ONE SMALL STEP FOR MAN, ONE GIANT LEAP FOR PALESTINE! GRACIAS ESPA A !!

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Its competing on behalf of the university. Just as much as the various European universities are competing on behalf of their campus as opposed too some national team....

It's competing as an Israeli university. It is located outside the state of Israels borders, in a territory where the majority of the population wish to have nothing to do with Israel.

Sand wrote: »

The latter is a punishment of a violent act against the defenceless, the former is the punishment of the crime of attending a university.....

A university located in occupied territory.

You seem to be unable to grasp the difference between a diplomatic snub and a violent act.

Are all suicide bombings aimed at the "defenceless"?

Sand wrote: »

Helped? Perhaps. Perhaps it was effectively irrelevant? I can understand the boycott of military applicable goods to Israel ( so long as a similar boycott was effected on the Palestinians), but I dont see how boycotting civillian academics, who can help guide the future direction of their peoples, is helpful......

It isolates Israel, rams home the message that the occupation is wrong, that Israel is expanding outside its borders. And brings publicity for the cause.

Sand wrote: »

The significant factor in South Africa would have been that apartheid was inherently unsustainable - as you pointed out yourself the majority of the security forces imposing apartheid were black. Apartheid was a relic of a particular time ......

Yes, as hopefully one day the end of Israels colonisation will be seen as a relic of unilateral US support.

Sand wrote: »

Israel is not attempting to rule the Palestinians or integrate them into the Israeli state - they are simply projecting their power and influence forward into the "badlands" around their border to protect their people - and in doing so are reaching into the same toolbox every successful militant state has employed when faced with dangerous frontiers and hostile tribes: military occupation, garrison settlements, pacification.......

"garrison settlements"? You aren't very aqquainted with the majority of Israeli settlements then. Its quite obvious that its a land grab, and nothing to do with "security". In fact, by placing these settlements, Israel is undermining its own security.

Sand wrote: »

If Israelis did all these things with their kids, then your simple number crunching might have merit...otherwise we're forced to acknowledge that if you send some children up against a front line military whilse sending another set to school, you are going to get disproprotional numbers of kids killed in the former set........

Which again sets the blame on the occupied and not the occupier. Funny enough.

I might add that Israel does indeed indoctrinate its children - it just happens to be more subtle about it.

Sand wrote: »

The Israelis (.......)them. ........

Fascinating. A state occupies and colonises territory outsides its borders, brutalises the locals for a number of decades, yet we're supposed to worry about its 'feelings'.

Sand wrote: »

Now, maybe you think such isolationism and encouraging a siege mentality is a good thing - but perhaps better results might be brought about by some carrot, as well as stick.

Thanks to the US, there is no stick, and rather too much carrot. There are no meaningful embargos or sanctions against Israel. Thus why this small gesture is getting a thread.

Sand wrote: »

Agreed. Any time a (..........)as cover...well it's a mystery..

Possibly because they have no choice. Why do you keep focusing on Hamas and Gaza? The West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem are the ones under occupation at the moment.

Sand wrote: »

I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has moved beyond your simple analysis. The Israelis arent burglars. They live there. The other house mates dont like them, but thats too bad...

Then why did the world sanction a war against Iraq when it annexed Kuwait?

And yes, as the land was taken by force, or under threat of force, or by 'orders' which have no legal weight outside Israels borders, it is indeed an act of theft.

Sand wrote: »

Remember, the state of Israel isnt going to vanish just because you dont believe it should exist.

Do me a favour. Please highlight where I said the state of Israel should not exist, with a link back to the post please.

Goudance

Sands, please take off your zionist Israeli glasses and see the real truth please, instead of coming out with the crap you are spouting here.
Here are a few of your lies and half truths.

"Will the Israelis do a big period of soul searching over this event? No - more than likely they will chalk it up to Spanish anti-semitism and retreat further into the siege mentality that they can only rely upon themselves for their own defence. Given that, they will be more open to aggressive mindsets for dealing with the Palestinian threat to their state"

Yes Sands, blame anti semitism once again for critism of Israel. It is the oldest trick in the book for Israeli's, whereby any critism of them is automatically judged to be anti semitic. It is a well worn out record by now! Rely on themselve for defense? How do you make that out whenever they are supported and armed beyond belief by the US, UK, and EU in defense? Who arms them Sands?

"I think the old saying of actions speak louder than words apply here. People can spout all kinds of lovely words, but if they then go on murderous rampages, then I think its fair to say there words are worthless, and quite frankly it is nonsensical to try and present words as some kind excuse, to people who murder innocent civilians. "

I take it you are referring to the Israeli's here who have murdered more innocent civillians that Palestinian groups have?

"they see anti-semitism on the rise in Europe (the latest being a Swedish newspaper frontpaging claims that the IDF killed Palestinians to harvest their organs, "

So, when the truth is exposed about their human organ harvesting, they go on the "anti semitism" rant once more. Do you not know the truth about their havesting? Have you read anything about it? Do you not remember the story about the 1st heart transplant in Israel? Where they took the heart from a Palestinian patient and let him die? Read up Sands on some of the stories, and if reporting them is anti semitic, then god help us.

"The scenes where Palestinian kids are sent to fight soldiers with stones, because it will be good for the cameras and the propaganda value?"

I take it you havn't seen the images of Israeli school kids writting murderous mssages on the IDF missiles before they bombed and killed innocent children in Gaza?

"I dont know about you, but I encourage Palestinians to educate their kids and encourage themselves to get jobs

How do you encourage Palestinians to educate their kids and encourage them to get jobs? Do you not know that because of the wall in the west bank, travel to work and school is totally restriced and they are effectivly cut off fom schools, jobs and their land? Do you not know that since the siege beagn in Gaza 3 years ago, and everyone was locked up in there, thousands of men lost their jobs as they coldn't travel? Do you not know that during the 22 day massacre, Israel bombed practically every industry left, and by refusing to allow in building materials, effectivly shut them down for good. Plus, do you not remember all those schools and universities that were destroyed as well in the massacre? Remember the UN schools that were hit with illegal White Phosphorus shells, killing so many school kids in the process?

I have saved this classic piece of rubbish from you to the last:

"The Israelis arent burglars"

Now Sands, where do you get off comming out with sh1te like this?
Is it not a fact that they have stole large swathes of land in the west bank, illegall under internatiional law? Have they not stole land during the building of the illegal apartheid wall? What about all hose houses they stole? Have they not stole water from the Palestinians?
Oh, and just to back up my facts, and prove that they are thieves, (if you dont believe the UN and internatiional laws), what about the IDF soldier who stole an ATM card from an innocent man in Gaza after he was murdered, and then cleaned out his bank account? Now, wasn't he a noble soldier?

So, Sands, before you come out with any more of your Zionist propaganda, learn a bit of history, study the facts, see the truh, and then you wont look stupid when you post again.

Goudance

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1046041.html

Link to story on heart transplant/thieft

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1106996.html

Link to story on ATM card thieft

http://www.ifamericansknew.com/cur_sit/sweden.html

Another interesting article on their thieft of human organs

wes

Goudance wrote: »

"I think the old saying of actions speak louder than words apply here. People can spout all kinds of lovely words, but if they then go on murderous rampages, then I think its fair to say there words are worthless, and quite frankly it is nonsensical to try and present words as some kind excuse, to people who murder innocent civilians. "

I take it you are referring to the Israeli's here who have murdered more innocent civillians that Palestinian groups have?

I assume your referring to my post, and I was talking about Israel in response to turgon's defence of Israel's actions, because they don't quite as many mean things as Hamas, but go out and do them instead. So yeah talking about Israel.

dvpower

Sand wrote: »

Its competing on behalf of the university. Just as much as the various European universities are competing on behalf of their campus as opposed too some national team...

Not quite. Here's how the university describes itself on its own website

As a demonstratively Zionist institution, the University Center has two key requirements: every student must study one course per semester on some aspect of Judaism, Jewish heritage or Land of Israel studies, and the Israeli flag must be displayed in every classroom, laboratory and auditorium on campus.

Nodin

Sand wrote:

Agreed. Any time a full on battle takes place in an urban center with modern small arms, explosives, artillery, armour and gunships...civillians will get hurt, even with the best of intentions. Even the Nazis decided to abandon Paris without a serious fight rather than expose the population to the destruction of an urban battle like Stalingrad. Why Hamas encourages Israelis raids and attacks by using urban centers as cover...well it's a mystery.

Presumably its all the Palestinians fault for this as well......

POLITICS IS playing as important a part as available evidence this week, as the UN Human Rights Council decides whether to recommend war crimes trials for atrocities in Gaza.
Such investigations are recommended in a long-awaited report by international jurist Richard Goldstone presented yesterday to the council, in which he highlighted numerous violations in Israel’s military campaign, which cost 1,400 lives.

Certainly, the report pulls no punches. It lists numerous violations by Israel during its January offensive, including the targeting, with white phosphorus shells, of Gaza’s Al Quds and Al Wafa hospitals, and a UN compound sheltering 600 refugees.

It lists complaints that Israeli troops used Palestinian civilians, often blindfolded, as “human shields” while searching suspect buildings.
And it says Israeli forces also struck at non-military targets such as water plants and Gaza’s only flour mill, along with a sewage treatment plant, which led to 200,000 cubic metres of raw sewage flooding nearby farmland.

Most bizarre was the destruction of a giant chicken farm which supplied Gaza with 10 per cent of its eggs.
“Armoured bulldozers systematically flattened the chicken coups, killing all 31,000 chickens inside,” it reports. “The destruction of food supply installations, water sanitation systems, concrete factories and residential houses was the result of a deliberate and systematic policy by the Israeli armed forces,” says the report.
Justice Goldstone writes that the evidence, collected over several visits to Gaza, indicates that civilian targets were deliberately hit, a violation of the rules of war.

“There were almost no mistakes made according to the government of Israel,” the report says, describing the attacks as “a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population”.

link

Those chickens...obviously a dire threat to the security of the neighbouring nuclear power. Flour mill had to go of course. Some 'militant' might have put some on his face and frightened an Israeli by pretending to be a ghost.

Mind you, the great victory over the Chickens should come as no suprise - they did run over the petting zoo in a similar fashion a few years back, presumably to prevent young children being indoctrinated in petting cute animals.......

getcover

Sand wrote: »

You might explain how attending a university open to Jewish and Arab students is comparable to strapping explosives to yourself, and attempting to suicide bomb a childrens birthday party.

No particular interest in Middle east politics, but I've noticed that this kind of sentence regularly features in any "riposte" to any point which purports to side with or to have understanding for the Palestinian people.
Its a sly and nasty trick, designed to imply that the person who the sentence is aimed at is a supporter of child murder.
It's pathetic in the extreme and doesn't say much for the ability of the poster to have any sort of sensible debate.

Sand

That everyone? Alright...lets get started.

@Nodin

You seem to be unable to grasp the difference between a diplomatic snub and a violent act.

You seem unable to grasp that punishments ramp with the crime: Attend the wrong univesity? Youre banned from the competion. Suicide bomb civillians? Your families home gets bulldozed.

Theyre both collective punishment. One collective punishment of a minor crime, the other collective punishment of a major crime. Hence one being more harsh than the other. Which was your initial confusion leading to this tangent IIRC.

It isolates Israel....with a link back to the post please.

Like I said, keep it up. The Palestinians have been getting great strategical advice from their friends abroad for decades. I mean, look where they are now given where they were with the original UN partition plan. More than half a century of brilliant principled resistance, unsullied by reason, logic, reality or practicality.

I'm sure Israel is in total turmoil that a University team has been banned from a competition hosted by an EU member state. Probably this has sparked a a period of introspection and soul searching. The Israeli PM must have collapsed in shock - a university team kicked out for coming from an Israeli university!

Or maybe it just reinforced the siege mentality. A minor, pointless act, which offered no real benefit to Palestinians - just alienated Israelis who might otherwise be engaged with and moderated.

@Goudance

Eh, your post is basically meandering nonsense where you dont actually read what I posted - you'll probably think thats unfair so heres an example to help you improve your posting:

What I said:

"Will the Israelis do a big period of soul searching over this event? No - more than likely they will chalk it up to Spanish anti-semitism and retreat further into the siege mentality that they can only rely upon themselves for their own defence. Given that, they will be more open to aggressive mindsets for dealing with the Palestinian threat to their state"

What you responded with:

Yes Sands, blame anti semitism once again for critism of Israel.

See the bold parts? See where I reffered to the Israelis? And then "They"? See how that refers to a mindset of the Israelis, not my mindset? See how Im not blaming anti-semitism for all criticism of Israel? But referring to it as a likely Israeli reaction to this pointless, self defeating act?

Great. No need to thank me. Just post something worth the time spent glancing over it next time.

@dvpower

Not quite. Here's how the university describes itself on its own website

I know, I read the website already?

@ Nodin again

Those chickens...obviously a dire threat to the security of the neighbouring nuclear power. Flour mill had to go of course. Some 'militant' might have put some on his face and frightened an Israeli by pretending to be a ghost.

Uh, its collective punishment?

It works on exactly the same logic as you defend for the banning of the uni students: imposing a cost on the entire community for not preventing, enabling or assisting in something that is dissaproved of.

In this case, in response to rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel, the Israelis imposed an economic cost on the entire Gaza Strip.

Now feel free to disagree with collective punishment whilst advocating collective punishment.

Oh and feel free to explain to me how collective punishment of Gaza will only breed more militant attitudes in Palestinians whilst collective punishment of Israel will lead to more moderate, peaceful types.

Yeah, I'll like that.
@getcover

No particular interest in Middle east politics, but I've noticed that this kind of sentence regularly features in any "riposte" to any point which purports to side with or to have understanding for the Palestinian people.
Its a sly and nasty trick, designed to imply that the person who the sentence is aimed at is a supporter of child murder.
It's pathetic in the extreme and doesn't say much for the ability of the poster to have any sort of sensible debate.

Nodins original point:

You might also explain how being banned from an international competition is comparable to the destruction of housing, denial of water and food resources etc

So to clarify getcover, youre saying Nodins original post/comment was pathetic in the extreme, and doesnt say much for his ability to have any sort of sensible debate?

Thats a tad harsh to be honest.

getcover

Sand wrote: »

@getcover

Nodins original point:


So to clarify getcover, youre saying Nodins original post/comment was pathetic in the extreme, and doesnt say much for his ability to have any sort of sensible debate?

Thats a tad harsh to be honest.

When in a hole stop digging.
A pathetic reply, much like you child murder comment.
I shouldn't have expected anything else really...

Sand

@getcover

When in a hole stop digging.
A pathetic reply, much like you child murder comment.
I shouldn't have expected anything else really...

Yeah thought so - Like I said to Nodin, when I use his logic, his very own words, its terrible. When he uses it though, its some soaring feat of oratory.

:rolleyes:

The sad thing is whilst you bemoan the lack of debate on the topic I dont see many others offering much or engaging much in actual debate: This thread was just "HIGH FIVES GUISE!!!" until people were asked to explain why collective punishment worked in this case, why it was useful, how it helped - but apparently that debate is not wanted. Instead lets all just post insightful stuff like "Nice one".

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

You seem unable to grasp that punishments ramp with the crime: Attend the wrong univesity? Youre banned from the competion. Suicide bomb civillians? Your families home gets bulldozed.
.

"attend the wrong university"? Its a university built by one nation, outside its borders and claimed as its own. You've yet to address that.

Sand wrote: »

Like I said, keep it up. The Palestinians have been getting great strategical advice from their friends abroad for decades. I mean, look where they are now given where they were with the original UN partition plan. More than half a century of brilliant principled resistance, unsullied by reason, logic, reality or practicality. .

As recourse to the UN was blocked by US veto, what would you have them do?

Sand wrote: »

I'm sure Israel is in total turmoil that a University team has been banned from a competition hosted by an EU member state. Probably this has sparked a a period of introspection and soul searching. The Israeli PM must have collapsed in shock - a university team kicked out for coming from an Israeli university!.

Block the universities, the sports teams, anything and everything.

As has been pointed out, they aren't being blocked for being from an Israeli university, but because they are from one built in the illegally occupied territories. Thats the point you seem so keen to dance around.

Sand wrote: »

Or maybe it just reinforced the siege mentality. A minor, pointless act, which offered no real benefit to Palestinians - just alienated Israelis who might otherwise be engaged with and moderated.

The occcupation cannot be treated as normal. Theirs plenty of room for engagement outside of that.

Sand wrote: »

t works on exactly the same logic as you defend for the banning of the uni students: imposing a cost on the entire community for not preventing, enabling or assisting in something that is dissaproved of..

Again, there is no comparison between them. The barring of the illegally sited university is a non-violent protest against a violent act.

Acts of resistance against Israeli military targets which are legitimate and defined, generate similar indiscriminate reprisal.

The occupation and colonisation is illegal regardless of Palestinian activity.

Earlier you stated

Sand wrote:

Remember, the state of Israel isnt going to vanish just because you dont believe it should exist.

Where did I state that I believed Israel should not exist? A link and quote please.

Sand

"attend the wrong university"? Its a university built by one nation, outside its borders and claimed as its own. You've yet to address that.

Whats to address? The students on the team didnt build the university - they just attended it.

The rest of your post is circular - Sadly most Israel-Palestine threads end up this way. If you come up with something insightful, great, I'll comment but otherwise theres nothing to address except a couple of tangents Ive no interest in or stuff I've already addressed where you just repeat your position.

Where did I state that I believed Israel should not exist? A link and quote please.

Where did I state that you stated it? A link and quote please...

You referred to them as burglars, which by the very use of the term undermines their legitmacy.

You Godwinned them on your second post in this thread, comparing the Israeli research team to Werner Von Braun and the Nazi use of slave labour.

On your fourth post you defended unbalanced punishments of Israeli actions on the basis that Israel was the aggressor, the coloniser, the occupier.

There is a pattern emerging there. Sue me for picking up on it.

turgon

wes wrote: »

Ah, yes the old accuse random people of being Hamas sympathizers. That one never gets old.

The fact of the matter is that if you refuse to condemn the innocent slaughter of of children by Hamas, which is done regularly on here, that makes you a Hamas sympathizer.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Whats to address? The students on the team didnt build the university - they just attended it..

And that changes what? The university is outside Israels borders and thus part of the colonisation attempt.

Sand wrote: »

You referred to them as burglars, which by the very use of the term undermines their legitmacy. ..

Anything in the OT has no legitamacy, and thats not just according to me.

Sand wrote: »

You Godwinned them on your second post in this thread, comparing the Israeli research team to Werner Von Braun and the Nazi use of slave labour...

It was a reference to the amoral approach which puts the goal above any other consideration.

Sand wrote: »

On your fourth post you defended unbalanced punishments of Israeli actions on the basis that Israel was the aggressor, the coloniser, the occupier.
.

As its the one colonising the areas in question, outside the borders, they aren't "unbalanced", thats just the facts of the matter.

Now, where did I state that I believed the state of Israel should not exist, or imply same?

wes

turgon wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that if you refuse to condemn the innocent slaughter of of children by Hamas, which is done regularly on here, that makes you a Hamas sympathizer.

Plenty of people have condemned Hamas, I have done so in past threads, as have many others. Of course, its not like that actually matters, instead of trying to engage in any kind debate, you instead choose to accuse pretty much anyone who disagrees with you of supporting child murders, which is of course untrue, but a useful tactic of demonisation, that you won't bother to back up.

Personally, I do find you arguement ironic, seeing as your own defence of Israel, seeks to minimise Israels own murderous actions, based on the nice flowery prose they sometimes employ. Do you honestly think no one wpuld notice, that you basically do the exact same thing you accuse others of?

Sorry, but

:D

at the hyperbole of the thread title.

I was expecting something really big. What could this giant leap for Palestine be? Could this be the start of a new world order? No, apparently some Poindexters were sent home from a solar power competition!

Is the OP having a laugh at the expense of the Palestinians? Come on, surely by any stretch this is all pretty tiny stuff. What next, Mugabe on the brink 'cos another cricket tour is suspended?

whynotwhycanti

I’m glad conor74 can take amusement and humour from this. I personally think it has a lot more significance than he could ever imagine which really just highlights his ignorance of this situation in general.

If you could imagine a half decent Palestinian (NOT A TERRORIST) and they do exist, living under Israeli occupation in Gaza, who's home has been demolished so that Israel can expand its territories, maybe even lost a family member to the lovely IDF while 'moving' house. Now this person, watches by while the country that is illegally occupying his homeland is supported and armed by the US and the UK, it commits endless acts against humanity which have been highlighted by the UN but never acted upon. Suddenly, Spain decide to send home Israelis who have been studying in a university built in the West Bank which under European law is an illegal occupation. I don't think you can underestimate or even try play down the significance this has for the decent Palestinians, that finally a big western country has recognized that the occupation of its territories is illegal. They may have only sent home some pointdexters and this to you may surmount to a meaningless act which you find amusing but the fact is that they were sent home because Spain recognizes that Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank as this occupation is against European law. It is written in European law, and you are European whether you like it or not, that the occupation of the West Bank is illegal. It is the reason behind sending home these scientists that carries the most significance and I for one am delighted to see a Western country finally make a statement against Israel, even if it is only this gesture. Viva Espana

Sand

@Nodin

And that changes what? The university is outside Israels borders and thus part of the colonisation attempt.

It changes nothing. You dont like the university these students attended. They attended the wrong university in your eyes. Theyre being punished for that crime. So you approve of that punishment. They didnt build the university. But thats irrelevant. Theyre not being punished for building the university. Theyre being punished for attending it. Just stop denying that, and we can move on to something relevant.

Now, where did I state that I believed the state of Israel should not exist, or imply same?

Where did I state that you stated it? A link and quote please...

An answer would be appreciated....

@Conor74

I was expecting something really big. What could this giant leap for Palestine be? Could this be the start of a new world order? No, apparently some Poindexters were sent home from a solar power competition!

You have to remember the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is now moved beyond reality - its like climate change, or world peace, or 3rd world poverty. Its not so much about doing anything useful or practical - its about being morally superiour about it. The Palestinans have been urged by all their friends abroad to hold the course, deny reality, reject negotiation, settle for nothing less than everything, reassured that their violence is wrong, yet understandable....and look how well theyve done by that advice. The salvation of the Palestinian people is at hand....

I am actually struck by the memory of a similar thread I entered with an Egyptian poster...I made the point that that the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was irrelevant, only the practicalities of getting a settled peace was important. She rejected this completely - It was very important to determine and prove the blood guilt first...with Israel obviously being the guilty. The most important factor for her was for Israel to admit that they were the criminal.

I compared that utterly principled attitude with the attitude of a Palestinian doctor who wrote a letter during the Israeli attack on Gaza, where he noted the only important point was ending the violence, regardless of other factors. For Palestinians and Israelis this is a matter of life and death - for us distant spectators...its a matter of principle and feeling good about ourselves...by banning university teams. Its safe, its painless, theres no cost to us, and it makes us feel good.

High fives guise!

whynotwhycanti

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

I personally think it has a lot more significance than he could ever imagine which really just highlights his ignorance of this situation in general.

I was going to protest, but hey I see you yourself came around to my thinking too...

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

it is only this gesture.

Instead of getting all excited about the young solar scientist contest, whynotwhycanti, why don't you gimme a shout when they send in the tanks to enforce 'European law'.

Until then, let's not you and I wet our pants over what even you concede is only a 'gesture'.

whynotwhycanti

This may not mean anything to you but to an ordinary descent Palestinian it would mean alot. The fact that you cannot imagine that this gesture, yes i said gesture or whatever you want to call it, does not carry any significance does not one bit surprise me. It did however seem to bother people and the government in Israel who have come out to criticise it, oh and what was their main criticism, anti-semitism is on the rise in Spain. Firstly, give me facts to show this, and secondly please oh please present another argument to explain why some nations at times are not in total agreement with Israel and your illegal occupation of Palestine. The motto in Israel should be, 'you're either with us or you're an anti-semite'.

I will present you with a case point in history where certain irrelevant 'gestures' as you so see it can spread and lead to a huge difference. During apartheid in South Africa, what began as gestures against South African dignitaries spread into a global effort to boycott South Africa eventually leading to the abolishment of apartheid. I am not for one minute saying this is the beginning of such a global effort against Israel but you never know, history does tend to repeat itself.

whynotwhycanti

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

The fact that you cannot imagine that this gesture, yes i said gesture or whatever you want to call it, does not carry any significance does not one bit surprise me.

But you don't know me at all...how can what I say 'not surprise you'?

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

The motto in Israel should be, 'you're either with us or you're an anti-semite'

And the motto for Palestinian's terrorist leaders is 'you're either with us or (even if you're Palestinian but not in Hamas) we will kill you'. But these slogans don't really advance the matter.

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

During apartheid in South Africa, what began as gestures against South African dignitaries spread into a global effort to boycott South Africa eventually leading to the abolishment of apartheid.

That is true. Though not sure it is the same or even a similar issue.

biko

Manic Moran wrote: »

I hope that the Israelis didn't have the winning entry. The Israelis are not known for being technology slouches.

"We have scored a victory for the people of Palestine by removing the Israelis from a competitoin which could help to save the planet..."

NTM

Don't worry USA, the technology will find it's way to you anyway, just not this way.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

@Nodin
It changes nothing. You dont like the university these students attended. They attended the wrong university in your eyes.
Theyre being punished for that crime. So you approve of that punishment. They didnt build the university. But thats irrelevant. Theyre not being punished for building the university. Theyre being punished for attending it. Just stop denying that, and we can move on to something relevant.!

You seem again dead set on avoiding the facts. Its built on illegally occupied territory outside of Israels recognised borders. It's construction is the consequence of a harsh military occupation and the settlement of Israeli citizens by Israel in that area against all international law and at the great expense of the local inhabitants.

Your efforts to drag this down to "you don't like"/"in your eyes" ignore the actuality of the situation and have the tone of a junior cert essay.

Sand wrote:

An answer would be appreciated....

Sand wrote:

Remember, the state of Israel isnt going to vanish just because you dont believe it should exist.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62303368&postcount=28

At the bottom of post 28 there.....

whynotwhycanti

You are right conor74, I know nothing about you so I shouldn't say I can be surprised or have any feeling towards how you may react to this. However, i do know that Spain is quite a big and powerful western country, that their minister for the interior sent home these Israelis scientists because of their illegal occupation of the west bank which contravenes EU policy and that in anybody’s eyes has to at least send a message that perhaps not every nation will support Israel and their actions and that just perhaps international influence is starting to side with the people being oppressed, not the oppressors. yeah I guess its really a nothing case, I’m surprised the right wing media didn't simply quash this story and even allowed it onto the news sites. I mean if its just an irrelevant piece of news why are Israel so angered by it. Maybe they are not used to this, especially as America was half funding the solar convention, how could their old buddy let this happen.

When I speak of Palestine I speak of the decent Palestinian people, not hamas. Your motto simply applies to hamas where as mine could be applied to all echelons of Israeli society. Also don’t give me that old argument that they voted them in, it’s their own fault. Its not as if these people are part of a stable democracy where they can vote in different party systems.

I think you will also find that apartheid and the situation although being different share a huge amount of similarities. Again I don’t know you but the fact you can’t even notice any similarities is very strange. Where to start, one group of people oppressing another, controlling most aspects of their life, restricting their movements, issuing them with state documentation, extraditing them from their homes so their own people can move in and then moving them to other allocated areas, endless violations of human rights etc.. Now which one am I talking about here, the apartheid or the situation in Gaza. Yeah you’re right, they are not similar at all.

cabinteelytom

'settlements are illegal and invalid' ; UN resolution 338, and
Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory in the West Bank and Syria; UN resolution 242:
are correctly the cornerstones of EU policy towards Israel/Palestine.

The Spanish Ministry of Housing is correct to support the authority of the UN.

turgon

Sand wrote: »

I made the point that that the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was irrelevant, only the practicalities of getting a settled peace was important.

Oh that the world were so simple, what a better place it would be.

Everyone needs to get their heads out of the history books and into reality.