BAKING & PASTRY ARTS MANAGEMENT

LovexxLife

Hi, just wondering does anyone do this course and info about it? Thanks

echo5

DT418
I did the course and would have the following to say about it
It’s an interesting course but more of a course you would do if you want to pursue a hobby rather than a professional qualification. Job prospects and money aren’t great.

The main problem with the course as I see it is that there is too much theory and not enough practical work. There are two practical sessions each week for about 3 hours each time in which you make different breads/pastries/cakes. Being a professional baker is more about practical skills and less about theory it’s not something you can learn from a book, you have to learn the skills by practicing and keep doing it day after day and then you become quicker and more competent. If you’re only doing it twice a week it’s not going to happen. So if you want to be a professional baker or master baker you need to do an apprenticeship such as you would do on the continent or Australia. http://www.bakersdelight.com.au/Careers/Apprenticeships/
(Not really an option as you need a work visa or to be Australian but it illustrates the point about apprenticeships) To be fair it’s not really something the college can do much about as there are not enough artisan bakeries in Ireland that students could be placed in to do an apprenticeship. Superquinn was the last company to do an apprenticeship linked with the course but that finished up years ago. The students would work mostly in a Superquinn and come in once a week to do some theory. Now a lot of the products are bought in.

You need to put the bakery industry in Ireland into context. The vast majority of bread made is mass produced in a factory. The processes are all automated and most of the time the bread is never touched by human hands and therefore doesn’t require a trained baker.

Unlike the continent or Australia there aren't really that many real "scratch" bakery shops that produce products from scratch (raw ingredients) the night before, bake them sell them on the day and then start all over that following evening. These shops require a qualified baker. Many so called “In store bakeries” take bread out of a freezer and put it in an oven and bake it off for which a baker isn’t needed, anyone can do it. So this limits the number of opportunities to finding a job in the small number of traditional artisan bakeries. However you are likely to have competition from continental bakers such as the Polish which having done a proper bakery apprenticeship are going to be much better than you.

Pay starts at the minimum wage and you are unlikely to see it rise very high. The majority of people coming out of the course haven’t taken jobs in the bakery industry. If you get a job in a bakery you will most likely start in the evening and work till the early morning. Most of the jobs in the artisan bakeries are taken by Polish bakers which makes sense since they have the practical skills needed. Speed is the name of the game. This comes back to the fact that they have had an apprenticeship that was mostly practical in a working bakery. They can mould bread well and quickly whereas students from DT 418 will find it harder to match them.

You could take the view that it’s a management course and that people coming out of it will never be bakers and will just be managing a company that employs bakers. However you are not going to leave the course and become a manager straight away, you need experience which if you don’t have the practical skills as a baker you are going to find it hard to get a job with competition from continental bakers working here.

With student fees looking likely to be coming in next year i would be looking at course with better prospects and earnings.

If you are interested in it as a hobby i would recommend Professional Baking by Wayne Gisslen. Look for it on amazon.com

LovexxLife

Thanks for all your information....my idea is to set up my own bakery..so would this course be of no use at all for this?

echo5

What kind of bakery were you hoping to set up? What do you want to produce?

I personally think the way to go is an apprenticeship but you can't get one in Ireland. I finished the course and worked in the bakery industry and at the end of it all didn't feel it was worthwhile setting up a bakery in Ireland.

Some of the theory might be useful but as you make bread by hand in small quantities on the course when you are running your own bakery you are going to have up scale and use machinery get your skills right and mould the bread at much quicker rate. So i suppose it might be an introduction but you would then have to get yourself a job in an artisan bakery to see how a commercial bakery works and get your skill levels up. There a very limited number of artisan bakeries making high quality bread in Ireland so you might find it hard to get one. You can rule out any of the supermarket bakeries. I think you would find it hard to get the skill-set to start a bakery.

A lot of people find it hard to make the jump from the slower small scale baking on the course rather like what you would do at home to going into a commercial setting where you need to be able to mould and produce bread very quickly. A lot of bakers in commercial settings will expect you to be able to slot right in because you have a degree in baking much like someone who has done a bakery apprenticeship. When they see you working at a slower rate it could cause problems because they didn't think they would have to take the time to bring you up to speed. A good way of seeing whether you would be a good baker is how your hand to eye co-ordination is. If its good you will find it easier to pick new skills.
I will ask some of the people on the course and see what they would think.

I think you would find it hard to run a full scratch bakery in Ireland that does a wide range of products because people are used to cheap bread and frozen pastries. To make a quality product costs money that most people probably wont want to pay because they see no difference even though the quality and taste is much better. For example would pay around €1 for a cuisine de france pain au chocolait or would you be willing to pay €2.50 for one made fresh the night before in an artisan bakery.
An option might be to have a coffee shop that produce a limited range of products. Bread is labour intensive and take a lot of time. Sweet goods like muffins and cookies take less time and tend to be more profitable

Ro2009

Hi, not sure if I've posted this in the right thread, I'm training to be a chef at the moment however pastry class in college isn't that great, I'm wondering does anyone know of any evening or sunday classes specialising in pastry? even one day courses. I am really interested in pastry but I just don't get to do enough of it. Any suggestions, much appreciated

echo5

I have heard that some of the IT's outside Dublin do courses in pastry and sugarcraft on a part-time basis. Maybe they do them in the IT's in Dublin. Another suggestion is to get a professional pastry book (as opposed to a home baking book) and practice, practice. There will always be a limit to what can be done in class this way you can choose what you want to do and practice away. If you go to work as a professional pastry chef it will be all about quality and speed.

Shariken

Hi I was wondering do you need to complete a course or have a cert to bake? Can set up a bakery having no qualifications except your experience of cooking? I want to set up a bakery specialising in cake decoration and sweet treats like cookies, cream slice, that sort of thing. I found a full time course for one year which awards you a cert, after one year you can go on to lvl 2 which then they will place you at a job if you don't already have one. But is a course neccessary to start a small sweet bakery business?

echo5

Hi,
Unlike a medical doctor or architect anyone in Ireland can call themselves a baker. You don't have to do a course, you can start whenever you want. On the continent some countries reserve the word bakery for a place that makes bread from scratch as opposed to putting frozen bread in an oven. Tesco and Dunnes have what they call "bakeries" but all they do is put frozen bread in an oven and bake it off. In my opinion thats not a bakery but in ireland anybody can set up a business and call it a bakery. The course will probably place you in a hotel making stuff that isn't very complicated and you probably wont pick up much of use. I could be wrong though.
Most of the courses will show you the basics of baking on a small scale but wouldn't be any good if your hoping to get knowledge of a commercial experience.

Morlock

did u do the full 3 years ? and after the 3 years did you actualy do anything with it ? are you a baker ? also during he course can you also do adtional classes ( ie Royal iceing or Suger work )