Ultra Street Fighter 4 Discussion Thread

Sisko

Lads who are worried about that makoto combo (in other words people who never played 3s properly)

I played 3s online for 2 years and while at my peak I was far better at 3s then I would be now, my 'general' street fighter play would have been much worse. I've learned a lot since then.

So having said that, while I didnt play as makoto myself, I encountered many, many makotos. & never had much of a problem.

I enjoyed fighting makoto for the most part. & any half decent makoto would be trying to land that shit out you. Was always impressive when they did but you could read it coming from a mile away.

- 1st of all:
it comes from a wall jump super which from what I understood aimed for a different part of the stage depending on what button was used. Thus even moving around would wreck her head. & many a time I would easily avoid the super by dashing. Leaving her open.

- 2nd of all:
the player had to do all that shit manually meaning they had to have perfect execution timing and spacing to land all that juggle stuff she has after the super. Makotos would often miss time one aspect of this. Depended on the player. Also they'd usually end it with a ground fist slam which was blockable/parryable if you knew it was coming.....which you did.

- 3rd of all, this is her ultra 2 in SF4 , I don't see people being able to do juggle combos after an ultra in this meaning she wont even have that combo bush posted anymore.

What you guys should really be worried about regarding makoto is lag. Some of her normals were fucking hacks if a game with any sort of lag and everyone knew this and makoto players would thus , abuse this if it was a laggy game.

chopperbyrne

Hax indeed, since when is cr.RH a standing Chuck Norris style roundhouse kick?!!!

bush

RopeDrink wrote: »

Least I have no fear of any of them and I presume Ibuki, Juri (EDIT: Yes I know she's not a 3S character) and maybe Makoto will have reduced Stamina etc to make up for their speed and moveset

More like they have reduced stamina just cos they are girls :pac:

Sisko

HMUYA was saying chun will have 1000 health like ryu etc in ssf4

bush

Nice, chun li is looking good for super.

Ramza

Sisko wrote: »

- 1st of all:
it comes from a wall jump super which from what I understood aimed for a different part of the stage depending on what button was used. Thus even moving around would wreck her head. & many a time I would easily avoid the super by dashing. Leaving her open.

- 2nd of all:
the player had to do all that shit manually meaning they had to have perfect execution timing and spacing to land all that juggle stuff she has after the super. Makotos would often miss time one aspect of this. Depended on the player. Also they'd usually end it with a ground fist slam which was blockable/parryable if you knew it was coming.....which you did.

- 3rd of all, this is her ultra 2 in SF4 , I don't see people being able to do juggle combos after an ultra in this meaning she wont even have that combo bush posted anymore.

What you guys should really be worried about regarding makoto is lag. Some of her normals were fucking hacks if a game with any sort of lag and everyone knew this and makoto players would thus , abuse this if it was a laggy game.

1) Moving around wouldn't make **** of a difference to a decent Makoto. Because no decent Makoto player would just do point blank super like :pac: It has to be setup, and the best and probably only feasable way to do so is to karakusa, then st.fierce xx super. The spacing has to be right though, for the super to connect. You have to make sure that you're behind the clock on top of the screen.

2) You don't need perfect execution, it's not even that hard tbh. If you have semi decent execution you could do it. What do you mean by ground fist slam? And how in the hell would you parry it if you're being juggled :pac:

Wouldn't worry too much about the lag thing, you can pretty much apply it to any character

The way I see it is that people are just bitching. If you bitch about one thing you'll bitch the alternative. And I know the people who are exp with 3s are at least happy to have some returning 3s cast members(even if said players didn't like Makoto/Dud/Ibuki). No one seems to be bitching about Dud, as far as I can see, 'cause I think people relate Makoto to maybe high stun combos, cheap etc. Like I said you can say that about any character and I'm sure we could fill more than a thousand pages of bitching about characters.

To the complainers I say go and play 3s for a few months and get experienced with the game and maybe watch some matches or something, there's nothing wrong with Makoto the way I see it, you need to put in the work with her to get the benefits of her character. (And again such can be said about any character)

I'm sure to the exp SFIV players there are come characters who probably really annoy you. But I think if you haven't played much 3s or you don't know the info on the characters etc then you're jsut getting worked up over nothing. It's all relative

Sisko

Yeah your right about the set up, but its the same story you know makoto is going to try and grab you to set this up, you can see it coming. its been over a year at this stage since I've fought a makoto in 3s so my memory is sketchy but I do remember being able to block a ground smash thingy this makoto would try after the juggle when I've landed on the ground.

I'm not worried about the lag thing, t'was just an amusing quirk that made makoto annoying to many on 3s online. There was never any compliaints about her super + combo , it was only ever her "lag abuse"


& indeed , really its like people who never played as akuma, and if akuma was never in SF4, posting vids about akumas raging demon from sf3 or alpha saying "oh shit this game is gonna be crap, look at this character, dial in a few buttons and your dead"

And all the videos are of demonstrations where the other character is just standing there taking it. In the context of the match its not so straight forward to land.

Anyway once again, she doesnt have this super in sf4 its her ultra. so I dunno. I'd say the reason they didnt give it to her in this is due to the focus attack system. All she'd have to do is land a focus on you in this. Making things much easier.

Orim

Ramza wrote: »

No offense but I don't really see the validity of your argument. What do you mean by problems?

I'm not so much putting forward an argument, as voicing my concern of what could potentially happen when characters from such a different game are brought in. If I was able to fully expand on the problems that could in a complex game design like this then I wouldn't be unemployed at the moment. As a very basic example I will give you this : In order to keep the essence of the 3s characters, Capcom decide to increase the damage. This gets through to release and we now have a game in which anything above a 3 hit combo is worthless. I am using hyberbole here.

Ramza wrote: »

It's not like they were seriously overpowered, broken or had any flaws which anyone would consider problems in 3s. First off the first video you posted is just Makoto man, that's her! It just so happens Gouki has the worst stun and stamina in 3s so it's a really terrible match for Gouki

That's the crux of the issue. We are not talking about 3s. We are talking about Street Fighter 4 which is a very different game with a very different engine. For example while I not like the some of the Alpha, I'm not worried about those characters as the engines were closer to each. (Minus the custom combos but I'm sure the removal of CCs will find some fans here.)

BTW the video Bush posted was of a Ryu getting very nearly killed by one combo and I would assume Ryu has average health/stun. Yet this is okay in 3s? Grand, I don't care. Compare to 4 - Sagat has a high kick that juggles into a combo that does 50/60%(?) damage. Yet a highly requested change for super is to get rid of that high kick juggle property. There is some issues with this comparsion but it's the first that came into my head.

Ramza wrote: »

Like I said, Mak is all about SA2(for the most matchup part), and landing a big stun combo off of it, accompanied with a really good mixup game and you've got Makoto pretty much. So really you can't expect anything to change, in the greater scheme of the characters, cause that would just be really stupid, imo. I totally and wholeheartedly agree that adding characters from a different game and designing them as accurate as possible as to fit the current engine might obv lead to some thing being changed. But obv the essence of the characters will be there, and jusdging by the videos and feedback Capcom have done a pretty tight job

There's no way how characters will be based on videos and limited feedback that is all is based on incomplete builds of game. Blanka was considered solidly top tier in SF4 for a couple of months after release.

Ramza wrote: »

It's just like Urien, for example, he's all about the Unblockable mainly, but to say it's a problem I wouldn't really agree. You can pretty much point out "problems" for any character if you take the time too :pac:

Ibuki's Ibuki ; very low stamina and stun, but has a great mixup game and an effective rushdown

Mak's Mak ; mid stamina IIRC, high stun combos, great command grab (which leads to a plethora of different things), a really good mixup game and high damaging options

Dud's Dud ; high stamina/stun, a LOT of ways to connect/HC a super, a great overhead game, and pretty damn good damage potential. Also great mixup :pac:

It might seem like I'm repeating myself for each character but I think it's funny how Capom chose the three most mixup orientated characters in 3s to put into SF4 (imo anyway, there are other contenders but this is just my opinion)

My problem is not with a particular character as much as you seem to have taken it that way. My issue is with the difference between the game engines. I would be pointing out the same problems if they were bringing Remy across from the exact same reasons.
Oh and the only character in Capcom games you are fully justified in complaining about is ST Akuma. Anyone else and your just a scrub :pac:

Ramza wrote: »

Oh and the second video is pretty much impossible to do in a real match, it's impractical and is just for fun really, just showing what taunt(double damage pretty much), tanden renki (double damage again) vs a low stamina/stun opponent can do

Okay.

Ken B

Giving Chun Li a health boost would be ridiculous.....she has, along with Seth and Akuma, the most tools in the game. They may as well give her an uppercut.....oh wait....she already got Ex spinning bird kick...

Kirby

HMUYA wrote: »

Anyone else and your just a scrub :pac:
.

Off-topic but I despise that term in relation to fighting games. We don't need more idiotic american phrases perpetuated any more than they already are, even tongue in cheek. We are Irish after all.

Besides, the sentiment behind it is messed up. We were all beginners at one stage at its retarded that people throw that word around in every thread on srk where somebody has a different opinion to them.

With regard to chun, I don't have a major issue with her getting a HP boost. If word is to be believed, some of her normals are getting nerfed anyway. So she probably needs it.

Ramza

HMUYA wrote: »

I'm not so much putting forward an argument, as voicing my concern of what could potentially happen when characters from such a different game are brought in. If I was able to fully expand on the problems that could in a complex game design like this then I wouldn't be unemployed at the moment. As a very basic example I will give you this : In order to keep the essence of the 3s characters, Capcom decide to increase the damage. This gets through to release and we now have a game in which anything above a 3 hit combo is worthless. I am using hyberbole here.



That's the crux of the issue. We are not talking about 3s. We are talking about Street Fighter 4 which is a very different game with a very different engine. For example while I not like the some of the Alpha, I'm not worried about those characters as the engines were closer to each. (Minus the custom combos but I'm sure the removal of CCs will find some fans here.)

BTW the video Bush posted was of a Ryu getting very nearly killed by one combo and I would assume Ryu has average health/stun. Yet this is okay in 3s? Grand, I don't care. Compare to 4 - Sagat has a high kick that juggles into a combo that does 50/60%(?) damage. Yet a highly requested change for super is to get rid of that high kick juggle property. There is some issues with this comparsion but it's the first that came into my head.




There's no way how characters will be based on videos and limited feedback that is all is based on incomplete builds of game. Blanka was considered solidly top tier in SF4 for a couple of months after release.



My problem is not with a particular character as much as you seem to have taken it that way. My issue is with the difference between the game engines. I would be pointing out the same problems if they were bringing Remy across from the exact same reasons.
Oh and the only character in Capcom games you are fully justified in complaining about is ST Akuma. Anyone else and your just a scrub :pac:



Okay.

I can see what you mean. As far as the new characters tbh I'm not really too worried about it. Although it's a good point, about keeping the essence of the 3s characters. They are being ported into a new engine and Capcom I think want to do as accurate a job as possible, which is obviously desirable. I'm not trying to single out any of the 3s cast in this post but like you said in the SF4 engine it might lead to problems now that I think of it. Although I'm sure like you said Capcom will try their best to keep the essence so will try a re-balance and something else will go wrong.

I think with Makoto (singling out now :pac:), when you imagine how she'd do in SF4, based on 3s, her SF4 rendition (if kept accurate as possible) would be scary as ****. Like I think with no parry it's a totally different ball game in SF4 also her meaty game wont be as good in SF4 now aswell, which is kind of suckish in itself, but that is kind of good in a way too from a balance perspective.

Although I'm just saying the character conversion in itself is what's important as like Doom said, if characters were left unchanged then they wouldn't tie in with the game engine and it'd be a giant cluster****.

Oh and that combo on Ryu is insanely hard, it involves a kara fugikage which you need excellent execution to do. Oh and a good player would of mashed out of the dizzy, if they taunt. And without taunt I'm sure it wouldn't KO. Plus it uses two full meters so the chances of landing it are slim to none cause there are two many variables. Unless you grab your opponent at the start of a final round with two meters maybe.

Placebo

Ken B wrote: »

Giving Chun Li a health boost would be ridiculous.....she has, along with Seth and Akuma, the most tools in the game. They may as well give her an uppercut.....oh wait....she already got Ex spinning bird kick...

dont be silly ken, just cause she can bash vega up

Doctor DooM

Ken B wrote: »

Giving Chun Li a health boost would be ridiculous.....she has, along with Seth and Akuma, the most tools in the game. They may as well give her an uppercut.....oh wait....she already got Ex spinning bird kick...

You're seeing it from a vega point of view poor chun's tools aren't worth jack against Guile usually, and shotos can give her serious trouble.

Dreddybajs

Ryu has the most tools in the game anyway :pac:

bush

Chun li really needs the health boost. Ex sbk is really unreliable too, it looses to a lot of stuff.

Azza

Placebo wrote:

dont be silly ken, just cause she can bash vega up

Everyone in the game can bash Vega up.

Drebbybajs wrote:

Ryu has the most tools in the game

While Ryu is Mr verasatile I reckon Chun has as many tools and Seth and Akuma have argubly more. Sagat being somewhere similar to Ryu.

Doctor Doom wrote:

You're seeing it from a vega point of view poor chun's tools aren't worth jack against Guile usually, and shotos can give her serious trouble.

I suggest you play better Chun's :P
As far as I'm aware the only shoto that gives Chun trouble is Sagat and he gives everyone bar Akuma trouble.

Bush wrote:

Chun li really needs the health boost. Ex sbk is really unreliable too, it looses to a lot of stuff.

I be relunctant to see her get a health boost either, she already does easy and obscene damage off her ex.legs, she has both a great air game (wall jumps and air throw and that stupid neutral jump roundhouse) and excellent ground game with some of the best pokes in the game and oh so annoying mix up game (air target combo gives her the best direct jump in the game, plus an instant overhead and her flip kick over head and her damn command normal cross up).

Its already been confirmed that her ultra connects better from juggles so overall her damage is going be even better. With Sagat nerfs they only really need to look at her Gief, Rufus, Viper match ups because there the ones she struggles with. If her ex.sbk was bullet proof she would be next to impossible for none fireball character to crack. If she gets more health she needs a damage nerf to ex.legs at least.

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

I suggest you play better Chun's :P
As far as I'm aware the only shoto that gives Chun trouble is Sagat and he gives everyone bar Akuma trouble.

Well, ex boom makes the projectile game Guiles. You can even stop EX kikoken with two slow booms. Hassan kick usually misses over sonic boom as you can back off out of range immediately and knock down with sweep. Guile's air throw will beat out Chun's 9 times out of ten because she's in the 40 frame jump club with Bison. It's very difficult to catch Guile with Ultra through a boom because of his recovery. If you knock Chun down with no meter she's in alot of trouble on wake up. If Chun has meter you can usually bait out the ex legs or ex SBK and punish. Even when fighting Bush I would say I'd rather see him pick Chun than any of the other characters he plays.

Chun needs the big damage when she gets in on Guile because he'll back off all day.


Sound familiar?

(I am concerned about a health buff for her though when you take non projectile characters into consideration).

Ken B

Kirby wrote: »

Besides, the sentiment behind it is messed up. We were all beginners at one stage at its retarded that people throw that word around in every thread on srk where somebody has a different opinion to them.

.

Shouldn't that be 'retarted'.

Placebo wrote: »

dont be silly ken, just cause she can bash vega up

I admit, personal experiences may have influenced this comment...........:o

Azza

Guile really can't do crap to Chun when she has no meter and on the ground, he can't really do crap to anyone, his choice of pressure is throw a boom and try an overhead (usually if she blocks it low) or c.mk or c.hk (if she block the boom high), or else cross Chun up with his crappy jump.lk and try for a crappy combo. He can burn meter by fadc booms to countine combo's but his damage output is low.

Guiles air throw beats Chun's because it has considerable more range. Vega's also beats it.

Chun won't try and catch Guile with her Ultra when he sonic boom's, she will partly land it off ex.legs in the corner or set up ex.sbk with ex.legs. Her damage options when she gets in are much better than Guiles as is her mix up. She can also do what Guile does (only better) and use a fireball to knock him into block stun and then try to sweep him or perform her overhead flip kick (the ex.version does 200 damage).

Its not a bad match up for either character but its not one that Chun struggles with. A 5:5 match up.

Doctor DooM

Kirby wrote: »

Off-topic but I despise that term in relation to fighting games. We don't need more idiotic american phrases perpetuated any more than they already are, even tongue in cheek. We are Irish after all.

Besides, the sentiment behind it is messed up. We were all beginners at one stage at its retarded that people throw that word around in every thread on srk where somebody has a different opinion to them.

With regard to chun, I don't have a major issue with her getting a HP boost. If word is to be believed, some of her normals are getting nerfed anyway. So she probably needs it.

Scrub has a very specific meaning actually, it doesn't mean beginner, it means someone who makes up imaginary rules and decides certain moves are cheap and tactics cheating arbitrarily.

A scrub is someone who says "you shouldn't be allowed to do that" rather than "how can I beat that?"

The use of the term scrub for a beginner is incorrect. A beginner who is hungry to learn is in fact the opposite of a scrub!

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

Guile really can't do crap to Chun when she has no meter and on the ground, he can't really do crap to anyone, his choice of pressure is throw a boom and try an overhead (usually if she blocks it low) or c.mk or c.hk (if she block the boom high), or else cross Chun up with his crappy jump.lk and try for a crappy combo. He can burn meter by fadc booms to countine combo's but his damage output is low.

Guiles air throw beats Chun's because it has considerable more range. Vega's also beats it.

Chun won't try and catch Guile with her Ultra when he sonic boom's, she will partly land it off ex.legs in the corner or set up ex.sbk with ex.legs. Her damage options when she gets in are much better than Guiles as is her mix up. She can also do what Guile does (only better) and use a fireball to knock him into block stun and then try to sweep him or perform her overhead flip kick (the ex.version does 200 damage).

Its not a bad match up for either character but its not one that Chun struggles with. A 5:5 match up.

Ok, I accept your prognosis that I am simply much better than most Chun's I run into

Orim

While it's true that Chun has some great tools and in theory goes even against a most of the cast, her low health and damage output means that the chun player has to constantly be on top form.

I got to run but here's some good coverage on why Chun has problems

i really think that to win with chun you have to be like 1.5 times better than your opponent in a lot of matchups, if you and your opponent are evenly matched as far as wits are concerned... you lose imho.
comparatively speaking she just doesnt have the HP nor damage to realistically compete at the highest levels, she has ALL of the tools except for that oh so important one: MATH.
if you and your opponent are guessing correctly 50/50. chun loses by default cause of punishing and hp being a factor.


even if you are some combo guru that can hit cr.fp xx hk legs>mklegs into cr.fp xx hk legs>mklegs> cr.hk with an 80% consistency, other characters have far easier combos that they can do that are just as easy to setup that dont require anywhere near the skill to pull off, which means that on a totally math based foundation... we lose.
but i'm no longer "down" on chun, i've figured her out and i agree with people that she is indeed a decent character.

Placebo

health isnt too bad
ex sbk can get stuffed easily
she cant really do much to guiles booms or air throw him
she cant do much to cross ups
her ultra link from ex legs is pretty poor [and ex sbk one is quite tricky] cause it needs to be done in the corner and wiffs alot of characters

her mk is quite poor
her normal SBK is quite useless
her stomps are also pointless and only work with d.mk

super is pointless and shouldnt even exist

people need to play the characters is question rather than analyse them by just watching others.

Dreddybajs

Her super is absolute class, it comes out in 2 frames!

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Her super is absolute class, it comes out in 2 frames!

Which leaves her with no EX which is a bad place for Chun.

Dreddybajs

Wow, good point, I didn't realise that using your super took away your EX meter. :pac: It's very good in some matchups because you're able to punish basically anything with it (Balrog, Honda off the top of my head). It's very very far from "pointless" anyway, Farz is just biased cause he can't help burning all his meter on ex sbk 100% of the time

bush

I dont really think its too much to ask for ex sbk to work well seeing as your using a bar for it. It should either work or not, its taking a gamble every time ya use it.
Ex legs doesnt do that much damage either, 2 shorts ex legs only does about 200 damage. I think shes a decent character but not good enough to justify her low health. If she gets more health, better ex sbk, fix her ultra along with the new ultra she will be really good.

Azza

i really think that to win with chun you have to be like 1.5 times better than your opponent in a lot of matchups, if you and your opponent are evenly matched as far as wits are concerned... you lose imho

If thats from Shoryuken.com you could probably go into any forum for any character with the exception of Sagat and Ryu and you will probably here them say the same thing about the character for that forum.

The people who post there tend to play their characters in depth and understand the weakness of their own particular character more than people who play other characters which is only normal. They all tend to draw the same conclusions that they have the worst character flaws in the game. They have to play much harder for the win than the top tier characters. (This is only true in the case of Bison;))

Placebo wrote:

health isnt too bad
ex sbk can get stuffed easily
she cant really do much to guiles booms or air throw him
she cant do much to cross ups
her ultra link from ex legs is pretty poor [and ex sbk one is quite tricky] cause it needs to be done in the corner and wiffs alot of characters

her mk is quite poor
her normal SBK is quite useless
her stomps are also pointless and only work with d.mk

super is pointless and shouldnt even exist

people need to play the characters is question rather than analyse them by just watching others.

Ex.Sbk can be safed jump on wake up by certain characters, and can be stuffed by a jump in. However there is many varaiables to stuffing it. They need to make sure that they miss the first few frames which are invincible and then hit a gap in between the active phases of the moves (ex.sbk has several active and inactive phases to it). Its very hard to reliable stuff and even then it may only amount to a reset.

As for trouble with cross up, ex.sbk should take care of Guiles easy enough.
Guile doesn't have much in the way of mix up or damage.

He has cross up (one of the worst in the game) into tick throw, block string or weak combo, fireball trap mixup, throw or block string.

Compare that to Chuns options on Guile.
She could do a throw, a block string into overhead/tick throw/ex.legs mix up, command normal cross up, cross up, stomp cross up mix up, an instant overhead or a fireball trap and mix up, between sweep/throw/overhead. She could even perform a safe jump albeit with greater difficulty.

Her ultra link from ex.legs maybe poor but its alot better than what Guile has. Which is nothing.

Her s.mp is godly +2 on block = rapesauce.
Her sweep is a decent poke.
As is her hard kick.
She is the poke Queen, Bison and Vega can compete with pokes but she has the advantage of a fireball shield.

Agreed her hard kick sbk is pointless as it impossible to combo but her mk.sbk offers good damage from a combo if you don't want to burn meter.

As for her super being useless, join the club, that goes for 90% of the cast. The only really good one is Dhalsim's (and its only good because he has nothing to spend ex.meter on ). Ryu's and Seths is pretty good. But the rest are pretty poor.

Orim

I'll be happy with the fixed ultra and the extra health. EX SBK is just like the rest of her anti-airs, very situational and you got watch for the right time to use. My attitude could change quick when I see how slow s.HK has become.

As Dreddy says in the right match Chuns super is game changing. The Balrog match is an especially good example. When you have super you shut down all of his offence. It's a great super but it's offset by how much she relies on meter.

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

As for trouble with cross up, ex.sbk should take care of Guiles easy enough.
Guile doesn't have much in the way of mix up or damage.

He has cross up (one of the worst in the game) into tick throw, block string or weak combo, fireball trap mixup, throw or block string.

Compare that to Chuns options on Guile.
She could do a throw, a block string into overhead/tick throw/ex.legs mix up, command normal cross up, cross up, stomp cross up mix up, an instant overhead or a fireball trap and mix up, between sweep/throw/overhead. She could even perform a safe jump albeit with greater difficulty.

Her ultra link from ex.legs maybe poor but its alot better than what Guile has. Which is nothing.

Her s.mp is godly +2 on block = rapesauce.
Her sweep is a decent poke.
As is her hard kick.
She is the poke Queen, Bison and Vega can compete with pokes but she has the advantage of a fireball shield.

Agreed her hard kick sbk is pointless as it impossible to combo but here mk offers could damage from a combo if you don't want to burn meter.

As for her super being useless, join the club, that goes for 90% of the cast. The only really good one is Dhalsim's. Ryu's and Seths is pretty good. But the rest are pretty poor.

I think you're missing the point on the Guile thing.

How is Chun supposed to get to him to do any of that?

She can't jump the boom, she'll prob get air thrown, or chped, or early jhk ed in the air.

She can't hassan over the boom for the reason I mentioned earlier.

Projectile war won't go in her favour for the reasons I mentioned above.

If a Guile sees her chasing the kikoken he will ex boom or boom then american backhand/ sweep.