Lisbon: Not Voting?

someoneok

Those legal guarantees are no more binding than a broken zip.
Anyone who pedals this kind of thing is as dangerous as a Jack the ripper in relation to this monumental decision we have. They are not legal they are token gestures. If the treaty had of been changed the 27 member states would have had to agree and re ratify.
These jibes and falsies are more evidence of the yes campaign scaremongering and playing on the fears of the naive. Do you realise how dangerous you people are?

Sam Vimes

someoneok wrote: »

Those legal guarantees are no more binding than a broken zip.
Anyone who pedals this kind of thing is as dangerous as a Jack the ripper in relation to this monumental decision we have. They are not legal they are token gestures. If the treaty had of been changed the 27 member states would have had to agree and re ratify.
These jibes and falsies are more evidence of the yes campaign scaremongering and playing on the fears of the naive. Do you realise how dangerous you people are?

RedPlanet wrote: »

The guarantees are not contained the Treaty and, correct me if i am mistaken but are also not among the actual language of the referenda.
Therefore the "promised" guarantees are little more than air.

The first person to say something negative about this treaty that's 100% true gets a cookie. I predict a very mouldy cookie going in the bin in a few weeks

Sam Vimes

By which I mean:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055617733

Ireland and the Treaty of Lisbon

1. The European Council recalls that the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon requires ratification by each of the 27 Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. It reaffirms its wish to see the Treaty enter into force by the end of 2009.

2. Having carefully noted the concerns of the Irish people as set out by the Taoiseach, the European Council, at its meeting of 11-12 December 2008, agreed that, provided the Treaty of Lisbon enters into force, a decision would be taken, in accordance with the necessary legal procedures, to the effect that the Commission shall continue to include one national of each Member State.

3. The European Council also agreed that other concerns of the Irish people, as presented by the Taoiseach, relating to taxation policy, the right to life, education and the family, and Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality, would be addressed to the mutual satisfaction of Ireland and the other Member States, by way of the necessary legal guarantees. It was also agreed that the high importance attached to a number of social issues, including workers' rights, would be confirmed.

4. Against this background, the European Council has agreed on the following set of arrangements, which are fully compatible with the Treaty, in order to provide reassurance and to respond to the concerns of the Irish people:
(a) Decision of the Heads of State or Government of the 27 Member States of the European Union, meeting within the European Council, on the concerns of the Irish people on the Treaty of Lisbon (Annex 1);
(b) Solemn Declaration on Workers' Rights, Social Policy and other issues (Annex 2). The European Council has also taken cognisance of the unilateral declaration of Ireland (Annex 3), which will be associated with the Irish instrument of ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon.

5. Regarding the Decision in Annex 1, the Heads of State or Government have declared that:
(i) this Decision gives legal guarantee that certain matters of concern to the Irish people will be unaffected by the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon;
(ii) its content is fully compatible with the Treaty of Lisbon and will not necessitate any reratification of that Treaty;
(iii) the Decision is legally binding and will take effect on the date of entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon;
(iv) they will, at the time of the conclusion of the next accession Treaty, set out the provisions of the annexed Decision in a Protocol to be attached, in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements, to the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union;
(v) the Protocol will in no way alter the relationship between the EU and its Member States. The sole purpose of the Protocol will be to give full Treaty status to the clarifications set out in the Decision to meet the concerns of the Irish people. Its status will be no different from similar clarifications in Protocols obtained by other Member States. The Protocol will clarify but not change either the content or the application of the Treaty of Lisbon.

you're both wrong

jasonb

someoneok wrote: »

Do you realise how dangerous you people are?

I personally think that both sides have spent far too much time trying to scare voters and far too little time trying to convince them.

This 'you people' worries me. It seems impossible to have differences of opinions without 'us and them' getting involved. It's human nature I guess, just like 'us and foreign nationals' and 'private sector and public sector'.

I look forward to the economy growing again and Lisbon being decided on one way or the other, so I don't have to spend so much time trying to ignore scare tactics and petty-mindedness ( if that's a word! ) day after day.

J.

roosh

I didn't vote in the last referendum, but I feel that the onus is on the Yes campaign to show me why I should vote to make changes, because voting No means that the changes that are already scheduled to come in will come in as planned. Yes changes all this.

If we vote Yes we will reduce our voting rights in the Council of Ministers, and increase others voting rights, thereby doubly weakening our say in Europe. As we have such a small population we will be a weak ally to anyone in Europe, so trying to get people to back us will be increasingly difficult.

I also take exception to the way in which all the major political parties have handled this. They have tried to fob us off with rhetoric and fallacious arguments, much as the No side have. The difference is, that the next Irish government will be eleceted from the Yes campaigners, it won't be from the No campaigners. If we vote Yes, we will be letting them know that lack of open discussion and debate is perfectly fine, that telling us lies and trying to scare us into supporting their cause, is an acceptible means of doing poilitics in this country.

That is why I am going to have to vote No

Euro_Kraut

RedPlanet wrote: »

Better chance of a different government sitting.
Less chance of yeilding referenda as a means to badger the electorate to force an unpopular constitutional change.

The 10 years is arbitrary then. If say those conditions could be met within a shorter time frame, say 8 years, would it be acceptable?

Also, do you think in light of this that the constitution should be amended to restrict the ability of Dail Eireann to propose similar constitutional changers within a certain time period?

RedPlanet

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

The 10 years is arbitrary then.

No and No.
And, a BIG NO TO LISBON

Euro_Kraut

RedPlanet wrote: »

No and No.
And, a BIG NO TO LISBON

That makes no sense.

someoneok

Sam Vimes wrote: »

By which I mean:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055617733

you're both wrong

Can you show me which part of the actual script of the Lisbon Treaty was changed from the last time, unless part of boards.ie is now a part of the text? NOTHING IN THIS HAS CHANGED. If it had of changed and and legal nonsense would have had to be agreed on by all 27 member states. This fact is irrefutable as those guarantees are not worth the oxygen used on them and people like you need to stop with this lie. Do you work in the government?

someoneok

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The first person to say something negative about this treaty that's 100% true gets a cookie. I predict a very mouldy cookie going in the bin in a few weeks

EU law supersedes Irish laws if ratified. Thats just one. There are many. Too many. Can I have my cookie now?

ei.sdraob

someoneok wrote: »

EU law supersedes Irish laws if ratified. Thats just one. There are many. Too many. Can I have my cookie now?

ffs

EU law supersedes Irish law in certain areas since 1973 when we joined

this doesnt change under Lisbon


you dont deserve a cookie for not doing your homework

/

Euro_Kraut

someoneok wrote: »

EU law supersedes Irish laws if ratified.

Really? Where does it say that?

Sam Vimes

someoneok wrote: »

Can you show me which part of the actual script of the Lisbon Treaty was changed from the last time, unless part of boards.ie is now a part of the text? NOTHING IN THIS HAS CHANGED. If it had of changed and and legal nonsense would have had to be agreed on by all 27 member states. This fact is irrefutable as those guarantees are not worth the oxygen used on them and people like you need to stop with this lie. Do you work in the government?

Firstly, while it's on boards, that's the text from the European council. Now, I'll give you an irrefutable fact:

NOTHING HAS CHANGED BECAUSE THE BULLSH!T THAT WE THOUGHT WAS IN THE TREATY WAS NEVER IN THE FUCKING THING.

We were lied to by extremists and our government had to go to Europe and tell them that the Irish people had been fooled and they needed guarantees that all of these lies were in fact lies. And now that we've got the guarantees people won't fucking believe them. We're making retards out of ourselves and it makes me ashamed to be Irish.

Sam Vimes

someoneok wrote: »

EU law supersedes Irish laws if ratified. Thats just one. There are many. Too many. Can I have my cookie now?

FAIL


EU law already supersedes ours. Next

oscarBravo

Calm down, Sam. Ta.