Ultra Street Fighter 4 Discussion Thread

Sisko

JohnMc1 wrote: »

I guess we should expect that from Capcom by now. I wouldn't be surprised if this time next year we're discussing a 3rd installment of SF4.

That would be a good thing, and no doubt there will be a 3rd SF4.

But I'd be surprised it'd be as early as this time next year.


I think for the 3rd one they'd have to have brand new stages, gameplay changes , new voices mabye even new or updated character models, and add in other basic things characters had that they didn't bother adding this time around.

For example ryu's kick from 3s, that'd be something obvious to give him to make him seem different when they do make a 3rd SF4.


It seems Ryu's been hit with the biggest nerfs out of everyone from what I hear.

Trades into ultras sucked alright, but I'm just thinking now, looking at characters like balrog who have this fantastic jump in move that all I can hope for is a trade , its gonna really hurt ryu's game.

Everyones AA reversal game seems to be weaker, making jump ins easier in this from what I understand. If I was on pad I'd be very pleased with this.

But on stick I'm so weak against jump ins, hopefully that'll go away soon >.<

Jim

There was an interivew with Ono recently where he said something like "I don't except Capcom to want me to do Super Street Fighter IV Hyper Figthing anytime soon, here's the game I'd like to do instead".

Dunno if that means he wont do it, or it wont be done at all.

Dreddybajs

Kirby wrote: »

There is. I don't play any other char and I know my guy well. That new video of him vs cammy combined with the old sagat v sim from january does all his normals. They are the same.

His crouching jab and crouching light kick are still 3 frames and have poor range. Was hoping for a slight buff.

Lol at thinking Dhalsim should get a 2 frame jab :pac:

In seriousness though there's no possible way you can tell the difference in a single frame.

Especially since those youtube videos are rendered in 30fps meaning that it skips every other frame anyway, so unless you downloaded the 60fps source from that website and went by it frame by frame like Gilley was doing, you're talking ****e. (Not contending that Dhalsim has a 2 frame jab as that would be ridiculous)

Ramza

D4RK ONION wrote: »

I wouldn't mind. Sure it took them 3 to get SF3 perfect/QUOTE]

SF3 is nowhere near perfect my friend! :pac:

Sisko

Compared to SF3 1 and 2 , 3s is a far higher quality product.

I don't think he meant it was perfectly balanced or anything.

Azza

Spotting slight frame changes from those videos would be impossible. Unless a move has has significant changes your not gonna notice.

I don't know why on earth Dhalsim would need a 2 frame jab, no other character in the game has one.

The whole point of Dhalsim is to have a great keep away game and be horrible up close.

Having said that we know nothing about Dhalsim or Fei-Long other than there new ultra's. We have heard of no other changes. Although a while back I did hear they tweaked Fei's Chicken Wing but it was never confirmed.

Also I don't get why people are going "oh capcom promised they would not nerf a character", they contradicted that statement within a few day or so saying it by saying they would nerf certain characters. I think it was just confusion over the design philosophy of balancing the game.

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Lol at thinking Dhalsim should get a 2 frame jab :pac:

In seriousness though there's no possible way you can tell the difference in a single frame.

Especially since those youtube videos are rendered in 30fps meaning that it skips every other frame anyway, so unless you downloaded the 60fps source from that website and went by it frame by frame like Gilley was doing, you're talking ****e. (Not contending that Dhalsim has a 2 frame jab as that would be ridiculous)

Even if you did that, wouldn't you have difficulty due to key framing and the algorithm used?

Could be wrong but vague college memories about that

Sairus

Jim wrote: »

There was an interivew with Ono recently where he said something like "I don't except Capcom to want me to do Super Street Fighter IV Hyper Figthing anytime soon, here's the game I'd like to do instead".

Dunno if that means he wont do it, or it wont be done at all.

He also said that he would definitely get Bonus Stages into SFIV even if he had to program them in himself. Take everything Ono says with a grain of salt.

Kirby

Dreddybajs wrote: »

In seriousness though there's no possible way you can tell the difference in a single frame.

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. All of his normals are the exact same. There isn't even subtle changes. If you want to bet on it, I'm game. But don't project your own limitations to mine. I can tell, even if you cant.

Bazinga!

And he doesnt have 3 frame startup, he has three frame active. Its not a balrog jab. Its startup is 4 frames. which is poor for a jab that doesnt link to anything andit has a long recovery and is +0 on block.....so you are always going to eat something when you try to use it because of its startup and recovery. Its not unreasonable to want to get a jab out without eating an ultra...... and his light kick variant has even more startup frames.

Dreddybajs

I'm not debating whether he does or does not have different frame data, I'm saying there's no way you could tell a single frame difference, especially from a video which is running in 30fps (making it literally impossible to tell from the source you're using).

edit: Also +0 means it's safe on that so dunno what you mean there?

Kirby

Dreddybajs wrote: »

I'm not debating whether he does or does not have different frame data, I'm saying there's no way you could tell a single frame difference, especially from a video which is running in 30fps (making it literally impossible to tell from the source you're using).

Well maybe I'm wrong. But I couldn't tell a difference. If they added or subtracted active or startup frames they would have to redo the animation slightly. And they look the exact same.

They may have changed the frame advantage on block or hit for some moves, but the startup and active look identical. It just seems lazy. Atleast change something for the sake of it. Even if it wont make him better. Changes are fun!

Ramza

Kirby wrote: »

jab that doesnt link to anything andit has a long recovery and is +0 on block.....so you are always going to eat something when you try to use it because of its startup and recovery. Its not unreasonable to want to get a jab out without eating an ultra

Dude you DO know that if something is 0 it's safe right?

Kirby

Yes. But its not worth the risk because its 4 on startup. Every other character has a 3 frame or a 4 frame startup with more active frames. If it was +1 like his Medium kick, you could stick it out knowing that if it hit, you could backdash or teleport away.

Its just not worth the risk which is why you never see any sim players use it.

Ramza

Kirby wrote: »

Yes. But its not worth the risk because its 4 on startup. Every other character has a 3 frame or a 4 frame startup with more active frames. If it was +1 like his Medium kick, you could stick it out knowing that if it hit, you could backdash or teleport away.

Its just not worth the risk which is why you never see any sim players use it.

What do you mean? I don't think anyone can punish a 4 frame startup move on reaction, seriously.

K.O.Kiki

Ramza wrote: »

What do you mean? I don't think anyone can punish a 4 frame startup move on reaction, seriously.

This.
Reaction time is in the region of 15-20f.

Doctor DooM

Kirby wrote: »

Well maybe I'm wrong. But I couldn't tell a difference. If they added or subtracted active or startup frames they would have to redo the animation slightly. And they look the exact same.

They may have changed the frame advantage on block or hit for some moves, but the startup and active look identical. It just seems lazy. Atleast change something for the sake of it. Even if it wont make him better. Changes are fun!

Dude the animations wouldn't have to change. Just when hit boxes become active and inactive.

Furthermore, I think you're missing how videos are rendered on youtube.

Every 5 or 6 frames is a key frame. Several algorithms are used to create the frames in between rather than using uncompressed complete frames for each frame. There's other algorithms controlling spaces which don't change from frame to frame. FLV players basically make educated guesses. most of the time. This is why pooorly compressed videos get bad artifacting.


So you have probably never seen a completely accurate video on youtube- just close enough.

Unless it's changed since I learned it in college (but I don't think so, one of the major options for increasing the quality of my videos is increasing the number of key frames, but it makes them alot slower to upload).

Kirby

Ramza wrote: »

What do you mean? I don't think anyone can punish a 4 frame startup move on reaction, seriously.

I jab, you block. I cant risk jabbing again because your jab move will beat it.

Ill give you an example. Bison can go crouching short, short, short. Or ryu can do crouching jab,jab,jab. And its safe.

Sim can't go crouching jab, jab, jab...because on the second jab he will be beaten to the punch. It's that simple.

I'm not asking for a great inside game. That would be silly. But the jab doesnt really link to anything so there is no danger in making it similar to everyone elses is there?

Ramza

Kirby wrote: »

I jab, you block. I cant risk jabbing again because your jab move will beat it.

Ill give you an example. Bison can go crouching short, short, short. Or ryu can do crouching jab,jab,jab. And its safe.

Sim can't go crouching jab, jab, jab...because on the second jab he will be beaten to the punch. It's that simple.

I'm not asking for a great inside game. That would be silly. But the jab doesnt really link to anything so there is no danger in making it similar to everyone elses is there?

Given that Sim's is 0 on block you shouldn't really be looking to string it anyway

And no, Bison's cr.short string is not safe

I don't think Sim could ever string cr.jabs like that in any SF man

Azza

There is no way you can tell if there is frame changes from any of those videos unless your a cybrog.

There is also a reason Sim doesn't have a 3 frame jab unlike other characters. The other characters (except Seth) don't have a HP that goes over half the screen.

In balancing there is such things as legit weaknesses. Sim is mean't to be woeful up close, thats the reward for getting through his excellent zoning game.

I think with Sim they really just need to tweak his health and damage output slight to balance him better. Perhaps the new ultra will give him a better overall damage output, but its effectiveness is unknown at this point.

Sim has no great match ups in SF 4 that would be rated beyond 6-4 in his favor and no terrible match ups that would be rated beyond 4-6 against him.

Also against Bison Sim has two options to counter Bison's low short block strings. Bisons low shorts are not a true block string being only +1 on block. Meaning there is a 2 frame game in between them each one that people can reversal out of. Sim can use his Super to beat Bison's low short clean or his ultra to at least get Bison off him. Won't work against Ryu because his c.jab is a chain. But if the are that close Sim deserves to be under alot of pressure.

Kirby

Ramza wrote: »

Given that Sim's is 0 on block you shouldn't really be looking to string it anyway

Thats my point though. If they made it + on block, you could string it a couple of times and when they block it, it would create space between you. That would be very useful in escaping.

And i agree that in balancing sim needs to have a woeful short game. But its just a jab. It would give him ateast one tool to stop people just jabbing him to death in the corner.

Oh and he actually does have a 3 frame startup btw. His short slide. But its like -10 or something stupid on block. So its dangerous as hell.

Ramza

Kirby wrote: »

Thats my point though. If they made it + on block, you could string it a couple of times and when they block it, it would create space between you. That would be very useful in escaping.

And i agree that in balancing sim needs to have a woeful short game. But its just a jab. It would give him ateast one tool to stop people just jabbing him to death in the corner.

Yeah but I don't think Sim ever had the ability to string jabs together, he's not really an up close and personal character :pac:

What's the point, seriously? He has a teleport, I think it's escaping tool enough

Kirby

You cant teleport unless you have space. A block jab or two gives you space. Thats the point. Its a fairly simple premise. Anyway. Less bash kirby please. You guys have had your mains made better. bully for you. mine is the same. which sucks.

Azza

His teleport doesn't work in the corner and characters with slides's can option select a slide when he is waking up to eliminate it from his game.

Still overall its a brillaint escape and evasion tool.

Ramza

Kirby wrote: »

You cant teleport unless you have space. A block jab or two gives you space. Thats the point. Its a fairly simple premise. Anyway. Less bash kirby please. You guys have had your mains made better. bully for you. mine is the same. which sucks.

Don't play Sim then?

No one's bashing you dude cmon :pac:

How do you know Sim is the same? Just wait till the game comes out >.>

bush

If sim could just teleport out of the corner no bother it would be stupid.

Kirby

Obviously. Nobody is suggesting he should be able to.

Retr0gamer

Characters should have strengths and weaknesses otherwise we'd all be boring and end up like Terry playing Sagat (only messing man). If you gave Sim block strings to get himself out of trouble when the opposing character gets up close and personal then what's the point? You will completely change the character and in street fighter even the smallest tweak can make a low tier character into god tier and I'm pretty sure that's whatcould happen to a Sim with a good close up game. Sim has probably the best zoning game in the game. If some gets close it's your fault and you should suffer for it.

Also it is impossible to tell if fram data has been changed from a youtube video. With the short dev time capcom wouldn't have changed the animation but would have just changed when the invisible hitboxes become active, so even if you were a cyborg you wouldn't be able to tell.

Kirby

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Sim has probably the best zoning game in the game. .

Seth does. He has the same tools and more. He can get out of the corner for free. Like Ryu, I might add. They temper it with seth by giving him the lowest health.

Azza

Sims zoning is in the top 3. Weather Seth has better zoning tools than Sim is a matter of opinion.

Seth's standing hard punch is much slower than Sim's in both start up and recovery making Seth more vunrable to focus dashing. Seth has got more range on his s.hp

Seth jumping hard punch has more range than Sim's can't be used in a forward jump like Sim and it does less damage.

Seth's fireballs recover slower, but travel fasters than Sim's. Sim is more likely to be able to anti air an opponent that jumps in than Seth is.

Its easier to get in on Seth than Sim its just harder to stay on him.

Kirby

You cant trap seth. That makes him better at it. If you want to run for 99 seconds with seth, you can. Dhalsim can't do that. Eventually you will find yourself in a corner. Seth just jumps out of it.