Dissent in Pittsburgh

Overheal

This was not a candlelight vigil. Quit turning it into something it was not.

What I meant was the Cops did not treat it like a protest because the protesters/rioters did not go through the proper channels and there had already been property damage. It would have been farcical to expect the cops to leave them alone to do hell knows what if they had been left to their own devices.

Besides, on the big picture here, do you really suspect foul play? After letting the Tea Party Express roll through DC it would seem really odd of the current government to bash up some Hippies.

Resurgam

This is why I would never EVER join a protest/demonstration like these.
I just found this video that has the cops disguised as anarchists infiltrating the groups of protesters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrJ7aU-n1L8


Stuff like this has been documented numerous times over the last several years in the U.S. A lot of times these infiltrators are so blatantly obvious because of the way they are built and groom themselves that they are cops.
But I have read accounts where law enforcement agents have gone undercover to provoke scenarios to entrap people. This story was in the media a while back. (its transcribed from where I originally found it on a blog because there is a dead link now at the philly paper's site).

By JULIE SHAW
Philadelphia Daily News

shawj@phillynews.com 215-854-2592
A Municipal Court judge yesterday granted a defense motion to compel the identities of two police officers working as confidential informants in a bizarre case involving the Ku Klux Klan, anti-racist protesters, police and FBI.

Defense attorneys Paul J. Hetznecker and Lawrence Krasner contend that their clients - three anti-racist protesters facing trial on misdemeanor vandalism, harassment and related charges - may have been set up by law enforcement, possibly acting as agents provocateur.

The case stems from July 23, 2007, when word spread that there was supposed to be a noon KKK rally in LOVE Park, 15th Street and John F. Kennedy Boulevard, in Center City.

It turned out to be the "Klan rally that never was," Krasner said in court yesterday before Judge Marsha Neifield.

While anti-racist protesters showed up, the only "neo-Nazis" who appeared were two white men with short haircuts who acted as if they were white supremacists, according to a witness. It was revealed yesterday that the two men were undercover police officers.

Defense attorneys also noted in court yesterday that as far as they could tell, there never was a permit applied for by the KKK or one issued by the city for a KKK rally that day. The attorneys also pointed out through questioning of law-enforcement members that none of them could produce evidence of a KKK flier said to have advertised the rally.

On the "rally" day, witness Sheila Maddali, a law-school student, testified for the defense yesterday that she saw the two men - later determined to be the undercover cops - and thought they were KKK members. She heard one of the anti-racist protesters say to them, "You just want to lynch black people?"

A man thought to be a Klan member then said, "We lynch whoever we want," she said.

The two undercover cops then left the park and got into a black Ford Explorer parked on Arch Street near Broad, as some of the anti-racist protesters followed.

Sitting in the front of the Ford were Police Detective Sean Brennan and FBI Special Agent Stephen Powell.

Authorities have previously said that four anti-racist protesters then began kicking the SUV. One protester allegedly threw a set of pliers at the back window.

Three of those four protesters - Jared Schultz and Jason Robbins, both 29, and Thomas Keenan, 23 - still face trial on eight misdemeanor charges. They are members of the Anti-Racist Action group.

Brennan and Powell, both members of the Philadelphia Joint Terrorism Task Force, were yesterday called as prosecution witnesses by Assistant District Attorney Jack O'Neill.

Brennan testified that he had learned of the supposed KKK rally days before. He believed he saw it advertised on a flier. He then told Powell about it that day.

On the rally day, Brennan said he drove his Ford Explorer to the rally with Powell to observe it.

He said he stopped near LOVE Park and saw the two undercover officers, then called one of them to find out what they were doing. Shortly afterward, that officer called him, saying there was "some sort of confrontation" in the park. Brennan told the officer to meet him at Broad and Arch.

Under cross-examination by the defense attorneys, Brennan agreed that in police paperwork on the arrests of the anti-racist protesters he and another detective intentionally left out that the two confidential informants were in the park and in the Ford.

"It was left out for [their] safety," Brennan said.

Powell, who testified before Brennan, differed on some details. He said he only learned of the rally about half an hour before it was scheduled to occur, and said he, not Powell, was the one on the phone with one of the undercover officers.

He said he and Powell had told the two undercover officers to get in the Ford at Arch and Broad out of concern for their safety.

Lt. John McConnell, of the District Attorney's Narcotics Division, testified that he was the person who had directed the two undercover officers to go to the KKK rally that day. He wanted them to see if any member of the local Keystone State Skinheads group attended the rally.

The two officers, he said, were undercover narcotics officers.

Under cross-examination by Hetznecker, McConnell agreed that this wasn't the first time undercover narcotics officers have been used in this city for surveillance purposes at rallies.

In making her decision, Judge Neifield said she was "extremely mindful of the safety" of police officers, but also found it "troubling" that detectives in the matter had left out in police paperwork the fact that the two confidential informants were at the park and in the SUV.

She said she also understood defense attorneys' concerns in the case and granted their motion to compel authorities to divulge the identities of the undercover agents so they could further learn why they were at the park.

Resurgam

What's more disturbing about members of extremist groups turning out to be government agents is this: Many of the domestic groups that are "hate groups" or "extremist militias" that the media and government have hyped up are not just infiltrated by federal agents, they are actually RUN by the government intelligence and security agencies. I assume the logic in creating these groups is to have the angry and frustrated on the fringes of both sides of the political spectrum channeled into an outlet that's under control. IMO, that's an immoral strategy that sews chaos where they instigate conflict with the ends justifying the means.


Even fifty years ago there was a joke down South that for every three Klansmen, there would be some guy who would show up out of no where who didn't fit in while the other two were illiterate rednecks who were too dumb to know any better.

LostinKildare

Overheal wrote: »

This was not a candlelight vigil. Quit turning it into something it was not.

Did I? No I did not. On the contrary, I said

LostinKildare wrote: »

They didn't have a permit, some people committed property crimes, by nighttime it was a mini-riot, not a planned political protest

No, my mention of candlelight vigils was as an example of legitimate nighttime planned political protest, in response to your apparent(?) view that demonstrations in general should not take place at night.

Overheal wrote: »

What I meant was the Cops did not treat it like a protest because the protesters/rioters did not go through the proper channels and there had already been property damage. It would have been farcical to expect the cops to leave them alone to do hell knows what if they had been left to their own devices.

Okay

Overheal wrote: »

Besides, on the big picture here, do you really suspect foul play? After letting the Tea Party Express roll through DC it would seem really odd of the current government to bash up some Hippies.

Not sure what you mean by “foul play.” I think players on both sides acted predictably – though less badly than at previous years’ economic summits.

It’s not useful to compare police tactics at Pittsburgh with the 9/12 Beckfest. The 9/12 was a typical medium-sized Wash DC demo with little trouble expected. No need to bring out the big guns. The G-20 by contrast is an international summit and like other antiglobalization/anticapitalist protests (like IMF/World Bank) has a history of violent clashes. It was designated a “national security event” and the Secret Service were in charge of security. Thus the special military equipment (Hummers, LRAD, helicopters, etc) and the mystery men in camouflage, and the huge overwhelming force of riot cops, which as usual were viewed as menacing and provocative by the protesters.

Like some of the other posters I’m disturbed by what appeared to be a military presence on the streets of a US city to help put down political protest. The official statement confirmed that those camo-clad guys in the video were part of the security detail, but was vague about who they actually were: Cops in camo? National Guard? National Guard just returned from Iraq? Mercenaries (er, private contractors) from oh, I don’t know, Blackwater? It’s not nice to think about. If they were indeed Pennsylvania cops I wonder what genius thought it would be a good idea for them to be wearing what appear to be military fatigues at volatile event like this. Appearances are critical.

Speaking of appearances, see this creepy little video that's making the rounds. It appears to show riot cops forcing a handcuffed, kneeling prisoner to pose for a trophy photo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3FP3blL3mE

Overheal

How is a vigil a protest?

And as NTM points out, they werent mystery men.

Manic Moran

The official statement confirmed that those camo-clad guys in the video were part of the security detail, but was vague about who they actually were: Cops in camo? National Guard? National Guard just returned from Iraq?

Out of interest, why should National Guard vs National Guard Just Returned From Iraq be a difference? How about National Guard Just Returned from Afghanistan or National Guard Just Returned From Kosovo? How soon is 'Just', bearing in mind most Guardsmen have gone overseas at least once by now?

If they were indeed Pennsylvania cops

See my post several above identifying PA State Troopers wearing BDUs.

I wonder what genius thought it would be a good idea for them to be wearing what appear to be military fatigues at volatile event like this. Appearances are critical.

Probably the people who have to decide whether or not the uniforms need to be cheap, rugged and practical at a volatile event like that. Patrol uniforms would be somewhat inappropriate, and if camo is required for some of their 'utility' duties, it makes more sense than having two types of heavy-duty uniforms.

NTM

RedPlanet

They didn't have a permit

Correct me if i am mistaken but i thought there was some sort of right to "assemble"? Do you really need a permit to protest?
Jeez if that's true i don't know how anyone could ever refer to the US as a "free country".

Manic Moran

RedPlanet wrote: »

Correct me if i am mistaken but i thought there was some sort of right to "assemble"? Do you really need a permit to protest?

Nobody is denying their right to assemble. The system simply allows both the protestors to assemble and protest whilst also not denying other persons not involved in the protests their rights to peacably go about their business without disturbance.

NTM

Overheal

Is Ireland a free country Red Planet?

The discussions im having in Politics root seem to differ. People can even be quoted as saying in those discussions that they are worried about protesting because they fear it will just lead to the dail passing laws against it.

How dare you make such a baseless accusation exactly?

Correct me if i am mistaken but i thought there was some sort of right to "assemble"? Do you really need a permit to protest?
Jeez if that's true i don't know how anyone could ever refer to the US as a "free country".

RedPlanet

Overheal wrote: »

Is Ireland a free country Red Planet?

But Ireland doesn't go around advocating itself as a "free country" or "leader of the free world". :rolleyes:
Ireland doesn't really export it's political doctrines / ideology.

RedPlanet

But what i'm trying to figure out OverHeal, is: are you acknowleding and defending the concept of requiring a Permit to protest politically?
And if so, does that square with being a "free country"?

Overheal

As NTM's post above.

You have the right to freedom of Religion. You don't have the right to harass someone else about their religious and spiritual beliefs. Even though evangelicals have a religious belief in converting so called non-believers. I'd just as soon tell one No Thank you but I mean if they wouldn't leave me alone I'd be tempted to file charges.

Oh goodness, we must be fascist.

RedPlanet

Overheal wrote: »

As NTM's post above.

You have the right to freedom of Religion. You don't have the right to harass someone else about their religious and spiritual beliefs.

Are you sure about that?

Overheal

Then I guess we are a free country after all

/tears down messiah poster.

RedPlanet

Overheal wrote: »

Then I guess we are a free country after all

/tears down messiah poster.

I think what it really means is that if the protesting comes from Christains and the Right, it's protected speech. But if it comes from anything "Leftie", it requires a permit. Free Country :rolleyes:

Overheal

RedPlanet wrote: »

I think what it really means is that if the protesting comes from Christains and the Right, it's protected speech. But if it comes from anything "Leftie", it requires a permit. Free Country :rolleyes:

Wtf are you talking about?

The Tea Party express required permits also. It got them. Police knew ahead of time, were prepared ahead of time, and look ma: no teargas.

Liberal mindset is "Why do I need a permit? This is a FREE country" and then - teargas happens.

JohnMc1

My God I thought this thread was done. Some people need to realize that alot of our Freedoms are priviledges and not rights. The Freedom of Speech is priviledge.

Pete M.

No surprise at all to see police on the streets like this in USA really.

Reckon our own riot police when we're in the USE will be similarily equiped, stormtrooper chique.

Lisbon will certainly see exemptions, for wearing hi-vis vests ala the irish soldier in the photo at the Anti Bush protests in Shannon a few years ago, being introduced lol.

Think I'm in the foreground of one of those snaps with me daughter.

Remember the riot police running down the road, roasted in the gear, trying to chase the 'black block'.

Also while standing in front of them during a photo op, one of them tapped me on the shoulder, turned out to be a lad I went to school with.
It was all very civilised really, stood there chattin for a bit while a few senior gardai worked the crowd.

Met him again while there were guards, soldiers and ordinary folk swarming around the armoured vehicle pictured.

But that's where we're headed.

And Johnmc1, USA has it's problems. Sure it's a great place and bless you for the patriotism (wonder what european kids will have to do their daily pledge), but you have to recognise that it is far from perfect, as is Ireland and Europe (and getting worse.... Guess how I'm voting....)


The alleged use of the sonic cannon is really scary.

As for the right to free speech and assembly, they may be privileges, but they're in your Constitution aren't they? Isn't that what's important?

As for Brian Cowen being at the G20, oh man, tis far from the G20 we were reared.

Betcha none of them could sink a few pints like our Brian though.
He's definitely be there if it was a beer drinking G 20...

JohnMc1

Pete M. wrote: »

And Johnmc1, USA has it's problems. Sure it's a great place and bless you for the patriotism (wonder what european kids will have to do their daily pledge), but you have to recognise that it is far from perfect, as is Ireland and Europe (and getting worse.... Guess how I'm voting....)

Thanks Pete. Believe me I realize that both Countries are great and have their problems. And sadly will get alot worse before they get any better.

As for the right to free speech and assembly, they may be privileges, but they're in your Constitution aren't they? Isn't that what's important?

They may be in the Constitution but its not 100% guarantee. Its in the law that you need a permit to hold these protests and rallies. So some of the posters crying that the Police were shutting it down because they were a "leftist" or "liberal" protest doesn't hold water. Plus most of those guys had their faces covered so you can bet your last dollar or euro that some of them were looking to cause trouble.

As for Brian Cowen being at the G20, oh man, tis far from the G20 we were reared.

Yeah for some reason I thought he was at the G20 as well. I know Ireland has come along but I guess not much yet.

Betcha none of them could sink a few pints like our Brian though.
He's definitely be there if it was a beer drinking G 20...

LOL.

Overheal

The alleged use of the sonic cannon is really scary.

Oh my no, Thats quite real as I learned a couple days ago.

Grow a pair though. Not nearly as alarming as riot shotguns or tasers.

http://gizmodo.com/5369190/lrad-sound-cannon-used-on-pittsburgh-g20-protesters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMyY3_dmrM

I guess military tech always finds its way home. Pittsburgh city officials believe their police department's use of a Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) at last week's G20 protests was "the first time the sound cannon had been used publicly."

Police used the device to emit a painful shrill that forced demonstrators to cover their ears and withdraw while police threw tear gas and stun grenades. "Other law enforcement agencies will be watching to see how it was used," Pittsburgh's police bureau chief told the NY Times. "It served its purpose well."

Whether or not you think the protesters have a right to demonstrate or are anarchists without a permit to march, it's still pretty eye-opening to see tech like that used at home.

As a non-lethal weapon, sound canons have been mounted to vehicles by the U.S Army, installed on American warships to warn incoming vessels, defended private cruise ships against Somali pirates, and were at the ready (though not used) at the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York.

But this is the first time LRAD has been used against U.S civilians. According to reports, 20 people were arrested, but there were no serious injuries.

Also apparently used by Japanese Whale Fisheries to ward of Environmental Activist Pirates.

P_1

I don't normally post in this forum but I've always wondered why they hold these G20/G8 conferences in the middle of cities? They always seem to end up with the cities being thrashed, I know I wouldn't want to be in town if one of those conferences were being held.

Can they not just hold it on a ship or something?

Overheal

That would play into the hippy conspiracy theory that they are all NWO megalomaniacs.

LostinKildare

Overheal wrote: »

How is a vigil a protest?

Candlelight vigils are a long-established protest tactic used by activists all over the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEf0YQ8txEg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMOUYw8rixQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZztzkMhLqU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kllqln0Ji1A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNI-oOpwIWA

Overheal wrote: »

And as NTM points out, they werent mystery men.

Manic Moran wrote: »

See my post several above identifying PA State Troopers wearing BDUs.

Yes I saw your post in which you speculated that they were PA cops because one of them has a patch on his sleeve that looks like a PA state trooper patch. I can't make out the writing on that patch, and I note that that particular guy is wearing a different type/colour of fatigues than the others.

You might be right. If your guess is good enough for you, that's fine, but it's not good enough for me. I'd like the govt to identify them more specifically than as "law enforcement officers from a multi-agency tactical response team.”

Manic Moran wrote: »

Out of interest, why should National Guard vs National Guard Just Returned From Iraq be a difference? How about National Guard Just Returned from Afghanistan or National Guard Just Returned From Kosovo? How soon is 'Just', bearing in mind most Guardsmen have gone overseas at least once by now?

No thank you, I don't want to spin off into a pedantic back-and-forth on a nothing point. How recently someone returned or what theater they fought in isn't an important distinction to me. War combat troops – whether federal soldiers or "federalized" National Guard soldiers -- should not be deployed against US citizens on the streets of US cities, helping to put down political demonstrations.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Probably the people who have to decide whether or not the uniforms need to be cheap, rugged and practical at a volatile event like that. Patrol uniforms would be somewhat inappropriate, and if camo is required for some of their 'utility' duties, it makes more sense than having two types of heavy-duty uniforms.

Military-style camouflage is not an appropriate police uniform because it blurs the distinction between military and police identities and functions in the public mind. If they're police they should be wearing clearly identifiable police uniforms and not dressed as soldiers, and if they arrest people they should be loading them into clearly marked law enforcement vehicles, not unmarked cars. Camo-clad guys throwing political protestors into unmarked cars is something you'd expect to see in Chile or Iran, not the US.

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Some people need to realize that alot of our Freedoms are priviledges and not rights. The Freedom of Speech is priviledge.

It's not often that you hear an American say that a fundamental right that underpins democracy and is enshrined in the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution is not a right.

Aw, scratch that -- it's not often that you hear anyone say that a fundamental human right specified in Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is not a right.

Overheal

Nobody is denying anyone of their rights as we have tried to make pointedly apparent to you several times now.

pedantic back-and-forth on a nothing point.

why pinch the vigil nonsense then? This wasnt a vigil that got teargassed. show me the pittsburgh g20 candle vigil or leave it alone.

LostinKildare

Overheal wrote: »

why pinch the vigil nonsense then? This wasnt a vigil that got teargassed. show me the pittsburgh g20 candle vigil or leave it alone.

Jesus. YOU asked me

Overheal wrote: »

How is a vigil a protest?

and now you complain that I answered your question. I thought you wanted to know.

Manic Moran

Some people need to realize that alot of our Freedoms are priviledges and not rights. The Freedom of Speech is priviledge.

!?

Driving is a privilige. Speech is a right. Not unlimited, but a right.

d I note that that particular guy is wearing a different type/colour of fatigues than the others.

The two lads in Multicam are Pittsburgh DPS. That is beyond doubt.

whether federal soldiers or "federalized" National Guard soldiers -- should not be deployed against US citizens on the streets of US cities, helping to put down political demonstrations.

Neither is legal except in a declared state of emergency. Title-32 Guardsmen are at the disposal of the Governor as a state agency to use as he or she sees fit.

Military-style camouflage is not an appropriate police uniform because it blurs the distinction between military and police identities and functions in the public mind.

Only if you're not used to it. PA State Police have had BDUs in the inventory for years.



NTM

Nodin

JohnMc1 wrote: »

My God I thought this thread was done.(......)

...but seeing as its still with us, you might be good enough to get back to me on some questions I raised earlier....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62276337&postcount=34

dave2pvd

Amazes me how some people see a clip on the news and leap to the conclusion that the US is becoming a police state. Any idea how large and diverse the country is? What about the fact that there is not a single police force?

Anyway, besides that, it would appear that the most stunning piece of information this thread has uncovered is contained in Resurgam's post. You all missed it:

Resurgam wrote: »

I drove through Oakland late last Saturday night after getting my chocolate waffles and grits from Waffle House to survey the damage.

There's a Waffle House in Oakland???

This could only mean one thing: the South is about to rise again :eek:

Maybe the police state is not so far away, afterall

Resurgam

There's a Waffle House in Oakland???

This could only mean one thing: the South is about to rise again

Naww, I wish it was that close. My friend and I drive to the Waffle House 20 miles away in Washington, PA all the time. They are indeed on the furthest Northern frontier of Waffle House locations.

Speaking of the South, I can't imagine riots like the G-20 ones in Pittsburgh or London. That's because if the SHTF down there, the guns will come out and property damage is the least of one's concerns. Like in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1957 when they had paratroopers from the 101st Airborne Division to deal with the mobs and were whacking people with rifle butts.

dave2pvd

Resurgam wrote: »

Naww, I wish it was that close. My friend and I drive to the Waffle House 20 miles away in Washington, PA all the time. They are indeed on the furthest Northern frontier of Waffle House locations.

Speaking of the South, I can't imagine riots like the G-20 ones in Pittsburgh or London. That's because if the SHTF down there, the guns will come out and property damage is the least of one's concerns. Like in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1957 when they had paratroopers from the 101st Airborne Division to deal with the mobs and were whacking people with rifle butts.

You can't imagine riots in the South? I can help fill you in, if you'd like.

Sorry to hear your nearest WH is 20 miles away. There is a WH at every interstate exit in these here parts I need to study the menu next time. I don't recall chocolate being a waffle option. Although, it ought to be!

Oh, in case you are not aware, click on this guy: