Ultra Street Fighter 4 Discussion Thread

Orim · 26-11-2009 4:59am

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Don't quote me as if I said the entire game = the masher wins, I was specifically talking about the situation of person A going for a meaty attack on person B who's going for wake up reversal in SF3 v SF4. SF3 = person with better timing wins, SF4 = person mashing wins. I don't think this is a good thing. I'm not saying 'waaaaah, I can't beat someone cause he's mashing' obviously in sf4 you just don't go for a meaty, I'm saying i'd rather it be down to who has better input timing. I think that's a reasonable thing to say tbh.

It's not true though. For example with Blanka a well-timed cross-up meaty J.Mk will beat nearly every reversal in the game (even with the dreaded auto-correct). The timing aspect is still there for the meaty attack but has been removed from the reversal. Which is fair enough because knock-downs are still powerful despite easy reversals.

Dreddybajs · 26-11-2009 5:05am

That's not the way it works in SF4 either though. You don't have to be a genius not to try a meaty vs a DP-happy player with a 3-frame DP in a game with a billion reversal frames. Also I would consider fadc>ultra an extremely standard thing in SF4 - but what I was saying is you can't compare the meaty/reversal system honestly to SF4 because of the parry system's much better options. In SF3 if you're good (and really there's no point in talking about the game mechanics in terms of people who aren't good at the game) knockdown isn't really that big a deal in terms of option limiting because you always have a 1/3rd chance of escaped with low parry, high parry, throw tech. It's relevant because any good 3S player should have been doing that as wakeup options (or generally blocking if they couldn't parry properly).

In SF4 the reversal window is too large imo (which is also afaik what creates the autocorrect problems people have), but when you're talking about people mashing out of blockstrings - yes, it's a problem, but honestly if they're the type of player to be mashing all the time juststop pressing buttons and you get a free punish.

If you're making a comparison it makes much more sense to compare it to ST, where it's a lot safer to meaty if you know the timing because the opponent only has one reversal frame and even then only 6 frames to execute a DP.

edit: Cunny it's a completely unfair comparison in your edit due to the fact that it's not hard AT ALL to reversal in 3S (it's a middle ground between SF4 and ST pretty much), DPs are in generally better (afaik) hitbox-wise in SF4, and the 3S player should be parrying instead of DPing. Also it's not "just don't go for a meaty", once they've whiffed a few reversal DPs, and gotten punished, they should be more wary of throwing them out, and then you're back to being able to throw meaties out again. This is the paper-rock-scissors situation in every decent fighting game.

Cunny-Funt · 26-11-2009 6:08am

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Also I would consider fadc>ultra an extremely standard thing in SF4 -

So do I , I was saying, pulling off a full parry in SF3 is not a standard thing, like pulling of an fadc > ultra is a standard thing in SFIV.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

but what I was saying is you can't compare the meaty/reversal system honestly to SF4 because of the parry system's much better options.

But I'm not talking about parrys, I don't want parrys in SF4, I'm talking about input timing versus mashing. Regardless of any other factor in either games, I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather a game reward you for inputing better then the other guy instead of mashing. Its that simple.

You bringing up play tactics for punishing people who mash has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, I know all this. I'm talking about two people attacking at the same time, one mashes, one perfectly times his input, in my opinion it should be the guy that timed it right that lands the hit, not the masher. Regardless of the other options/mind games that can be played.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

In SF3 if you're good (and really there's no point in talking about the game mechanics in terms of people who aren't good at the game) knockdown isn't really that big a deal in terms of option limiting because you always have a 1/3rd chance of escaped with low parry, high parry, throw tech. It's relevant because any good 3S player should have been doing that as wakeup options (or generally blocking if they couldn't parry properly).

Okay so I've scored a knockdown on a guy and dash in for a meaty low.mk >H.SRK > super. Guy does a wake up parry, and parrys the low mk, then eats the rest of the combo. Lets say he's very good and fully expected a meaty super and is able to full parry when ever he wants.. but expects a low.mk into super, thus still eats the super cause he didn't predict the SRK in there.

Well maybe the guy decides to wake up super himself, and has better timing then me, oh noes, now its me that eats a super. Parrying doesn't make 3s this easy straight forward mindless game where the only option anyone needs is to parry. And another thing, you can't mash out parries either, yet another thing that needs good timing.

bush · 26-11-2009 11:18am

I agree with cunny about the mashing. Its really annoying and puts me off learning and using harder combos. Its really offputting when you spend some time in training learning a combo and then you get mashed dp the first time you try it. I think whats the point? The worst thing is it favours dp characters so much, charge characters cant mash.

Sagat06 · 26-11-2009 11:39am

Hugo in the background... will he be playable though?? I hope not!!

A-Trak · 26-11-2009 11:48am

Sagat06 wrote: »

Hugo in the background... will he be playable though?? I hope not!!

Ken B will be getting very excited about this....

K.O.Kiki · 26-11-2009 12:16pm

I see Hugo got himself a real job. Guess he's gotta keep Poison* off the streets somehow!

Also, nothing is more disheartening than being caught in a reversal Gief Ultra

*has a p0n0s

bush · 26-11-2009 1:20pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

I see Hugo got himself a real job.

Ye nice outfit for some construction work too.

Dreddybajs · 26-11-2009 2:30pm

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

So do I , I was saying, pulling off a full parry in SF3 is not a standard thing, like pulling of an fadc > ultra is a standard thing in SFIV.

Ah apologies misread what you were saying.

But I'm not talking about parrys, I don't want parrys in SF4, I'm talking about input timing versus mashing. Regardless of any other factor in either games, I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather a game reward you for inputing better then the other guy instead of mashing. Its that simple.

What I was saying is that 3S isn't a great example due to the relative unimportance of the reversal system in 3s, which is why I brought up ST. Also reversals are still easy in 3S too even without "mashing" or whatever. Personally I don't think that reversals should be particularly hard either, as it's a fundamental element of the mixup game which I think should come more down to mindgames than strict execution requirements (and I say this while loving ST where I can barely reversal 50% of the time). Also if you're going for a lot of meaties vs a character with a 3-frame DP, I'd hardly call the inputting "better" than his. :pac:

You bringing up play tactics for punishing people who mash has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, I know all this. I'm talking about two people attacking at the same time, one mashes, one perfectly times his input, in my opinion it should be the guy that timed it right that lands the hit, not the masher. Regardless of the other options/mind games that can be played.

It's a lot easier to perfectly time a reversal DP in 3S than it is to perfectly time a meaty as well. Honestly doing reversals reliably hasn't been a problem in any game since the 2 series (though that said I haven't played much alpha/a lot of the more obscure capcom fighters). Honestly with regard to reversals in SF4 what annoys me is the huge timing window because it leads to such insane autocorrecting, not the ability to mash them out.

With blockstrings it's a different matter, there, mashing them out becomes a lot more important and really changes the risk/reward game with regard to tight link combos etc. - however, again, rather than changing the mashing, I think a better solution to this would be to stop autoblock being so good in SF4. If you're frantically mashing out f,df,f and wailing on the punch buttons, I really don't think that you should be able to keep blocking the combo. imo changing that rather than the ease of the dragon punch motion (which is what this comes down to really - though obviously 360s can be mashed out too, and changing auto block would also help vs. that and other reversals). I can't see any downside to fixing it that way, whereas making inputs stricter makes it tougher for new people to get into the game, and on a personal level I prefer games with lower execution requirements (obviously this is just personal preference but I don't know many people who think that making vital and simple moves ridiculously hard to do is what makes a fighting game fun).

Parrying doesn't make 3s this easy straight forward mindless game where the only option anyone needs is to parry. And another thing, you can't mash out parries either, yet another thing that needs good timing.

I didn't say that 3S is mindless due to parrying, in fact I think it creates a fair amount of complexity due to the amount of OS parry situations exist. That's not my opinion of 3S at all and I don't think I inferred that it was in my post. It does however completely change the metagame compared to other street fighters, especially with regard to the wakeup game - what I was pointing out was that I thought your analogy to it was weak due to the relative unimportance of reversals in the game compared to SF4. It's like comparing the effect of chip damage in SF4 to that in MVC2 - the games are played completely differently, and I don't think it's a great argument to just directly compare a specific element of FG mechanics in that way (I realise though that you were just talking about timing now).

Azza · 26-11-2009 2:56pm

I remember David Sirlin commenting on this, he felt in ST that reversals where too hard but thats what made meaty attacks and cross ups so viable. In SF 4 reversals are viable but meaty attack and cross ups are not. He preferred the ST implementation because having 2 viable options was better than having 1. If I can remember correctly I think he said he wished there was an inbetween but wasn't sure if that was possible.

It is pretty infuriating to have people mash out moves during missed combo links. With Ryu, Sagat and to a lesser extent Ken the DP's set up there ultras for high damage. Zangief is another who can land massive damage with or without ultra meter merely by mashing and punishing a link missed by 1 or 2 frames. I would not mind if all characters had these options but only a few do.

There is very few true block strings in SF IV either, as most moves only give +1 or 2 frames on block and pretty much all the fastest moves in the game come out in 3 frames so there is nearly always a gap. Makes it easier to get the reversal out. Perhaps rather than decrease the easy reversals, more frame advantage on block would work better.

Cunny-Funt · 26-11-2009 9:17pm

Sigh I had replied to all this and hit some button on my KB that closed the window, so now I gotta type it all again, aaaaaaaargh!

Btw that pic of cody looks terrible, I think currently cody is the shltist looking character in the game.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Also reversals are still easy in 3S too even without "mashing" or whatever. Personally I don't think that reversals should be particularly hard either,

I know this, this is why I was saying 3s had the perfect balance of ease of reversals versus ease of meaties.

I'm not saying I want reversals to be impossible to do at all. I'm just saying its too
much of a no brainer in SFIV.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Also if you're going for a lot of meaties vs a character with a 3-frame DP, I'd hardly call the inputting "better" than his. :pac:

I learned the 1st day I played SF4 not to go for meaties (as ryu for eg) unless with a fireball, or I think the guy is going to jump/go for throw etc etc.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

It's a lot easier to perfectly time a reversal DP in 3S than it is to perfectly time a meaty as well.

I know, once again why I used 3s as an example. And if the guy doing the meaty is better at his input timing then the guy doing the reversal, even though the reversal is easier, the guy doing the meaty will land the hit. Rightfully so.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Honestly with regard to reversals in SF4 what annoys me is the huge timing window because it leads to such insane autocorrecting, not the ability to mash them out.

I agree this is my issue, when I'm using the term meatie I'm talking about how thats all the player needs to do 'because' of the huge window he has..

Make the window more like 3s I say.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

With blockstrings it's a different matter,[.....] rather than changing the mashing, I think a better solution to this would be to stop autoblock being so good in SF4. If you're frantically mashing out f,df,f and wailing on the punch buttons, I really don't think that you should be able to keep blocking the combo.

Again, I agree and clarify that this is what I'm talking about, the player doesn't have to think, just mash away freely. When someone's trying a block string on me and I'm playing well, I watch for the opening then quickly mash DP (whether I enter it in once precisely or twice I dunno, I don't watch my hands ) but if I land the hit, for all the other guy knows, I was just sitting there mindlessly mashing DP the whole time. This annoys me, cause I may as well be doing that instead of trying to play smart which other SF's taught me.

And I'd rather have a guy knock me outta my combo for playing smart and not mashing away the entire time too.

I think we'd all agree there. Its the elements of SF4 that allow for 'mindless' mashing with out having to worry about it that I want to remove or changed to be more like they were in 3s (as an example)

Azza wrote: »

I remember David Sirlin commenting on this, he felt in ST that reversals where too hard but thats what made meaty attacks and cross ups so viable. In SF 4 reversals are viable but meaty attack and cross ups are not. He preferred the ST implementation because having 2 viable options was better than having 1. If I can remember correctly I think he said he wished there was an inbetween but wasn't sure if that was possible.

3s :cool:

dreamers75 · 27-11-2009 9:04pm

http://kotaku.com/5413736/street-fighter-ivs-new-guys-in-action

new guys.

gotta go change pants now

Jim · 27-11-2009 9:08pm

dreamers75 wrote: »

http://kotaku.com/5413736/street-fighter-ivs-new-guys-in-action

new guys.

gotta go change pants now

Was already posted

You got my hopes up! :pac:

L31mr0d · 28-11-2009 12:52pm

New Info

http://www.capcom-unity.com/jgonzo/blog/2009/11/27/super_street_fighter_iv_new_art__screenshots_for_cody_adon_and_guy

btw, I have the HD original PSD's of those first 3 artworks if anyone wants them. Just give me a location I can drop them (they are around 100MB each)

JohnMc1 · 29-11-2009 2:31pm

Is it just me or does Adon sound like he's voiced by Mark Hamill?

Cunny-Funt · 29-11-2009 5:27pm

Some people on srk have been saying the same thing. I dunno if he is or not though.

JohnMc1 · 29-11-2009 5:52pm

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

Some people on srk have been saying the same thing. I dunno if he is or not though.

It sounds very much like Mark Hamill so I will be shocked if it isn't. I also heard the Johnny Yong Bosh [Adam the MMPR Black Ranger #2] voicing Cody rumors as well.

animaX · 29-11-2009 6:51pm

Guys voice reminds me a lot of C. Jack from ex plus alpha

JohnMc1 · 29-11-2009 7:01pm

Gamestop.com has the game listed as shipping March 31st 2010.

http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=76129

Please note that this is the US website so we way get it a couple of days later.

Dreddybajs · 29-11-2009 7:04pm

Until an official release date has been announced I wouldn't pay too much heed to what retail websites say. Or has there been an official release date?

JohnMc1 · 29-11-2009 7:08pm

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Until an official release date has been announced I wouldn't pay too much heed to what retail websites say. Or has there been an official release date?

I don't think there has been but Gamestop is usually good. A prediction of Q1 2010 was given. I can see that being the actual date since SF4 just came out this past Feb so an March-April release sounds about right.