LISBON TREATY PANIC IN TURKEY - Vote NO!

squod · 28-09-2009 1:47pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Since accession requires unanimous acceptance, any country objecting prevents Turkey from acceding. The most prominent opponents at the moment are Sarkozy and Merkel, but the most persistent opponent is in fact Cyprus, for obvious reasons. Until Cyprus is prepared to accept Turkish accession, there will be no Turkish accession.

Presumably that means that Cyprus 'has the final say'? Do we live in a Cypriot-dominated EU?

amused,
Scofflaw

I hope your not suggesting we should trample on the rights of people from Cyprus.

Scofflaw · 28-09-2009 1:50pm

squod wrote: »

I hope your not suggesting we should trample on the rights of people from Cyprus.

By doing what, exactly?

perplexed,
Scofflaw

rumour · 28-09-2009 1:51pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Since accession requires unanimous acceptance, any country objecting prevents Turkey from acceding. The most prominent opponents at the moment are Sarkozy and Merkel, but the most persistent opponent is in fact Cyprus, for obvious reasons. Until Cyprus is prepared to accept Turkish accession, there will be no Turkish accession.

Presumably that means that Cyprus 'has the final say'? Do we live in a Cypriot-dominated EU?

amused,
Scofflaw

Lol, rather like the green party. Is Cyprus (part of it) not part of Greece? Anyway we will need further treaties to cope with the arrival of other newcomers and no doubt this whole debacle will start all over again.

Sam Vimes · 28-09-2009 1:56pm

rumour wrote: »

Alternatively the opposite is true, your analaytical skills are based on a false premise, being limited to binary analysis can have that effect.

Perhaps I simply know I do not have a point to prove. For example in a two way conversation how correct is it for a third party to state fact?

If you have a definitive answer to that, I may read it for entertainment and may even respond but I am certainly going to LMAO. Am I being defeated?

see Scofflaw's post

Also, I love how you:

Responded, thereby not giving me the last word as you said you would (but as I knew you wouldn't because no one who offers someone the last word ever lets them have it)
Restated your point while simultaneously dismissing its importance as I said you would in point 3 of the "allow your opponent to have the last word" tactic.
Again attempted to make me look ridiculous simply for replying by saying that you will "LMAO" at whatever I post in reply (all predicted so far)
Again gave yourself a way to duck out of the debate if my reply is too difficult to respond to by saying that if you do reply it will only be for "entertainment purposes" and if you don't it's because you care so little about this point (that you nevertheless keep attempting to make) and not at all because you can't reply

Now let's see if rumour will be true to his word this time and actually allow me to have the last word or will he continue to respond with insults in the hopes that no one notices that he is in fact attempting to have the last word by insulting me until I give up.

/waits patiently..........

squod · 28-09-2009 1:56pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Presumably that means that Cyprus 'has the final say'? Do we live in a Cypriot-dominated EU?

amused,
Scofflaw

By this you are saying Cyprus shouldn't have a say? Please clarify.

Sam Vimes · 28-09-2009 1:58pm

squod wrote: »

By this you are saying Cyprus shouldn't have a say? Please clarify.

No he's not not saying they shouldn't have a say. Rumour implied that Scofflaw's post meant that France and Germany have the "final say", that what they say goes. Scofflaw is pointing out that in this instance every country has a veto and it would be just as valid to say that "Cyprus has the final say" or indeed "Ireland has the final say"

squod · 28-09-2009 2:03pm

The fellow is perfectly capable of defending himself. Unless you two are the same person.

jimmyendless · 28-09-2009 2:06pm

eightyfish wrote: »

(sorry for double post)

Just searched for this article. First hits are The Traditional Values Coalition, a far-right catholic organisation who oppose Obama's plan for universal healthcare and say

A lot of other homophobic pro-life anti-liberal American Christian groups follow. Interesting that this article is discussed by these groups and nationalist anti-liberal right-wing republicans also.

Sorry this is not completely related but I don't like how pro-life people always seems to be bunched in with homophobic anti-liberal Christian groups. It is like relating Coir to normal people who happen to be voting No.

Sam Vimes · 28-09-2009 2:10pm

squod wrote: »

The fellow is perfectly capable of defending himself. Unless you two are the same person.

Oh crap I forgot to log into my Scofflaw account :eek:

Does my post correctly convey your meaning Scofflaw?

/logs into Scofflaw account

marco_polo · 28-09-2009 2:12pm

rumour wrote: »

Lol, rather like the green party. Is Cyprus (part of it) not part of Greece? Anyway we will need further treaties to cope with the arrival of other newcomers and no doubt this whole debacle will start all over again.

The northern part of Cyprus is Turkish occupied.

Scofflaw · 28-09-2009 2:20pm

squod wrote: »

By this you are saying Cyprus shouldn't have a say? Please clarify.

No, I'm saying that Cyprus has the final say, as long as they are opposed to Turkish entry. From what part of that would you take the idea that I don't think they should?

cordially,
Scofflaw

squod · 28-09-2009 2:28pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Presumably that means that Cyprus 'has the final say'? Do we live in a Cypriot-dominated EU?

The part where you said this. No we don't live in a Cypriot-dominated EU.
We live in a democracy that gives countries like Cyprus certain democratic rights.

You cool with that?

rumour · 28-09-2009 2:32pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

/waits patiently..........

Scofflaw · 28-09-2009 2:33pm

squod wrote: »

The part where you said this. No we don't live in a Cypriot-dominated EU.
We live in a democracy that gives countries like Cyprus certain democratic rights.

You cool with that?

squod, why do I get the feeling that I'm being baited here? And why do you believe that I'll necessarily put up with it?

moderately,
Scofflaw

squod · 28-09-2009 2:35pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

squod, why do I get the feeling that I'm being baited here? And why do you believe that I'll necessarily put up with it?

moderately,
Scofflaw

You made the comment. 'Put up with' what exactly?

Sam Vimes · 28-09-2009 2:35pm

rumour wrote: »

Still waiting for that last word you promised me.......

oscarBravo · 28-09-2009 2:38pm

squod wrote: »

You made the comment. 'Put up with' what exactly?

And you creatively misinterpreted it. Stop baiting.

Scofflaw · 28-09-2009 2:42pm

squod wrote: »

You made the comment. 'Put up with' what exactly?

Well, let's review the entire 'conversation'.

1. I pointed out that Sarkozy and Merkel are opposed to Turkish accession, and that therefore there is no hope of Turkey getting into the EU.

2. rumour claimed this meant I'd said that the EU was dominated by France and Germany.

3. I pointed out that Cyprus also opposed Turkish accession, that equally meant that Turkey wouldn't be able to accede to the EU.

4. To point out the falseness of rumour's claim, I added the rhetorical question "do we live in a Cyprus-dominated EU?". Clearly we don't, so clearly the ability to block Turkish entry does not equal dominance of the EU, as rumour claimed.

5. You're now on some drawn-out effort to pretend that I'm opposed to Cyprus' opposition to Turkey, or right to oppose Turkish accession - I'm not sure exactly which.

Since point 5 doesn't even follow from point 4 to the extent that point 2 follows from point 1, I'm forced to assume that all you're actually trying to do is either (a) annoy me, (b) derail the thread, or (c) both.

Are we clear now?

regards,
Scofflaw

squod · 28-09-2009 2:49pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, let's review the entire 'conversation'.

1. I pointed out that Sarkozy and Merkel are opposed to Turkish accession, and that therefore there is no hope of Turkey getting into the EU.

2. rumour claimed this meant I'd said that the EU was dominated by France and Germany.

3. I pointed out that Cyprus also opposed Turkish accession, that equally meant that Turkey wouldn't be able to accede to the EU.

4. To point out the falseness of rumour's claim, I added the rhetorical question "do we live in a Cyprus-dominated EU?". Clearly we don't, so clearly the ability to block Turkish entry does not equal dominance of the EU, as rumour claimed.

5. You're now on some drawn-out effort to pretend that I'm opposed to Cyprus' opposition to Turkey, or right to oppose Turkish accession - I'm not sure exactly which.

Since point 5 doesn't even follow from point 4 to the extent that point 2 follows from point 1, I'm forced to assume that all you're actually trying to do is either (a) annoy me, (b) derail the thread, or (c) both.

Are we clear now?

regards,
Scofflaw

All I asked for was an explanation, I don't think it was too much to ask.
Thank you for providing the explanation.

rumour · 28-09-2009 3:08pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

2. rumour claimed this meant I'd said that the EU was dominated by France and Germany.

4. To point out the falseness of rumour's claim, I added the rhetorical question "do we live in a Cyprus-dominated EU?". Clearly we don't, so clearly the ability to block Turkish entry does not equal dominance of the EU, as rumour claimed.

regards,
Scofflaw

Wow hold on for a second, I can completely understand an element of frustration and I will admit at taking a small degree of pleasure in seeing an opening in your normally sound arguments, however I did not write 'the EU was dominated by France or Germany' here is what I wrote.

[HTML]Well at least we agree on some points. Merkel(Germany) and Sarkozy(France) have the final say with or without Lisbon. [/HTML]

I did leave it knowingly open ended on this particular subject to watch the fundamentalists jump which they invariably did with the notable exception of your good self, however to translate that into 'the EU was dominated by France or Germany' is a bit of an extension by any standards.

Scofflaw · 28-09-2009 3:11pm

rumour wrote: »

Wow hold on for a second, I can completely understand an element of frustration and I will admit at taking a small degree of pleasure in seeing an opening in your normally sound arguments, however I did not write 'the EU was dominated by France or Germany' here is what I wrote.

[HTML]Well at least we agree on some points. Merkel(Germany) and Sarkozy(France) have the final say with or without Lisbon. [/HTML]

I did leave it knowingly open ended on this particular subject to watch the fundamentalists jump which they invariably did with the notable exception of your good self, however to translate that into 'the EU was dominated by France or Germany' is a bit of an extension by any standards.

Fair point - it wouldn't have been an issue for me (which is why I didn't comment on it in the first place!) if it hadn't segued into squod's little bit of baiting. It was more what it had become (not entirely innocently on your part) than what it was...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sam Vimes · 28-09-2009 3:12pm

rumour wrote: »

however to translate that into 'the EU was dominated by France or Germany' is a bit of an extension by any standards.

As is translating "nor would there be any point in doing so, since both Sarkozy and Merkel are opposed to accession. " to "Merkel(Germany) and Sarkozy(France) have the final say with or without Lisbon". They don't and that's not what he said

squod · 28-09-2009 3:54pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Fair point - it wouldn't have been an issue for me (which is why I didn't comment on it in the first place!) if it hadn't segued into squod's little bit of baiting. It was more what it had become (not entirely innocently on your part) than what it was...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Look you can not keep blaming me because of what you said. The people who accused me of baiting were, as I already pointed out, incorrect to do so.

Scofflaw · 28-09-2009 4:12pm

squod wrote: »

Look you can not keep blaming me because of what you said. The people who accused me of baiting were, as I already pointed out, incorrect to do so.

Shrug. What you were on about had nothing to do with what I said. About the best interpretation that could be put on it is that you had no idea what it was I had said.

Either way, that's quite enough derailing the thread.

regards,
Scofflaw

thebman · 28-09-2009 4:33pm

lol so i was browsing this forum for a laugh the other night (irish-nationalism.net).

Came across this crazy thread about coir and gay rights:
http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12264

Or this crazy stickied thread:
http://irish-nationalism.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4378

rumour · 28-09-2009 5:40pm

Sam Vimes wrote: »

As is translating "nor would there be any point in doing so, since both Sarkozy and Merkel are opposed to accession. " to "Merkel(Germany) and Sarkozy(France) have the final say with or without Lisbon". They don't and that's not what he said

Persistent, I'll give you that but you still don't get it.

Sam Vimes · 28-09-2009 5:41pm

rumour wrote: »

Persistent, I'll give you that but you still don't get it.

Still waiting on that last word you promised me

trdublin · 28-09-2009 5:48pm

Hello everyone,

First of all, the video which is posted here is not in Turkish. And my guess is that it was not recorded in Turkey as well. It is obvious that the 'No' side is manipulating the Turkey's accession case for the internal affairs, which is understandable from the politics point of view.

In my opinion it would be better to remember some moments in the history such as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Ottoman_aid And have a look at the 'day of the photo' at Pix.ie on 13th May. http://pix.ie/philokane/976090

And then feel free to say no to Turkey, or say no to Lisbon Treaty, but with friendly and non-racist words. What do you think?

trdublin · 29-09-2009 10:34am

And another note from the history:

"The Treaty of Lausanne, signed in 1923 between the allied powers and the Turks in the aftermath of World War I, still prevails on the Turkish agenda. While on the one hand, some celebrate this treaty, arguing that it Marks Turkish independence from the invading powers, others are critical about it as so much was given away, like Cyprus, the Aegean islands, Mosul, etc. Yahya Kemal Beyatli (b. 1958), a famous Turkish poet and a former ambassador, had an interesting memory from the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, in which he participated as a reporter. He recounts that while all the plenipotentiaries of the allied powers (The British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania, and the Serb- Croat-Slovene State) voted in unison in opposition to Turkey, the representative from Ireland was an exception; in each vote, he raised his hand in favor of Turkey’s interests. Beyatli noticed this unusual person, and could not help asking him the reason. “I am obliged to do it. Not only I, but are all Irish men and women,” said the Irish representative. “When we suffered from famine and disease, your Ottoman ancestors shipped loads of food and monetary donations. We have never forgotten the friendly hand extended to us in our difficult times. Your nation deserves to be supported on every occasion.”

turkishspeed · 29-09-2009 7:16pm

if turkey needs europe tht mens europe needs turkey more than turkey needs europe eu could have cancel turkey joining eu bit they can never refuse turkey if they refuse turkey europe has fear that turkey make a union with asian countries where petrol and money is eveybody afraid turkey to join eu but they dont know how strong and how young population in turkey and of the day turkey will join eu but we turkish ppl dont want to join eu because we are not europian we dont live the way europe lives our religion different turkey is 3 biggest economy groving country in the world so what i suggest you all think 2 times more about turkey europe pays billion dollars to turkey just to pass from europe to asia and i saw a sign about lisbon in cork about hello lisbon hello turkey no way that is insulting and myself and myy friends we r taking a case about this sign million irish people coming to turkey for holiday if turkish people write dont come to turkey for holidat i wonder will irish ppl like this sign???!!!

LISBON TREATY PANIC IN TURKEY - Vote NO!

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