Doctors song on the radio?


So many bands have come and gone and yet they still remain, why is it that we don't seem to appreciate them here? Is it a form of musical snobbery because they don't dress in designer gear or have expensive music videos?

I'd be interested to hear from other music fans out there as to why this great band seems to be consistently ignored.

whatawaster

an_other wrote: »

I was at the Cois Fharraige festival in kilkee earlier this month and while I was there for the Doves and Newton Faulkner, it was The Saw Doctors that blew me away.

I am from the midlands in my early 30's and had never been to see them before. I expected them to be good craic and for the crowd to be a bit mad. But what impressed me was the quality of the material and their live performance.

Since that weekend I have purchased their back catalog of stuff and done a bit of reading up on them and am shocked at how they have been ignored by the main stream media here for probably the last 15 years.

Here are a few things I have noticed.
They have played Ireland’s biggest music festival Oxegen more often than any other act.
Their last 2 singles where #1 and #2 in the Irish charts but yet they weren't play listed on any of the pop music stations.
They are the second most successful Irish band chart wise after U2 (forgetting boyzone, westlife etc)
How often do you hear a Saw Doctors song on the radio?


So many bands have come and gone and yet they still remain, why is it that we don't seem to appreciate them here? Is it a form of musical snobbery because they don't dress in designer gear or have expensive music videos?

I'd be interested to hear from other music fans out there as to why this great band seems to be consistently ignored.

If i'm being honest, i don't care about the Saw Doctor's for the same reason i care about hardly any Irish bands. There are far better bands from the UK and US, and it seems most people feel the same way.

It's not a conspiracy. It doesn't matter how often the play Oxegen, or how well they chart. They simply do not compare to the very best bands in the world, so i consider it a waste of my precious time listening to them

an_other

Cheers for the reply whatawaster

But if you haven't listened to these Irish bands how do you know the UK or US bands are better?

whatawaster

an_other wrote: »

Cheers for the reply whatawaster

But if you haven't listened to these Irish bands how do you know the UK or US bands are better?

I hear songs all the time by Irish bands. I listen to the radio and unfortunately usually hear one of their songs and decide they aren't my cup of tea. I also hear plenty of Irish bands as they are often support to bands i go and see.
There have been few recent Irish bands who did anything for me - but Simple Kid, Future Kings of Spain and HAL were all good.


I have heard several Saw Doctors songs and have seen them at Oxegen. They aren't bad really just not good enough imo

an_other

That's fair enough whatawaster each to their own after all.
If someone doesn't like a band or a song that is fair enough.

I am just wondering why a band who obviously has a large following and a long track record for making hit songs and selling out gigs seems to be largely ignored by the media.

I read 2 reviews of the Cois Fharraige weekend and both reviewers just ignored the band that headlined the main night (Saturday) and got the biggest crowd. Which seems strange to me. If they were on a big record label would they have gotten the write up?

I wonder how many Irish bands might have just given up due to lack of exposure.

Nolanger

It's because they smile too much and don't take themselves too seriously.

DarkJager

an_other wrote: »

How often do you hear a Saw Doctors song on the radio?

If you have the misfortune to be listening to Limericks Live 95fm - about 15-20 times in the space of 24 hours.

an_other

So you have to take yourself seriously to be taken seriously?

Not a big fan of local radio in limerick

Utopia Parkway

an_other wrote: »

I was at the Cois Fharraige festival in kilkee earlier this month and while I was there for the Doves and Newton Faulkner, it was The Saw Doctors that blew me away.

I am from the midlands in my early 30's and had never been to see them before. I expected them to be good craic and for the crowd to be a bit mad. But what impressed me was the quality of the material and their live performance.

Since that weekend I have purchased their back catalog of stuff and done a bit of reading up on them and am shocked at how they have been ignored by the main stream media here for probably the last 15 years.

Here are a few things I have noticed.
They have played Ireland’s biggest music festival Oxegen more often than any other act.
Their last 2 singles where #1 and #2 in the Irish charts but yet they weren't play listed on any of the pop music stations.
They are the second most successful Irish band chart wise after U2 (forgetting boyzone, westlife etc)
How often do you hear a Saw Doctors song on the radio?


So many bands have come and gone and yet they still remain, why is it that we don't seem to appreciate them here? Is it a form of musical snobbery because they don't dress in designer gear or have expensive music videos?

I'd be interested to hear from other music fans out there as to why this great band seems to be consistently ignored.

The Saw Doctors will never make it until they start wearing skinny jeans.:D

MGSman123

whatawaster wrote: »

If i'm being honest, i don't care about the Saw Doctor's for the same reason i care about hardly any Irish bands. There are far better bands from the UK and US, and it seems most people feel the same way.

It's not a conspiracy. It doesn't matter how often the play Oxegen, or how well they chart. They simply do not compare to the very best bands in the world, so i consider it a waste of my precious time listening to them

I'm going to be blunt and ask you, are you a snob? I mean come on. You cant just judge a band based on the country they come from, can you? Does it really matter to you THAT much?

I, personally, have never listened to the Saw Doctors, but from my experience with the Irish music scene, I would agree that a lot of talented bands are overlooked, but that's just they way it is. It's not the media that controls the charts, songs on the radio or, really anything to do with the music they play. They're just given a bunch of tracks, a number of times to play each one and a big brown envelope.

It's the labels that are holding back these talented bands. After all, it is an industry. They're out to maximise sales. And what's the point in taking on a mediokre band who could be a major risk when you can make and mould your own pop sensation? It's preposterous... Nice topic... it's about time somebody said something!

an_other

Well said MGSman123 a band or act shouldn't be judged by where they are from. Just because a band is from the US or Uk doesn't mean they are automatically better than an Irish band. Nor does an Irish band deserve airplay or media exposure just because they are Irish.

I only raised the saw doctors as an example because here is a band that has been consistently touring and recording for 20 years so they obviously have something that a very large portion of the public like yet they don't gain the media exposure or airplay of less popular acts.

How can someone write a review of a 3 day festival and just ignore the main act on the Saturday night?

Monkey61

To be fair though,a lot of bands are "ignored" by the main stream media. There is a hell of a lot of good bands out there but there is only so much room on the radio, in papers etc.

The Saw Doctors are an alright band. They have a few very good songs, granted, but they don't exactly have a main stream sound that will propel them to the top of the charts. Yes they have a fan base, but I wouldn't call that a big, record buying fanbase by any means. I worked in a music shop for 7 years and while their albums tick over, they wouldn't really sell that many - thus, why they are not in the charts and thus why they wouldn't constantly be on the radio.

As for number one singles, well it is very easy to get a number one single in Ireland if you release a song on a slow week or just at a slow time. A couple of hundred copies could do it and it is very easy to get enough friends and family and well wishers to buy stuff for that to happen. Plus people are far more likely to spend two euro on a once off, almost novelty song basis.

Also bear in mind that "About you now" (if that is one of the singles to which you refer) is a cover of a very good and popular song, that was brought to people's attention when they did it on Podge and Rodge for a laugh, and it was entirely for charity and people always buy charity singles in Ireland.

I don't think it is music snobbery, for me personally, it just isn't the kind of music that is going to excite me and change my life. They are a good live band (they'd want to be after that many years of touring) and I Useta Love Her, is probably one of my favourite singles from an Irish trad band of all time, but they don't write the kind of songs that I want to dance to when I am out, that I am going to get amazing meaning from, or that is going to appeal to me on any kind of bigger level then "oo that's an okay song"

Also, I would count them as a folky, trad Irish band, alongside Christy Moore and that kind of thing, which to be fair, is not the kind of music that gets played on the kind of radio stations that play the Sugababes or Akon.

an_other

Where does the idea that they are a trad band come from?
Sure a couple of songs made use of an accordion or mandolin but that hardly classifys them as a trad band.
I saw Nirvana use one on the MTV unplugged performance
I've seem REM using an accordion that wouldn't make either of them a trad band.

Maybe it's classification of music that is the problem. Were they victims of the early success of I useta Lover and N17?

Sure a fan base might be able to take a song to the top of the charts, but why does any song stay there?
It stays there because it receives airplay which means more people hear the song and then buy it.
If a song goes to #2 in the Charts such as their last single then surely the pop music stations would be giving it at least a few plays.

Monkey61

I suppose I would use the description "Trad" in a loose sense. The singer's voice and their music to me has a very particularly Irish, folky sound and there is just no way that you could mistake them from being from anywhere else.

Mandolins or not, it is pretty obvious that Nirvana and REM are not trad/folk bands now in fairness...

I don't know about being victims of early success except I think that they ran out of the catchy quirky pop tunes that made them famous.

thirtythirty

Here's 4 reasons they never made it / never will make it.

1: The music is bog-standard guitar strumming that 90% of anyone who can play basic chords can do.
2: The songs are a big melodic mess - there seem to be no break points or change in tempo or pitches. Some of their songs are so badly so, that no one could ever sing or humm the music. *Clare Island*
3: The "trad-esque" sound is not a universally enjoyed sound. Much like the way you don't hear any songs with the use of bagpipes on the radio.
4: They have zero image, and image denotes what kind of sound they make.

an_other

Oh there is no doubt they are Irish, just like there is no doubt Bruce Springsteen sounds American or blur sound English.

And as for "No one could ever sing or humm the music. *Clare Island*"
These people might disagree go to 1.46 in to the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxOpm_A_h6w

thirtythirty

Lol - variating the word "oh" doesn't count!

Anyway, my point is that their music is incredibly standard and has no unique sound to it. I'm not arguing that they're crap, and im sure some people do like them, Im just saying that theyre so incredibly "meh" that they never stood a chance of getting off the ground!

an_other

So that doesn't count as singing along.

What is sing along music these days?

thirtythirty

Well for example, U2's New Years Eve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-MiUR9kNg0

People can sing or hum both the words AND the music.

an_other

I love New Years day. Pity it's 26 years old isn't it.
What is sing along music these days?

whatawaster

MGSman123 wrote: »

I'm going to be blunt and ask you, are you a snob? I mean come on. You cant just judge a band based on the country they come from, can you? Does it really matter to you THAT much?

I, personally, have never listened to the Saw Doctors, but from my experience with the Irish music scene, I would agree that a lot of talented bands are overlooked, but that's just they way it is. It's not the media that controls the charts, songs on the radio or, really anything to do with the music they play. They're just given a bunch of tracks, a number of times to play each one and a big brown envelope.

It's the labels that are holding back these talented bands. After all, it is an industry. They're out to maximise sales. And what's the point in taking on a mediokre band who could be a major risk when you can make and mould your own pop sensation? It's preposterous... Nice topic... it's about time somebody said something!

I don't judge a band on where they come from. Where did i say that i did?
That there are far better bands from the UK and US is an observation having listened to lots of music for years.
I do like Irish bands - like Ash, Simple Kid, Future Kings of Spain to name just 3.

The problem is 95% of Irish bands fall into two or three categories:

Make-me-fall-asleep music - Paddy Casey, David Kitt, Bell X1 . . .
Mediocre Indie Music - Corona's, Delorentos, Blizzards . . .
Just terrible music - Aslan

You always hear the same excuses rolled out:
The labels don't give them a chance
The radio stations don't give them a chance
The critics don't give them a chance

It's just rubbish to be honest. As if those 3 groups don't want to hear good music. It's not as if it's their livelihood or anything


You say, and i quote: "And what's the point in taking on a mediokre band who could be a major risk when you can make and mould your own pop sensation?"

You might as well make you're own pop sensation as take on a mediocre band. Both are an equal waste of time. Just because one plays guitars and the other dance around doesn't make one better than the other.

thirtythirty

an_other wrote: »

I love New Years day. Pity it's 26 years old isn't it.
What is sing along music these days?

I dunno, off hand you could have

Cut Copy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gMk6mZotsk

Phoenix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4MXFOMpVIw

Hot Chip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHB9F8tvGVM


Even if you don't like their music - their sound is instantally reckognisable in all their music and hard to replicate at home. Whereas a lot of my mates could do Saw Doctors music.

whatawaster

spottyelephant wrote: »

Whereas a lot of my mates could do Saw Doctors music.

That’s not really relevant. A 7 year old could have a half-hour guitar lesson and be able to play the entire Ramones back catalogue.

There's more to good music than just technique.

an_other

Excellent point whatawaster.

I'm not talking about whether you like the music or how complicated it is.

The original point of my post was how come a band with a large fan base, hit singles & consistently top notch live performances doesn't seem to get airplay or press coverage.

I don't care where an act is from or how complicated their music is. I'm just asking what does an Irish act have to do in Ireland to get the airplay and press coverage that helps expose their music to a wider audience.

Do you have to dress in designer gear and look at your feet when you play to be considered good?

whatawaster

an_other wrote: »

The original point of my post was how come a band with a large fan base, hit singles & consistently top notch live performances doesn't seem to get airplay or press coverage.

1. The Saw Doctors would be on Irish radio more than most Irish bands – N17 in particular seems to be always on
2. Music writers will always favour music they like. It’s a fact.

an_other wrote: »

I don't care where an act is from or how complicated their music is. I'm just asking what does an Irish act have to do in Ireland to get the airplay and press coverage that helps expose their music to a wider audience.

If the Saw Doctors are charting so well in Ireland, do they really need to be exposed to a wider audience?

an_other wrote: »

Do you have to dress in designer gear and look at your feet when you play to be considered good

No, but unfortunately it does help. Image has always been a huge part of the music industry. It’s secondary to the music though

MGSman123

whatawaster wrote: »

You say, and i quote: "And what's the point in taking on a mediokre band who could be a major risk when you can make and mould your own pop sensation?"

You might as well make you're own pop sensation as take on a mediocre band. Both are an equal waste of time. Just because one plays guitars and the other dance around doesn't make one better than the other.

Well, you kind of shot down my point there. Let me re-instate it, this time with an example.

Boyzone vs. The Blizzards
Louie Walsh gathered together four young gents from all around Dublin city. Their first appearance on television was on the Late Late show in 1993. Over the next 10 years, they would sky-rocket to become one of the most popular boybands of the 90s. The reason for their success was due to the hand crafting by Louie Walsh, who'd been in the business many a year prior to this. He made them "star-worthy" and so, all involved were rewarded for their troubles. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr2ZKhV6eKc) Now, take the Blizzards. They were formed naturally in 2004. They've achieved mediokre success and are building a decent reputation. With that said, they're going nowhere. They haven't gotten much promotion whatsoever and their biggest gig after 5 years (3 of which they've been signed to Universal Music Ireland) will be in the Olympia this December. Within 3 years of Boyzone's formation, they already had 2 major UK hits ("Love Me for a Reason" and "Words").

whatawaster wrote: »

The problem is 95% of Irish bands fall into two or three categories:

Make-me-fall-asleep music - Paddy Casey, David Kitt, Bell X1 . . .
Mediocre Indie Music - Corona's, Delorentos, Blizzards . . .
Just terrible music - Aslan

I agree with you 100% here, but there is a reason that this is all there is. It's because any young, unsigned, underground band these days has to know somebody to get anywhere. It's an unfortunate fact. That's why we're left with only the three catergories you have above.

whatawaster wrote: »

I don't judge a band on where they come from. Where did i say that i did?

whatawaster wrote: »

If i'm being honest, i don't care about the Saw Doctor's for the same reason i care about hardly any Irish bands. There are far better bands from the UK and US, and it seems most people feel the same way.

It's not a conspiracy. It doesn't matter how often the play Oxegen, or how well they chart. They simply do not compare to the very best bands in the world, so i consider it a waste of my precious time listening to them

There. That's where ya said it. It's up there in black and white.

whatawaster

MGSman123 wrote: »

Well, you kind of shot down my point there. Let me re-instate it, this time with an example.

Boyzone vs. The Blizzards
Louie Walsh gathered together four young gents from all around Dublin city. Their first appearance on television was on the Late Late show in 1993. Over the next 10 years, they would sky-rocket to become one of the most popular boybands of the 90s. The reason for their success was due to the hand crafting by Louie Walsh, who'd been in the business many a year prior to this. He made them "star-worthy" and so, all involved were rewarded for their troubles. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr2ZKhV6eKc) Now, take the Blizzards. They were formed naturally in 2004. They've achieved mediokre success and are building a decent reputation. With that said, they're going nowhere. They haven't gotten much promotion whatsoever and their biggest gig after 5 years (3 of which they've been signed to Universal Music Ireland) will be in the Olympia this December. Within 3 years of Boyzone's formation, they already had 2 major UK hits ("Love Me for a Reason" and "Words").


I agree with you 100% here, but there is a reason that this is all there is. It's because any young, unsigned, underground band these days has to know somebody to get anywhere. It's an unfortunate fact. That's why we're left with only the three catergories you have above.



There. That's where ya said it. It's up there in black and white.

1. I never said i liked or disliked a band based on their Irishness or lack thereof. It was an observation i made about music i've listened to in my life.
2. The Blizzards are getting nowhere because they aren't good enough. Nowhere near good enough. Boyzone were successful because they had a market for their music.
If an underground Irish band makes great music they will achieve a kind of success. Maybe not chart success, but critical success, sell-out shows, respect, a legacy. they will influence future artists. That's what really matters. There isn't a single band in Ireland at the moment who i've heard who'll be remembered in 50 years.

Liam Byrne

spottyelephant wrote: »

Well for example, U2's New Years Eve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-MiUR9kNg0

People can sing or hum both the words AND the music.

Handy to be able to hum alright, especially when you don't realise that the words and title are actually "New Year's Day" :rolleyes:

As for the poster who said that "American and UK stuff is better" - sorry, but that's absolute bollox!

Yes, there will always be occasions where you hear a song and write off the artist, but that could be applicable to EVERY SINGLE ARTIST who ever lived; they've all dropped at least one clanger at some stage or other of their career.

Add to the fact that we probably don't even GET to hear most of the ****e stuff from those countries (although that's debatable at times when you hear some of the ****e that somehow makes it) and you're not comparing like with like on any level.

But there's HUNDREDS of decent Irish acts out there; most of them being ignored by radio stations who prefer to follow the herd and playlist ****e American pseudo-R&B and rap and chart rubbish; as well as so-called "reality" TV ****e.

Here's some acts worth checking out off the top of my head:

Sinead Madden, Joe Echo, Giveamanakick, Last Days of Death Country, Wokajo, The Stellas, The CMC, Protobaby, Neev, The Jades, Messiah J & The Expert, Verfield, Dash Inc, Keywest

....and there's LOADS more, with every taste and genre catered for.

Personally, I think "About You Now" was a bit too gimmicky, but then current charity records tend to be like that (think "Amarillo") and I have to say that the comment about "image dictating sound" has to be the most inverted comment I've ever heard! It's the "sound" that you listen to, and many acts change theirs significantly as they develop and progress.

whatawaster

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As for the poster who said that "American and UK stuff is better" - sorry, but that's absolute bollox!

Yes, there will always be occasions where you hear a song and write off the artist, but that could be applicable to EVERY SINGLE ARTIST who ever lived; they've all dropped at least one clanger at some stage or other of their career.

Add to the fact that we probably don't even GET to hear most of the ****e stuff from those countries (although that's debatable at times when you hear some of the ****e that somehow makes it) and you're not comparing like with like on any level.

But there's HUNDREDS of decent Irish acts out there; most of them being ignored by radio stations who prefer to follow the herd and playlist ****e American pseudo-R&B and rap and chart rubbish; as well as so-called "reality" TV ****e.

Here's some acts worth checking out off the top of my head:

Sinead Madden, Joe Echo, Giveamanakick, Last Days of Death Country, Wokajo, The Stellas, The CMC, Protobaby, Neev, The Jades, Messiah J & The Expert, Verfield, Dash Inc, Keywest

....and there's LOADS more, with every taste and genre catered for.

Personally, I think "About You Now" was a bit too gimmicky, but then current charity records tend to be like that (think "Amarillo") and I have to say that the comment about "image dictating sound" has to be the most inverted comment I've ever heard! It's the "sound" that you listen to, and many acts change theirs significantly as they develop and progress.

Yes most of the american and british music you hear on the radio is crap. Nearly all music on the radio is crap. That's why it doesn't matter a f*ck if these great Irish bands aren't played on the radio. That's not where most people get into bands anymore. Its online. And ANY band can have a website, a myspace page etc. If they are good enough live people will go to their websites, tell their friends etc and the bands following will grow and grow even beyond their own country.
Nobody is prejudiced against Irish bands. I hate this "everyone is against us" mentality. It's complete b*ll****.
Everywhere its the same. There are bands like Neutral Milk Hotel who have made what is widely regarded as one of the greatest albums of the last 20 years. I've never heard them on the radio in my life. But they adored by loads of people.
Many great bands never get a record deal with a major label. But if they're good enough, they'll be heard and respected. That's a fact. Maybe not by millions. But by enough people to matter

an_other

Great discussion lads

Rigsby

whatawaster wrote: »

Yes most of the american and british music you hear on the radio is crap. Nearly all music on the radio is crap. That's why it doesn't matter a f*ck if these great Irish bands aren't played on the radio. That's not where most people get into bands anymore. Its online.

+1.

I would have thought that genuine music fans would not rely on the radio for their music. Back in the 40's, 50's, and 60's we did not have a choice, but today........ ?