ONE SMALL STEP FOR MAN, ONE GIANT LEAP FOR PALESTINE! GRACIAS ESPA A !!

Captain Furball

Spain has expelled a group of Israeli scientists from a state-funded solar energy competition because they are based in occupied areas of the West Bank, it said today.


The decision to expel the team from the Ariel University Centre of Samaria from Solar Decathlon Europe, an international competition involving 20 universities, has provoked angry reactions in Israel. The team was one of 20 finalists in a competition to design solar-powered housing that is part-sponsored by the US energy department.

“All the ministry has done is apply the policy of the European Union,” a housing ministry spokesman said. “The EU does not recognise the occupation of the West Bank, which is where this university is."


So why are they leaving the Israelis build more houses on land that's not theirs?Why not put massive sanctions on Israel? Or is it only Iran are the bad guys?

You see international law only suits them when it is in their own interests.

Nodin

Nice one.

Sand

That'll show em!

Manic Moran

I hope that the Israelis didn't have the winning entry. The Israelis are not known for being technology slouches.

"We have scored a victory for the people of Palestine by removing the Israelis from a competitoin which could help to save the planet..."

NTM

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

That'll show em!

If you've nothing to say.....

Manic Moran wrote:

"We have scored a victory for the people of Palestine by removing the Israelis from a competitoin which could help to save the planet..."!

Or we could take a Werner Von Braun style approach and not worry about where the labour for the rockets comes, or what they're actually for....I'd rather kick the Israelis out meself. Only in times of dire nessecity can this kind of dealing with the devil be excused, and we are far from there yet.

Colonialism is at the root of a great deal of the crap vast sections of humanity have to endure to this day. Turning a blind eye to it is inexcusable in this day and age.

Sand

Nodin:

If you've nothing to say.....

Nodin less than 2 hours earlier:

Nice one.

As I noted this action is fairly insignificant, it's unbalanced (what steps have Spain taken to condemn or punish Palestinian violance?) and as Manic Moran pointed out potententially self harming in that the Israeli team might actuallly have something to contribute to the science of fighting climate change.

But yeah, fight the power!

By the way, given this is collective punishment...are people now in approval of bulldozing the houses of Palestinians to punish sucide bomb attacks? Nah, thought not.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

As I noted this action is fairly insignificant, it's unbalanced (what steps have Spain taken to condemn or punish Palestinian violance?).

As the Palestinians are already internationally isolated, cut off and blocked one would have a job finding something to sanction.

Secondly Israel, as the occupier and instigator of the colonies, is the aggressor.

Sand wrote: »

By the way, given this is collective punishment...are people now in approval of bulldozing the houses of Palestinians to punish sucide bomb attacks? Nah, thought not.

If you bothered reading the OP you'll see they were not evicted for being Israeli, but for being based in the occupied territory of the West Bank.

(You might also explain how being banned from an international competition is comparable to the destruction of housing, denial of water and food resources etc.)

spadder

Will the Spanish expell themselves form the competition on the grounds that the Basques and the Catalans would dispute the occupation of their lands?

Bottle_of_Smoke

spadder wrote: »

Will the Spanish expell themselves form the competition on the grounds that the Basques and the Catalans would dispute the occupation of their lands?

the west bank is internationally recognised as illegal occupation

Sand

@Nodin

As the Palestinians are already internationally isolated, cut off and blocked one would have a job finding something to sanction.

Secondly Israel, as the occupier and instigator of the colonies, is the aggressor.

So in effect, no they havent taken any steps to condemn or punish Palestinian violence. In isolation, this wouldnt be a major issue. Given their steps to condemn and punish Israelis, then its seen in a different light - punishing one side, approval of the other.

As for your second point - irrelevant. But if you want Ill dig out the records of Arab pogroms against Jewish women and childen 70 and 80 years ago, long before Israel existed in the modern sense. I can dig out the records where Arab Palestinian leaders helped the Nazis recruit SS divisions to assist in the "good work" of exterminating the Jews. Who started it again?

But thatd be a waste of both our times, wouldnt it? You like the "they started it!" logic, but only from a particular start point that ignores any awkward events prior to the approved start point.

If you bothered reading the OP you'll see they were not evicted for being Israeli, but for being based in the occupied territory of the West Bank.

I said it was collective punishment - the University has 500 Arab students so the team could actually consist of many Arab members, further punishing them ironically. The team might consist of Israeli peace activists for all you know. But thats irrelevant, its designed to punish Israel through them, as opposed to punishing them for any crime they have committed.

Interestingly, this is the first time the event has been held in Spain. It will probably be the last too given the way the event has been co-opted for political point scoring.

(You might also explain how being banned from an international competition is comparable to the destruction of housing, denial of water and food resources etc.)

You might explain how attending a university open to Jewish and Arab students is comparable to strapping explosives to yourself, and attempting to suicide bomb a childrens birthday party.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

So in effect, no they havent taken any steps to condemn or punish Palestinian violence..

Its well known that the EU has various blocks on Hamas. Are you being obtuse?

Sand wrote: »

In isolation, this wouldnt be a major issue. Given their steps to condemn and punish Israelis, then its seen in a different light - punishing one side, approval of the other...

You presume equivalence.

Were it not for the alliance between the US and Israel, I doubt the Palestinians would find themselves as isolated as they do, nor Israel as "acceptable" in certain quarters.

Sand wrote: »

As for your second point - irrelevant. But if you want Ill dig out the records of Arab pogroms against Jewish women and childen 70 and 80 years ago, long before Israel existed in the modern sense. I can dig out the records where Arab Palestinian leaders helped the Nazis recruit SS divisions to assist in the "good work" of exterminating the Jews. Who started it again?...

What has that to do with the occupation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

Sand wrote: »

But thatd be a waste of both our times, wouldnt it? You like the "they started it!" logic, but only from a particular start point that ignores any awkward events prior to the approved start point.

Not at all. The occupation and its attendant colonialism is wrong regardless of who started it or when. Were Egypt to take back Gaza and repopulate parts of it with Egyptians, it would be equally wrong. You don't seem to see the irony in accusing me of using "they started it" logic, when you've already trotted out two of the classic excuses for colonisation of the OT.

Sand wrote: »

I said it was (.....) they have committed..

Its irrelevant how many Arabs are members. The university is located in occupied territory, outside Israels borders and cannot represent the state of Israel. If it applied as a representative of the OT, that would presumably acceptable.

Sand wrote: »

Interestingly, this is the first time the event has been held in Spain. It will probably be the last too given the way the event has been co-opted for political point scoring...

Its a perfectly valid score. Colonialism is wrong. It was wrong when Spain was actively engaged in it, and its wrong now regardless of who is doing it, be it Morrocco, Indonesia or Israel.

Sand wrote: »

You might explain how attending a university open to Jewish and Arab students is comparable to strapping explosives to yourself, and attempting to suicide bomb a childrens birthday party.

Another sneering non-sequitur, replete with the usual anti-Arab cliches.

marco murphy

You might explain how attending a university open to Jewish and Arab students is comparable to strapping explosives to yourself, and attempting to suicide bomb a childrens birthday party.

???

wes

A sensible and fair decision to ban a University that is actively violating international law. Nice to see the law actually being applied to a country, that very often gets to violate it with no consequences.

dlofnep

Good work.

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

A sensible and fair decision to ban a University that is actively violating international law. Nice to see the law actually being applied to a country, that very often gets to violate it with no consequences.

So long as it's even handed and any Palestinians who happened to support terrorism against Israel would be treated the same way.

Sand

@ Nodin

Its well known that the EU has various blocks on Hamas. Are you being obtuse?

Well, thats a poor comparison on many levels, a reoccuring theme in your posts so far.

Even if we allow that the Spanish housing ministry and the EU are interchangeable(they're not), Hamas are terrorists who have carried out atrocities against civillian targets.

The university research team competing in a competition to further the fight against climate change are....a university research team.

You see how your comparison is terrible?

What has that to do with the occupation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

Absolutely nothing if recorded history started in 1948. Quite a bit otherwise.

Its irrelevant how many Arabs are members.

Of course it is. Its collective punishment, so the identity or beliefs of those who are being punished is irrelevant - theyre being targeted to punish others. It doesnt matter to the Israelis if a suicide bombers family disagreed with his politics when they bulldoze the familys house either.

Another sneering non-sequitur, replete with the usual anti-Arab cliches.

Oh but your usage of that formula of words was some soaring feat of oratory? Please.

You compared the punishments.

I compared the crimes.

@Perestroika

???

You wont have heard of this. Not really interesting or newsworthy afterall.

A hero of the Palestinian resistance strapped explosives to himself, found a Jewish childrens birthday party, waited for the crowd of guests to begin to leave and entered the group of children and parents and detonated his belt.

A 7 year old girl, a 3 year girl, both their parents, their 15 year old cousin, a seven month old baby, the babies mother, an 18 month old toddler and the toddlers 12 year old brother were killed by the suicide bomber.

Of course, he was probably driven to it by some trauma in his life. In reality, the suicide bomber is the victim. Not the childen he deliberately targeted and wiped out. After all, they started it.

The real assholes are those guys who attend a university.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

So long as it's even handed and any Palestinians who happened to support terrorism against Israel would be treated the same way.

The Palestinians are punished all the time. Hamas after they won the Palestinian election were immediately boycotted by most of the West. Then there is the siege of Gaza, which is happening due the complicity to the EU, US and Egypt.

Its not like that isn't well known, but the way some people are banging on here, as if poor little Israel is being picked on, which is so much nonsense of course. The Palestinian get punished all the time, and the moment Israel is punished people suddenly develop a very selective amnesia.

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

The Palestinians are punished all the time. Hamas after they won the Palestinian election were immediately boycotted by most of the West. Then there is the siege of Gaza, which is happening due the complicity to the EU, US and Egypt.

Its not like that isn't well known, but the way some people are banging on here, as if poor little Israel is being picked on, which is so much nonsense of course. The Palestinian get punished all the time, and the moment Israel is punished people suddenly develop a very selective amnesia.

And tbh they should be.

It's very easy for Irish people to sympathise with the oppressed Palestinians, but there are two sides to every story.

It always worries me when looking at how people approach the Middle East that most people are very biased one way or another.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

And tbh they should be.

Who, the Israeli's or the Palestinians?

I would like to point out that siege of Gaza is quite a bit worse, than some students not being allowed to be in a competition. The punishment used against the Palestinians are far more severe than that which Israel receives, despite Israel many murderous rampages against civilians as well. It pretty clear that the West values Palestinians lives less that that of a Israeli, to me.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It's very easy for Irish people to sympathise with the oppressed Palestinians, but there are two sides to every story.

Sure, there are. In the whole climate change debate to give an example, we have one side who says its man made, and another which says its natural or not happening at all. Now one of those sides is correct (those saying climate change is happening and man made) and the other is completely wrong.

Now, just because there are 2 sides, doesn't make them equally valid. You have to argue the merits of each side, and decide for yourself, if both are equally valid or if one side is basically right.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It always worries me when looking at how people approach the Middle East that most people are very biased one way or another.

Well, thats the way it is with most things. However, bias basically comes to your pov in the end.

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

Who, the Israeli's or the Palestinians?

I would like to point out that siege of Gaza is quite a bit worse, than some students not being allowed to be in a competition. The punishment used against the Palestinians are far more severe than that which Israel receives, despite Israel many murderous rampages against civilians as well. It pretty clear that the West values Palestinians lives less that that of a Israeli, to me.

Both.

The West and the Arab world.

Sure, there are. In the whole climate change debate to give an example, we have one side who says its man made, and another which says its natural or not happening at all. Now one of those sides is correct (those saying climate change is happening and man made) and the other is completely wrong.

Now, just because there are 2 sides, doesn't make them equally valid. You have to argue the merits of each side, and decide for yourself, if both are equally valid or if one side is basically right.

I think in this case you've got two sides who are both in the wrong really. Or, more accurately, two sides who've both done terrible things to each other.

Well, thats the way it is with most things. However, bias basically comes to your pov in the end.

Yup.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Both.

The West and the Arab world.

Ok.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I think in this case you've got two sides who are both in the wrong really. Or, more accurately, two sides who've both done terrible things to each other.

I would personally be of the opinion, that all violence (for both sides) is a direct result of the occupation and that the side that has the power to end the occupation is the occupier.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

@ Nodin

Well, thats a poor comparison on many levels, a reoccuring theme in your posts so far.

Even if we allow that the Spanish housing ministry and the EU are interchangeable(they're not), Hamas are terrorists who have carried out atrocities against civillian targets.

The university research team competing in a competition to further the fight against climate change are....a university research team.

You see how your comparison is terrible?
.

And the occupation of the land that allows that University to be claimed by Israel is enforced with fluffy kittens, not the IDF, who haven't killed, beaten and tortured thousands in the process. Not to mention the land confiscation and construction of colonies.

Sand wrote: »

Of course it is. Its collective punishment, so the identity or beliefs of those who are being punished is irrelevant - theyre being targeted to punish others. It doesnt matter to the Israelis if a suicide bombers family disagreed with his politics when they bulldoze the familys house either.
.

The majority of South African police in Apartheid times were "black". Does that somehow mean Apartheid wasn't evil and that sanctions never should have been brought?

Sand wrote: »

Oh but your usage of that formula of words was some soaring feat of oratory? Please..

Yep, when in doubt, sneer.

Don't you normally just post to inform us how pointless the whole debate is?

Sand wrote: »

Of course, he was probably driven to it by some trauma in his life. In reality, the suicide bomber is the victim. Not the childen he deliberately targeted and wiped out. After all, they started it...

O is it Atrocity Bingo time? Deadly.

Palestinian children killed by the IDF outnumber Israeli children killed by 4 or 5 to 1. Please amuse us with the list of excuses for that, especially the ones killed by sniper fire.

Sand

And the occupation of the land that allows that University to be claimed by Israel is enforced with fluffy kittens, not the IDF, who haven't killed, beaten and tortured thousands in the process. Not to mention the land confiscation and construction of colonies.

Again, the University is not the IDF. If you have a problem with the IDF, punish the IDF.

We are again on collective punishment - punishing people for some connection to criminals.

I really dont see how someone can welcome the expulsion of otherwise unremarkable university students as being just, and yet howl about the injustice of a family home belonging to a suicide bomber's family being demolished. The same logic underpins both - collective punishment to provide incentives for the group to police themselves.

The majority of South African police in Apartheid times were "black". Does that somehow mean Apartheid wasn't evil and that sanctions never should have been brought?

It means banning a South African university team just because they were South African, and potentially Black South African, would have been A - pointless, B - somewhat self defeating.

Yep, when in doubt, sneer.

Hey, I just liked your logic so much I "liberated" it for my own purposes. You ought to be pleased.

Don't you normally just post to inform us how pointless the whole debate is?

It is. I have'nt noticed world peace break out during the duration of this thread. Just people trampling across principles and evidence in the rush to the unquestioned support of the poor, downtrodden people of....well, who is it this week?

O is it Atrocity Bingo time? Deadly.

Palestinian children killed by the IDF outnumber Israeli children killed by 4 or 5 to 1. Please amuse us with the list of excuses for that, especially the ones killed by sniper fire.

Meh, Palestinians send their kids to be suicide bombers, or to attack front line soldiers with stones. Israelis keep their kids in school and keep them safe as they can.

Statistics arent as revealing as you might believe. Whilst civillian casualties are inevitable when you send soldiers into a built up urban area, those deaths tend to be accidental: rounds designed to pierce armour go right through a wall/house hitting people behind. There was absolutely nothing accidental about the murder I linked. It was chilling, deliberate, targeted murder of children. The hatred underlying it is disturbing. I would not champion such people as the poor, downtrodden.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Again, the University is not the IDF. If you have a problem with the IDF, punish the IDF..

The University is competing on behalf of Israel. To recognise it as a valid competitor is to defacto recognise the occupation. The occupation is illegal.

Sand wrote: »

I really dont see how someone can welcome the expulsion of otherwise unremarkable university students as being just, and yet howl about the injustice of a family home belonging to a suicide bomber's family being demolished. The same logic underpins both - collective punishment to provide incentives for the group to police themselves...

The latter is a violent act against the defencless, the former a rejection of colonialism in the form of a mild rebuke.

Of course this kind of thing could be stopped, leaving only acts of violence as the methods of protest open....

Sand wrote: »

It means banning a South African university team just because they were South African, and potentially Black South African, would have been A - pointless, B - somewhat self defeating....

Yet South Africa was boycotted and its international isolation helped end apartheid.

Sand wrote: »

It is. I have'nt noticed world peace break out during the duration of this thread. Just people trampling across principles and evidence in the rush to the unquestioned support of the poor, downtrodden people of....well, who is it this week?
....

They're being forcibly colonised. Thats a "wrong" regardless of when, who or how.

Sand wrote: »

Meh, Palestinians (......) downtrodden.

Two stereotypical answers down, another three to go.

And yes, civillian casualities are inevitable when an occupying force is an urban area, or indeed anywhere else. They increase when that force is there to faciltate the building of colonies (illegal colonies) and supress the population to that end.

Is that meant to excuse the burglars raiding the house for their killing of the occupants? I mean, if they only went in with robbery in mind and just had to kill a few to get the job done....

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

I would personally be of the opinion, that all violence (for both sides) is a direct result of the occupation and that the side that has the power to end the occupation is the occupier.

This is just me, but I would blame;

1. Israel for occupying that land
2. The Arab nations around Palestine who treat the Palestinians so poorly. Jordan or Syria should have taken hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and resettled them decades ago.
3. The people who put Israel there in the first place. The Jews were dumped in British Palestine, given a country, and then promptly abandoned when the Arabs attacked them. From day one they've grown up as a nation knowing that each and every one of their neighbours wants to wipe them out.

Such an attitude means they will never be able to let their guard down and will continue committing atrocities, because they're constantly 'at war' and have been since the 40s, and will probably always be, given that they're a Jewish nation in an area the Arabs claim they rightfully stole centuries ago.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

1. Israel for occupying that land

Alright.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

2. The Arab nations around Palestine who treat the Palestinians so poorly. Jordan or Syria should have taken hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and resettled them decades ago.

The Palestinians want to go back to there homes, so resettlement is not much a redress for that, but your right that the Arab states should have treated the Palestinians much better.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

3. The people who put Israel there in the first place. The Jews were dumped in British Palestine, given a country, and then promptly abandoned when the Arabs attacked them. From day one they've grown up as a nation knowing that each and every one of their neighbours wants to wipe them out.

Such an attitude means they will never be able to let their guard down and will continue committing atrocities, because they're constantly 'at war' and have been since the 40s, and will probably always be, given that they're a Jewish nation in an area the Arabs claim they rightfully stole centuries ago.

Sorry, you will find that the Zionists wanted to go there, and actively lobbied for a Jewish state in Palestine. They also actively did there best to get Jews to move to Palestine. So they were hardly dumped there. The Zionists wanted a state there and found people in the international community to help them achieve this aim.

Also, going some place with the express intention of taking over will always result in conflict. The Zionists actions was always going to result in conflict. It was the inevitable result. You go looking for a fight, you really shouldn't be surprised when you find one imho.

turgon

I previously tried to spark a debate on how, whereas the Palestinian death toll is higher, the motivation to kill Israelis is much greater and more evil. This fell flat on its feet: in the dogmatic "close one eye and be king" view of the world held by sympathizers of Hamas, the Israeli state is wholly and utterly 100% evil yet Hamas only slightly (and justifiably) so. The Palestinian citizens are perfect and are being constantly wronged, yet keeping Israeli citizens out of a Climate Change competition is Right. The hypocrisy is so great and so thorough that I dont think the Hamas sympathizers can even sense it slightly.

Sand

The University is competing on behalf of Israel. To recognise it as a valid competitor is to defacto recognise the occupation. The occupation is illegal.

Its competing on behalf of the university. Just as much as the various European universities are competing on behalf of their campus as opposed too some national team...

The latter is a violent act against the defencless, the former a rejection of colonialism in the form of a mild rebuke.

Of course this kind of thing could be stopped, leaving only acts of violence as the methods of protest open....

The latter is a punishment of a violent act against the defenceless, the former is the punishment of the crime of attending a university.

Theres no escaping it - the punishments scale with the crime, as they should, but the underlying principle: collective punishment, is inherent to both.

But please, do continue in the double think...

Yet South Africa was boycotted and its international isolation helped end apartheid.

Helped? Perhaps. Perhaps it was effectively irrelevant? I can understand the boycott of military applicable goods to Israel ( so long as a similar boycott was effected on the Palestinians), but I dont see how boycotting civillian academics, who can help guide the future direction of their peoples, is helpful. Will the Israelis do a big period of soul searching over this event? No - more than likely they will chalk it up to Spanish anti-semitism and retreat further into the siege mentality that they can only rely upon themselves for their own defence. Given that, they will be more open to aggressive mindsets for dealing with the Palestinian threat to their state.

The significant factor in South Africa would have been that apartheid was inherently unsustainable - as you pointed out yourself the majority of the security forces imposing apartheid were black. Apartheid was a relic of a particular time - regardless of the boycott, the white minority was always going to have to reach some sort of deal with the black majority. Simple numbers, without the support of British imperialism, dictated as much. Without international backing ( Either the British Empire, or some alternative) then white rule was simply waiting for the big uprising the security forces couldnt control, or worse would join themselves.

Israel is not attempting to rule the Palestinians or integrate them into the Israeli state - they are simply projecting their power and influence forward into the "badlands" around their border to protect their people - and in doing so are reaching into the same toolbox every successful militant state has employed when faced with dangerous frontiers and hostile tribes: military occupation, garrison settlements, pacification.

International boycotts will not help the Israelis reach some ephiphany of "Maybe if we give Hamas everything they want, and say were really, really sorry theyll be nice to us!" It will probably just reinforce their militant tendencies and the belief that when it comes up against it, they cant depend on the EU to even talk to them, let alone defend them. Israel tends to have an immense chip on its shoulder, called the Holocaust when cynics might note that more Europeans tended to colloborate with shoving Jews into ovens and rejecting Jewish refugees as opposed to defending them. Thats an unfair assement, but its a certain mindset.

The Israelis do not trust the EU. They just dont. They see EU funding flooding into the pockets of Hamas. They see the EU states being overwhelmingly hostile to Israel, they see anti-semitism on the rise in Europe (the latest being a Swedish newspaper frontpaging claims that the IDF killed Palestinians to harvest their organs, the old "Jews drinking Arab childrens bloodd on Passover" slur updated for the 21st century) and they percieve the EU as being biased against them.

They dont trust the UN either. They remember the last time UN troops simply withdrew rather than seriously defend the border with Egypt against an Egyptian attack. Again, reinforcing the mindset that Israel must look to its own defences. Whilst some point to the number of UN condemnations of Israel that have been vetoed by the US for being one sided, Israelis note that all those condemnations were one sided and ignored the atrocities of various Palestinian terrorist groups. Further undermining their trust in the UN.

Now, maybe you think such isolationism and encouraging a siege mentality is a good thing - but perhaps better results might be brought about by some carrot, as well as stick.

Ban the IDF or defence exports...fine. Banning a university team with a project to help climate change...stupid. Sends completely the wrong message. You need to build trust and engagement on the one hand, otherwise the criticisms offered with the other are easily dismissed. The world needs to build bridges with the non crazy god squad Israelis, help them climb out of the bunkers as opposed to abandoning them to the mindset of the ****ing crazies.

I mean christ...how does it help the Palestinians to encourage a siege mentality in their opponents where EU and UN criticism becomes irrelevant to Israelis because "They're against us anyway". It's easy to dismiss the criticism of your enemies, very hard to dismiss the criticism of your friends.

But yeah, never mind me. I'm sure you've got the winning strategy cracked. Keep it up, its only been 51 years, far too early to tell yet.

Two stereotypical answers down, another three to go.

Sorry, do I need to link the examples of child suicide bombers? The TV shows where children are encouraged to become suicide bombers? The scenes where Palestinian kids are sent to fight soldiers with stones, because it will be good for the cameras and the propaganda value?

If Israelis did all these things with their kids, then your simple number crunching might have merit...otherwise we're forced to acknowledge that if you send some children up against a front line military whilse sending another set to school, you are going to get disproprotional numbers of kids killed in the former set.

I dont know about you, but I encourage Palestinians to educate their kids and encourage themselves to get jobs. Id be ****ing furious if some kids TV show was trying to persuade any child that being a suicide bomber was the best thing that could happen to them.

Crazy, I know.

And yes, civillian casualities are inevitable when an occupying force is an urban area, or indeed anywhere else.

Agreed. Any time a full on battle takes place in an urban center with modern small arms, explosives, artillery, armour and gunships...civillians will get hurt, even with the best of intentions. Even the Nazis decided to abandon Paris without a serious fight rather than expose the population to the destruction of an urban battle like Stalingrad. Why Hamas encourages Israelis raids and attacks by using urban centers as cover...well it's a mystery.

Is that meant to excuse the burglars raiding the house for their killing of the occupants? I mean, if they only went in with robbery in mind and just had to kill a few to get the job done....

I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has moved beyond your simple analysis. The Israelis arent burglars. They live there. The other house mates dont like them, but thats too bad.

Remember, the state of Israel isnt going to vanish just because you dont believe it should exist.

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

The Palestinians want to go back to there homes, so resettlement is not much a redress for that, but your right that the Arab states should have treated the Palestinians much better.

We're definitely in agreement here.

Sorry, you will find that the Zionists wanted to go there, and actively lobbied for a Jewish state in Palestine. They also actively did there best to get Jews to move to Palestine. So they were hardly dumped there. The Zionists wanted a state there and found people in the international community to help them achieve this aim.

Yeah, I know.

But however way you look at it, the mechanics used were flawed. Compensation or something, anything should have been given. It was never going to be fair, but reducing unfairness as much as possible should have been paramount.

Also, going some place with the express intention of taking over will always result in conflict. The Zionists actions was always going to result in conflict. It was the inevitable result. You go looking for a fight, you really shouldn't be surprised when you find one imho.

Absolutely. And that works both ways - because both sides had/have a claim to the area. What else could happen but conflict? Grim and futile inevitability of human existence sadly.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Yeah, I know.

But however way you look at it, the mechanics used were flawed. Compensation or something, anything should have been given. It was never going to be fair, but reducing unfairness as much as possible should have been paramount.

Well yeah pretty much, a lot of people got screwed over.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Absolutely. And that works both ways - because both sides had/have a claim to the area. What else could happen but conflict? Grim and futile inevitability of human existence sadly.

Yeah, pretty much, but by the same token people can rise above the crap and sort things out.

wes

turgon wrote: »

I previously tried to spark a debate on how, whereas the Palestinian death toll is higher, the motivation to kill Israelis is much greater and more evil. This fell flat on its feet: in the dogmatic "close one eye and be king" view of the world held by sympathizers of Hamas, the Israeli state is wholly and utterly 100% evil yet Hamas only slightly (and justifiably) so. The Palestinian citizens are perfect and are being constantly wronged, yet keeping Israeli citizens out of a Climate Change competition is Right. The hypocrisy is so great and so thorough that I dont think the Hamas sympathizers can even sense it slightly.

Ah, yes the old accuse random people of being Hamas sympathizers. That one never gets old. No, one btw claimed anyone of being perfect either or any one of being "100% evil", but it is fair easier to invent a argument that no one on the thread has made and argue against that instead.

The irony here is that you are the one using the terms such as "evil" to describe one side of the conflict.

I think the old saying of actions speak louder than words apply here. People can spout all kinds of lovely words, but if they then go on murderous rampages, then I think its fair to say there words are worthless, and quite frankly it is nonsensical to try and present words as some kind excuse, to people who murder innocent civilians.

Honestly, one side is more pc in there speech than the other, but still manages to kill a whole lot of people more than the other guy, who has a bigger mouth on them, and somehow the more pc side are better? The way I see it killing innocent people is bad, regardless of the flowery prose people use to excuse it. The nicest words in the world are worthless, if people the saying them still murders innocent people, and ultimately it doesn't change a damn thing.

Now back to the colonists. You see the colonists are breaking international law, and they do so knowingly. They are based in the occupied territories, which they know violates international law, the people involved are not children and are adults who are responsible for there own actions. All we are seeing for once is colonists being punished for violating international law, something which happens to the Palestinians all the time on a far greater scale and often applied to people who have done nothing wrong, but the moment any kind of punishment is applied to Israels colonists (who are once again knowingly breaking international law, regardless of how hard there apologists try to pretend otherwise), people are suddenly concerned about such things. These aren't people sitting in Tel Aviv minding there own business, but people involved in a violent colonial process, and to present them as some how being innocent of there own actions is laughable and basically denies the facts of the matter as per usual to try and make out that poor little Israel is being picked on, when nothing could be farther from the truth.