Gears while stopping?

Zube

r3nu4l wrote: »

Even if you are CERTAIN that you are coming to a stop, if the lights change as soon as you are stopped you shouldn't have to shift about searching for first gear from fifth!

Aha! Maybe we've come across an actual reason to teach learners to always use all the gears down to second: it'll train them to know what gear they are in.

I've been driving manuals for 20+ years, and I never think about what gear I'm in, or want next. The idea that I'd have to "search" for 1st wouldn't even occur to me. But perhaps if I were training a new driver, it would help them to know that they always stop in 2nd, and simplify gear changing if they never skip any gears (which I do all the time with a 6 speed diesel).

Anan1

Morlar wrote: »

My experience (current car FWD +ABS, previous RWD no abs) it is safer to go through the gears to avoid a slide. You brake suddenly on ice even with abs the risk of a slide is greater than if you remove the bulk of the speed by dropping gears. If you are in the habit of doing that there is no additional concentration required, no more than using a manual over an automatic.

You're not comparing like for like - engine braking will provide similar retardation to light braking with the brake. The two disadvantages of engine braking in most cars are that you're only braking two wheels and you've no ABS. Whatever about ABS, only braking two wheels has to be more likely to cause a slide than braking all four, particularly if the two wheels being braked are the rears.

Morlar

Anan1 wrote: »

You're not comparing like for like - engine braking will provide similar retardation to light braking with the brake. The two disadvantages of engine braking in most cars are that you're only braking two wheels and you've no ABS. Whatever about ABS, only braking two wheels has to be more likely to cause a slide than braking all four, particularly if the two wheels being braked are the rears.

I have never heard of anyone who has gone into a slide by dropping speed through the gears. I have experienced it using only the brakes though. ABS on a dry road I would have a lot of faith in, on an iced/wet road I would have a lot less faith in it.

getz

35 years ago when i first passed my test in the UK, you had to gear down, or you would fail,now they tell you when learning that you should not. one time only a few years ago i was followed by a police car for 5 miles, he then pulled me over to tell men [and i think he intended to book me] my brake lights were not working.when i explained it was called advance driving, he shot off in a huff,i bet the next one he stopped got the book thrown at him

unkel

r3nu4l wrote: »

Er, no. It's clear that different driving instructors DO (emphasis overkill hee hee) teach different things.

eoin wrote: »

Yep, I was told to go down through the gears and stop in second.

Perhaps there is more of a mix in answers from driving instructors in this country than I thought. Or maybe all those driving instructors you mention are a bit elderly :pac:

I'd bet big money though that the overwhelming majority of driving instructors in say Germany, France or even the UK will tell you to stop in gear and have been saying that for many decades now...

Anan1

Morlar wrote: »

I have never heard of anyone who has gone into a slide by dropping speed through the gears. I have experienced it using only the brakes though. ABS on a dry road I would have a lot of faith in, on an iced/wet road I would have a lot less faith in it.

That's because you can brake a lot harder using the brakes than you can using engine braking. The fact remains, though, that - for the same deceleration - braking only two wheels is more likely to cause a skid than braking all four. This is why it's safer to use the brakes rather than engine braking when it comes to driving on ice/snow/wet roads etc.

Morlar

Anan1 wrote: »

That's because you can brake a lot harder using the brakes than you can using engine braking.

Braking alone is more likely to slide the car.

Anan1 wrote: »

This is why it's safer to use the brakes rather than engine braking when it comes to driving on ice/snow/wet roads etc.

I disagree. In instances where you need to drop speed rather than a full immdeiate stop it is more sensible to go down the gears than use the brakes on ice. Dropping a gear does not lock the wheels, you do not lose traction, it is not the same thing but it does slow you down and is safer than brakes alone in my experience.

Anan1

Morlar wrote: »

Braking alone is more likely to slide the car.

Only if you apply more retardation than you would by engine braking.

Morlar wrote: »

I disagree. In instances where you need to drop speed rather than a full immdeiate stop it is more sensible to go down the gears than use the brakes on ice. Dropping a gear does not lock the wheels, you do not lose traction, it is not the same thing but it does slow you down and is safer than brakes alone in my experience.

You're not addressing my point - how can braking only two wheels on ice be safer than braking all four?

Morlar

Anan1 wrote: »

You're not addressing my point

Actually I already have, it is you who is not explaining how in the general run of things on poor weather conditions removing speed through dropping gears is more dangerous than hitting the brakes ? You can not lock the wheels going down the gears, this would be far easier to lose control braking than dropping gears.

To remove speed is not 'braking', the wheels do not lock. You keep traction and control and are better in tune with the car and the revs it is at in proportion to the speed you are moving at and the target speed. Hitting the brakes rather than using the gears is more unpredictable, and, imo more likely to cause the car to lose traction and slide. Also coming out of it you (if you had been using the brakes rather than dropping gears) would be more likely to wheelspin as you would be in the wrong gear.

Henry Ford III

God this is an awful thread.

In every possible road/traffic situation, whilst driving a manual car, there is only 1 optimal gear to be in.

It's that simple.

Anan1

Morlar wrote: »

Actually I already have, it is you who is not explaining how in the general run of things on poor weather conditions removing speed through dropping gears is more dangerous than hitting the brakes ?.

Because braking only two wheels is intrinsically less safe than braking all four.

Morlar wrote: »

You can not lock the wheels going down the gears,

Yes you can.

Morlar wrote: »

this would be far easier to lose control braking than dropping gears..

Only if you apply greater retardation than you would have through engine braking.

Morlar wrote: »

To remove speed is not 'braking',

To use the engine to slow the wheels is indeed braking.

Morlar wrote: »

the wheels do not lock. You keep traction and control and are better in tune with the car and the revs it is at in proportion to the speed you are moving at and the target speed.

Maybe, maybe not - depends the road surface/tyres.

Morlar wrote: »

Hitting the brakes rather than using the gears is more unpredictable, and, imo more likely to cause the car to lose traction and slide.

Only if you're too heavy on the brakes, if you won't slide using x degree of engine braking then you certainly won't slide using the same degree of braking.

Morlar wrote: »

Also coming out of it you (if you had been using the brakes rather than dropping gears) would be more likely to wheelspin as you would be in the wrong gear.

Wouldn't you be in a higher gear if you hadn't used engine braking, and thus less likely to spin the wheels?

Look, this is really quite simple. Engine braking generally brakes only two wheels, the brakes are applied to all four wheels. How can braking only two wheels possibly be less likely to result in a slide than braking all four? Come on, why do you think cars have four wheel brakes in the first place?

Morlar

Anan1 wrote: »

Look, this is really quite simple.

Indeed it is, slowing through the gears is not the same thing as applying brakes to 2 wheels.

Anan1

Morlar wrote: »

Indeed it is, slowing through the gears is not the same thing as applying brakes to 2 wheels.

Of course it is, that's why it's called engine braking.;)

Morlar

Morlar wrote: »

Actually I already have, it is you who is not explaining how in the general run of things on poor weather conditions removing speed through dropping gears is more dangerous than hitting the brakes ? You can not lock the wheels going down the gears, this would be far easier to lose control braking than dropping gears.

To remove speed is not 'braking', the wheels do not lock. You keep traction and control and are better in tune with the car and the revs it is at in proportion to the speed you are moving at and the target speed. Hitting the brakes rather than using the gears is more unpredictable, and, imo more likely to cause the car to lose traction and slide. Also coming out of it you (if you had been using the brakes rather than dropping gears) would be more likely to wheelspin as you would be in the wrong gear.

In my experience driving rwd cars correct and gradual braking in such more stable than gearing down in order to use engine braking.

Gearing down can and will cause the back to kick out on roads which have snow on them or are icy. I know this because I have done it.

You also mention that it is not possible to lock up the wheels under engine braking. Of course its possible if there is not enough traction. The laws of physics apply the same as they do for normal braking.

leahyl

Hi to be honest i'm kind of confused by all this (!) but i just want to clarify - my instructor told me that he knows one tester who will fail you if you don't stop in second gear all the time. He says you must stop in second and come down all the gears - i'm pretty sure this is nonsense but for the purpose of the test is it better that i gear down? Then i can do what i want once i pass....IF i pass that is....:(

Morlar

Jad Colossal Baggage wrote: »

Gearing down can and will cause the back to kick out on roads which have snow on them or are icy. I know this because I have done it.

I take your word for it, my experience is different however and I have slid on ice without using gears (RWD), whereas using them to reduce speed it is far more stable.

Jad Colossal Baggage wrote: »

You also mention that it is not possible to lock up the wheels under engine braking.

Well, I have never seen that, nor heard from anyone who has experienced that. Using the brakes on ice or snow is still more likely to cause this to happen in my opinion than slowing through the gears.

el tel

Just be good boys and girls and use your brakes to slow. When you need to dip the cluch to stop do it before the engine begins to shudder. If you need to get in gear to accelerate instead of slowing pick the right one for the speed and revs. Trust me, both you car and passengers will love the smoothness and your wallet will be dented less also.

Out of interest, how many of you catz are IAM or RoSPA Advanced Drivers?

Zube

Morlar wrote: »

Using the brakes on ice or snow is still more likely to cause this to happen in my opinion than slowing through the gears.

This is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

Anan1

Zube wrote: »

This is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

It's not, actually. Sure, the brakes are powerful enough to provoke a slide if used over-enthusiastically simply because they're capable of braking more than the engine. The fact is that, for any given level of retardation, engine braking is more likely to provoke a slide than using the brakes.

Zube

Anan1 wrote: »

It's not, actually.

It is a matter of fact: it's a fact that ABS braking is less likely to cause a skid than trying to slow using the gears.

Morlar's repeated opinion is simply wrong.

Anan1

Zube wrote: »

It is a matter of fact: it's a fact that ABS braking is less likely to cause a skid than trying to slow using the gears.

Morlar's repeated opinion is simply wrong.

I think we're in a misunderstanding here, I understood from your post that you were saying that Morlar was correct. And I think from his thanks that Morlar thought the same!;)

ttm

What is all this rubish being talked about brakes being better on ice than gears. I used to drive for about a month of the year in North Yorkshire on and off ice and when the ice was really bad you tried not to touch the brakes at all, kept the engine in the highest gear you could with the lowest engine revs and slowed down by changing gear and matching the wheel speed with the revs and then slowly easing the revs down. Driving on ice is a matter of being able to feel the ice below you by the way the car reacts to a little more or less revs and the way it stears. Braking to slow on ice LOL yeah if great if we all had ABS brakes but if anyone wants to slam the brakes on and rely on a computer to do the braking perhaps there should be a new driving licence catagory like, for automatics - I give you they ABS licence for people that can only drive cars with ABS brakes because the can't really drive or are too lazy to be bothered to change gear :P

.....gets coat flat cap an' whippets and looks for place to 'ide

SV

Zube wrote: »

It is a matter of fact: it's a fact that ABS braking is less likely to cause a skid than trying to slow using the gears.

Morlar's repeated opinion is simply wrong.

ABS braking is one of the most dangerous things to have on a car tbh*

*apart from when in the most ideal conditions.