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The truth about "Lisbon Treaty": See the complete movie on YouTube!

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    #2
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    It has nothing to do with the EU whether you have a referednum or not.

    Do you understand that point?


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    #3
    ART6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭ART6


    Dinner wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with the EU whether you have a referednum or not.

    Do you understand that point?

    I understand democracy, and Lisbon ain't it. I will not vote for any organisation that has not passed an audit in 14 years.


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    #4
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Anyone care to post a quick synopsis?

    I lost interest after the term 'bureaucratic dictatorship.'


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    #5
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Juergenhaag wrote: »
    I request You: YOU ARE THE ONLY NATION who is allowed to VOTE !
    PLEASE VOTE "NO" - for free European Nations !! [/B]
    Get your own referendum. Honestly, even our little constitution requires it, you'd think one as developed as the Grundgesetz would have required it but apparently not. I'd suggest that as your next change. Then you can enjoy the same democracy as the Irish to. Good luck with that.

    I've no interest in watching your video, I'm not voting on behalf of anyone in Germany.


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    #6
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    ART6 wrote: »
    I understand democracy, and Lisbon ain't it. I will not vote for any organisation that has not passed an audit in 14 years.

    As Scofflaw pointed out in another thread the EU has very high standards and even something as small as a farmer forgetting to fill in a 1 box on a form counts as in 'irregularity'. Somebody will probably be able to explain it better than me, but it's purely administration errors and not some high corruption within the EU.

    But the point that I was asking the OP if he understood was how countries ratify treaties has nothing to do with the EU. They have no say in it. We have a referendum because we must. Italy has none because it's illegal, other countries don't have one because it's not required.


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    #7
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Dinner wrote: »
    As Scofflaw pointed out in another thread the EU has very high standards and even something as small as a farmer forgetting to fill in a 1 box on a form counts as in 'irregularity'. Somebody will probably be able to explain it better than me, but it's purely administration errors and not some high corruption within the EU.

    But the point that I was asking the OP if he understood was how countries ratify treaties has nothing to do with the EU. They have no say in it. We have a referendum because we must. Italy has none because it's illegal, other countries don't have one because it's not required.

    Here you go. In Scofflaw's own words.


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    #8
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    sceptre wrote:
    I'm not voting on behalf of anyone in Germany.

    The German taxpayer's money built much of our infrastructure. We owe them the courtesy of listening to their opinions. I know I will be voting on October 2nd with the views of German taxpayers very much in my mind.
    http://www.teameurope.info/node/480


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    #9
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    O'Morris wrote: »
    The German taxpayer's money built much of our infrastructure. We owe them the courtesy of listening to their opinions. I know I will be voting on October 2nd with the views of German taxpayers very much in my mind.
    http://www.teameurope.info/node/480

    A recent Red C Poll showed the Irish people want to ratify Lisbon by a margin of nearly 2 to 1, will you be keeping their views very much in mind too?


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    #10
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    A recent Red C Poll showed the Irish people want to ratify Lisbon by a margin of nearly 2 to 1, will you be keeping their views very much in mind too?

    I won't. Irish people have a vote and so they can make their voice heard at the ballot box. The Germans and British and Dutch and French and Scandinavian taxpayers whose contributions did so much to build up Ireland's infrastructure do not have a vote. Out of a sense of gratitude for what they have done for our country I will be voting with their views of the Lisbon treaty very much in my mind.


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    #11
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    O'Morris wrote: »
    I won't. Irish people have a vote and so they can make their voice heard at the ballot box. The Germans and British and Dutch and French and Scandinavian taxpayers whose contributions did so much to build up Ireland's infrastructure do not have a vote. Out of a sense of gratitude for what they have done for our country I will be voting with their views of the Lisbon treaty very much in my mind.

    Honest question. If opinion polls in those countries showed even a slim majority for 'yes' would you vote yes?


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    #12
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote:
    Honest question. If opinion polls in those countries showed even a slim majority for 'yes' would you vote yes?

    No, I wouldn't. It wouldn't make any difference to me if 95% of Europe's population were in favour of the treaty, I would still vote no because I don't want to see any further transfer of power to the EU. The fact that there is evidence that people in other EU countries would vote no only reinforces my view that the Lisbon treaty needs to be voted down.


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    #13
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    O'Morris wrote: »
    The German taxpayer's money built much of our infrastructure. We owe them the courtesy of listening to their opinions. I know I will be voting on October 2nd with the views of German taxpayers very much in my mind.
    http://www.teameurope.info/node/480

    You realize that poll was done by a communist magazine? It is from the newspaper of the East German socialist establishment.

    Do you regard that as a reputable source?


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    #14
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    O'Morris wrote: »
    No, I wouldn't. It wouldn't make any difference to me if 95% of Europe's population were in favour of the treaty, I would still vote no because I don't want to see any further transfer of power to the EU. The fact that there is evidence that people in other EU countries would vote no only reinforces my view that the Lisbon treaty needs to be voted down.

    Fair enough, so it doesn't actually alter your vote at all, thanks for the answer. You can now understand why I am voting yes, despite what random Germans, Danes or anyone else posts on boards.ie


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    #15
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    Euro_Kraut wrote:
    You realize that poll was done by a communist magazine? It is from the newspaper of the East German socialist establishment.

    Do you regard that as a reputable source?

    Are you sure the poll was carried out by Neues Deutschland? The article I linked to it only mentions that Neus Deutschland reports on the speculation about a call for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. It doesn't say that the magazine carried out any poll. It says the poll on the Lisbon treaty was initiated by members of the left party in the German Bundestag.

    You forgot about the other poll as well which found that 73% of Germans agree that the EU takes too many powers from Germany. That poll was carried out by one of the leading German market research and polling institutes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsa_institute

    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote:
    You can now understand why I am voting yes, despite what random Germans, Danes or anyone else posts on boards.ie

    The opinions of these random Germans or Danes can not be easily dismissed though. Their taxes helped build up our infrastructure and so we owe it to them to listen to their views on a treaty that they will not have a chance to vote on.


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    #16
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    O'Morris wrote: »
    Are you sure the poll was carried out by Neues Deutschland? The article I linked to it only mentions that Neus Deutschland reports on the speculation about a call for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. It doesn't say that the magazine carried out any poll. It says the poll on the Lisbon treaty was initiated by members of the left party in the German Bundestag.

    You forgot about the other poll as well which found that 73% of Germans agree that the EU takes too many powers from Germany. That poll was carried out by one of the leading German market research and polling institutes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsa_institute

    The opinions of these random Germans or Danes can not be easily dismissed though. Their taxes helped build up our infrastructure and so we owe it to them to listen to their views on a treaty that they will not have a chance to vote on.

    Except that, as you've already said, you're only interested in listening to the views of those Germans whose views correspond to your own.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #17
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    O'Morris wrote: »
    Are you sure the poll was carried out by Neues Deutschland? The article I linked to it only mentions that Neus Deutschland reports on the speculation about a call for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. It doesn't say that the magazine carried out any poll. It says the poll on the Lisbon treaty was initiated by members of the left party in the German Bundestag.

    You forgot about the other poll as well which found that 73% of Germans agree that the EU takes too many powers from Germany. That poll was carried out by one of the leading German market research and polling institutes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsa_institute


    The opinions of these random Germans or Danes can not be easily dismissed though. Their taxes helped build up our infrastructure and so we owe it to them to listen to their views on a treaty that they will not have a chance to vote on.

    You yourself would dismiss them if they disagreed with you, we're both voting according to our own conscience and convictions, as we should be.


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    #18
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    Scofflaw wrote:
    Except that, as you've already said, you're only interested in listening to the views of those Germans whose views correspond to your own.

    Absolutely not, I've never said that I'm only interesting in listening to the views of anti-Lisbon Germans.

    We would not have the quality of infrastructure we have today were it not for the contributions made by the German taxpayers. We owe it to them to listen to their views.
    http://www.teameurope.info/node/480
    poll undertaken by the Institute Forsa says that 73 percent of Germans agree that “the EU takes too many powers from Germany”.

    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote:
    You yourself would dismiss them if they disagreed with you, we're both voting according to our own conscience and convictions, as we should be.

    Genau.

    All I'm saying is that we should listen to their views, not that that we should let them make up our minds for us.


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    #19
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    O'Morris wrote: »
    Genau.

    All I'm saying is that we should listen to their views, not that that we should let them make up our minds for us.

    Didn't you just say you'd ignore their views, if an opinion poll showed the majority were in favour of Lisbon?


  • Options
    #20
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    O'Morris wrote: »
    The German taxpayer's money built much of our infrastructure. We owe them the courtesy of listening to their opinions.
    Not when we're voting we don't. I actually don't have to listen to anyone else's opinion when voting at any time. The fact that I've read the treaty, understand it and have an opinion on it is a bonus but what Klaus in Munich or Martin in London (or O'Morris or whoever in wherever) thinks of the treaty doesn't matter a damn to me. Let them have their own vote. If they don't get one, that's a problem with their state, not with mine. Their country decided under its own law whether to approve or reject the treaty, the least they could do is have the common politeness to keep schtum when we're doing likewise. That's democracy. If theirs isn't as developed as ours, that's their problem. Their country gets opinion for one country, not two. They had theirs, we're having ours. That's the way it is.

    I don't care who paid for the roads when I'm voting - because if I did I'd probably automatically vote yes purely because of the road funding as it came via the EU (the EU gave us the funding, the German taxpayer didn't make that call) and I'd prefer instead to make my voting decision based on the actual treaty like a rational person.


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    #21
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    Hmmm... let's run all those comments together...
    O'Morris wrote: »
    The German taxpayer's money built much of our infrastructure. We owe them the courtesy of listening to their opinions. I know I will be voting on October 2nd with the views of German taxpayers very much in my mind.

    Originally Posted by PopeBuckfastXVI
    Honest question. If opinion polls in those countries showed even a slim majority for 'yes' would you vote yes?
    O'Morris wrote: »
    No, I wouldn't. It wouldn't make any difference to me if 95% of Europe's population were in favour of the treaty, I would still vote no because I don't want to see any further transfer of power to the EU. The fact that there is evidence that people in other EU countries would vote no only reinforces my view that the Lisbon treaty needs to be voted down.
    O'Morris wrote: »
    Absolutely not, I've never said that I'm only interesting in listening to the views of anti-Lisbon Germans.

    We would not have the quality of infrastructure we have today were it not for the contributions made by the German taxpayers. We owe it to them to listen to their views.

    All I'm saying is that we should listen to their views, not that that we should let them make up our minds for us.

    So... if I understand you. You feel it's important to listen to the views of our European colleagues... but then to ignore them. You hope that they would vote no so that you can feel better about your no, and I assume you'll feel bad if they wanted a yes?

    Ix.


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    #22
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    O'Morris wrote: »
    Are you sure the poll was carried out by Neues Deutschland? The article I linked to it only mentions that Neus Deutschland reports on the speculation about a call for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. It doesn't say that the magazine carried out any poll. It says the poll on the Lisbon treaty was initiated by members of the left party in the German Bundestag.

    Who are the party of the former socialist regime in East Germany. Do you regard a poll they initiate and published in the mouthpiece of GDR's and the Stasi as being reputable?


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    #23
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Do people really not see any distinction between commercial polling companies, whose business relies on their reputation for actually producing reliable results, and these 'surveys' conducted by political and/or amateur groups?

    Did nobody study Statistics at any point?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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