What is the status of Metro North?

strassenwolf

Metrobest wrote: »

Two ways.

First, because of the onerous planning requirements (railway order), bidders had to spend 10-15 million euro instead of the usual 5. The ones that lost out now feel sore that they had to spend so much money on a bid. They feel that Irish planning requirements for metro projects are excessively bureaucratic. Would you disagree?

(Would you be kind enough to back up your statement about "the usual 5"?)

I don't entirely disagree with you.

I'm sure the losing bidders do feel sore. In this process, three out of the four bidders are going to end up feeling sore anyway.

Two of these bidders ended up feeling sore long before ABP got involved. So, while you may be right about the process being excessively bureaucratic, directing your beef at ABP seems to be picking on the wrong target.

What about the RPA? Or the Department of Transport?

Now, because a quango has decided hold a costly hearing into the project, a decision taken without explanation to the public or to the PPP community, the final two bidders face a delay of one year.

Never did the phrase 'time is money' have more resonance. Now is the time for the RPA to lock in savings in a deflationary environment. But because of the black box that is An Board Pleneala, nobody has the foggiest idea of when or how a decision will be made on this complex project.

I think that this is hardly fair.

A project of this nature needs to have some kind of public scrutiny. Previously this phase was overseen by some wet-behind-the-ears chappie from the law library, now it's done by ABP.

It was not ABP that decided that this was to be the way: the government did.

Now, I believe ABP could decide to hold the whole thing behind closed doors, but there would inevitably be an outcry given the nature of the project. In this case, public scrutiny is necessary.

Bureaucratic it all may be, but ABP should not be the target of your beef.

crocro

What is ABPs function in this process? Are they deciding if the project is compliant with government planning guidelines? Can they impose conditions on the project to make it more compliant?

Can they just say that the project would 'be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development' of the city as they say whenever they reject an application for a domestic extension?

imme

Metrobest wrote: »

I have not heard any news on metro north in some months? I think An Board Pleaneala are delaying the thing for no reason but to keep itself in a job. Should An Bord Pleanala be snipped in the next budget?

As Joan Burton points out, Metro north will cost only 200million euro per year and will generate 25,000 jobs at a time when ireland needs to have skilled people in employment, not the dole.

Joan Burton should be Ireland's next tanaiste.

http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=1087

An Bord Pleanala are final arbiters, you can't do away with them. Every decision would end up in the Supreme Court then.

Victor

It can still end up in the courts, but only on points of law, not on planning grounds.

---

ABP have written to the RPA and asked them to publish the additional information.

See http://www.dublinmetronorth.ie/

Metrobest

Rather than actually make a decision on metro north, An Board Pleaneala have decided to continue with the fiasco that is it's "oral hearing" into the project.

Every local whingebag, crackpot and NIMBY gets a chance to have his day in court. Just look at the schedule for the hearing here:

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20RO%20Oral%20Hearing%20Evidence/9%20Nov%204873%20ABP%20Oral%20Hearing%20Re-Opening.pdf

A full five days will be devoted to hearing submissions from Theatres and Hospitals. Dublin Airport gets one hour.

How An Board Pleaneala plans to treat all this "evidence" is anybody's guess, but the one certainty is that taxpayers are getting shafted as they have have to fund this unneccessary hearing and thousands of people are losing out on the badly-needed jobs metro north's construction will create, at a time when significant savings could have been locked in.

When willl people start to realize that ABP is a malign influence on Ireland's ambitions to restore its booming economy?

Victor

Can I ask for a slight change?

How about comments on the actual design proposed. Do people think they have the details right/wrong? If they are putting in two escalators should there be three (to allow for peak flows and breakdowns)? Should entrances have canopies to keep out the rain. Are 90m platforms the right way to go?

dowlingm

My experience in Toronto lead me to think that escalators are bad in a transit context. I'd rather see stairs and high capacity redundant elevators.

The stairs don't run the wrong way at peak because some lazy git earning $30/hour didn't turn a key, and escalators do f**k all for certain mobility limited groups and not much for others (not to mention normally "able" folk with strollers or suitcases), plus the ones here all seem to be hard to keep operational and waste electricity off peak.

Canopies are a good opportunity to add a bit of pizazz to the system so I'm for them. Keeping water out of the system isn't a bad idea either given the recent rains.

The length - well we have 500ft platforms here (6 car trains with an option to fit a short 7th after automation) but on one line they built to 4 cars and roughed in an extension if it was deemed necessary.

You could rough in 135m and finish the platform to 90, but you'd have to be sure your exits and escalators are sufficient for the ultimate build out - you don't want to be moving utilities and stuff to finagle in an extra couple of exits down the road.

Aard

The Copenhagen-metro underground-stations have no escalators - just stairs and two elevators for the mobility-impaired, prams, and bicycles. It seemed to work OK.


If escalators were used in the Dublin metro, I'd rather have them moving in the direction away from the platform, in order to get people out of the station quicker than people can get in.

Metrobest

Victor wrote: »

Can I ask for a slight change?

How about comments on the actual design proposed. Do people think they have the details right/wrong? If they are putting in two escalators should there be three (to allow for peak flows and breakdowns)? Should entrances have canopies to keep out the rain. Are 90m platforms the right way to go?

You're the moderator - always warning others to stay on topic. How rude that you now go and hijack my thread.

Metrobest

Aard wrote: »

The Copenhagen-metro underground-stations have no escalators - just stairs and two elevators for the mobility-impaired, prams, and bicycles. It seemed to work OK.


If escalators were used in the Dublin metro, I'd rather have them moving in the direction away from the platform, in order to get people out of the station quicker than people can get in.

Copenhagen's metro stations have two sets of escalator in each direction, and ONE elevator per station. My understanding is that Metro North, with two lifts in every station, will be the first in the world to have this feature. The configuration of lifts and elevators depends on the depth of the station. Some of the new stations in Barcelona's Line 9 will have six sets of lifts, no escalators, and an emergency-only set of stairs.

markpb

Maybe I'm being cynical but it feels like the campaign against the metro has already begun by the Irish Times. Lots of talk of restricting cars but none of the advantages to tens of thousands of commuters.

Also, isn't it a bit ridiculous that the utilities which were moved during the rejuvenation of O'Connell St will take another 60 weeks and likewise in Ballymun will take 50 weeks. Was there no preventative work that could have been done during either of those projects?

IrishTimes wrote:

Private cars must be banned from using Westmoreland Street to cross Dublin city centre during the construction of Metro North, the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) has said.

Addressing the first day of the resumed An Bord Pleanála hearing on the metro, project director Rory O’Connor said that to facilitate construction works only public transport could use Westmoreland Street between Fleet Street and the quays.

This means cars could not pass through College Green and Westmoreland Street to access O’Connell Street and effectively reinstates the northbound “bus gate” on a full-time basis.

The hearing opened on April 1st but was adjourned on April 29th. An Bord Pleanála subsequently sought additional information from the RPA, presented yesterday. When the RPA originally gave evidence in relation to traffic management, Dublin City Council had intended to introduce the bus gate, which bans private cars from using College Green to cross the city, on a 24-hour basis. The council, against the advice of Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey, introduced the bus gate at morning and evening peak traffic times Monday to Friday only.

Mr O’Connor yesterday told the hearing that outside the limited hours of the bus gate, the Westmoreland Street private car ban and other traffic restrictions would be necessary. Other additional information supplied included the duration of work to divert utilities – underground electricity, gas and sewer infrastructure – before the five-year construction of the metro line can begin.

In O’Connell Street, this work would take a year and eight weeks, Mr O’Connor said. Pedestrian access to shops and businesses would be maintained. However, to allow vehicular access, the pavement, widened by the city council as part of the multimillion euro O’Connell Street improvement works, would have to be cut back in places to create a temporary traffic lane. Utilities diversion in the St Stephen’s Green area would take about six months. A similar timeframe is envisaged for Parnell Square, while, in Ballymun, utilities work is expected to take 50 weeks.

The delays caused by the seven-month suspension of the hearing are set to continue. The resumed hearing had been due to finish later this month. However, the RPA yesterday told An Bord Pleanála inspector Kevin Moore it had agreed with Dublin City Council, the Mater Hospital Campus Development Ltd and the Mater Private Hospital to provide a second entrance on Eccles Street to the Mater Metro stop.

The alteration must be subject to public consultation with six weeks allowed, Mr Moore said. This means the hearing will stretch into next year.

DWCommuter

markpb wrote: »

Also, isn't it a bit ridiculous that the utilities which were moved during the rejuvenation of O'Connell St will take another 60 weeks and likewise in Ballymun will take 50 weeks. Was there no preventative work that could have been done during either of those projects?

I made the very same point here years ago when O'Connell st and Ballymun were being refurbished. Yet another example of Government agencies not knowing/caring what the other is doing. Its also a classic example of mismanagement and the ongoing necessity for a proper DTA.

But all we do is upset and anger ourselves more. Im blue in the face with transport planning in this country. Ive lost all interest and hope that we can get anything done efficiently. Transport and the Irish political mindset just dont sit well together. I doubt they ever will and believe its due to the rural nature of our country. Our political dynasties are dominated by politicians with a rural mentality and a completely ineffective understanding of big city transport needs.

Jamie2k9

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/private-group-revives-plan-to-build-19bn-dublin-metro-service-29740692.html

Chris_5339762

If they claim they can do it for less than half the price the Government can I would say there is a certain manic craziness about them, like the GLUAS crowd over in Galway

Jamie2k9

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

If they claim they can do it for less than half the price the Government can I would say there is a certain manic craziness about them, like the GLUAS crowd over in Galway

The cost of workers, land, materials, less tunnels and even rolling stock etc will be well below the costs quoted in the boom of 2006/7 era.

L1011

The 26 months is the bit that seems delusional to me - costs will have dropped significantly. Are there actually any companies with money in this 'consortium'?

eejoynt

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/private-group-revives-plan-to-build-19bn-dublin-metro-service-29740692.html

Well if it says it in the independent it MUST be true.....wait until the oirish daily mail carries the story then it will be confirmed

Jamie2k9

eejoynt wrote: »

Well if it says it in the independent it MUST be true.....wait until the oirish daily mail carries the story then it will be confirmed

Yes the indo isn't the most crediable paper but they hardly completely made the story up.

http://www.metrodublin.ie/index.htm

dowlingm

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goingnowhere

No brainier who was behind this, the basic route has been kicked around many times before

Question really is how on earth this proposal could stack up Dart underground plus a kind of metro north for less than the price of of either on its own

Crayons at its very best and we know already the engineers ruled out any tunnel portal at Heuston in favour of much easier location of Inchicore for a whole stack of reasons

Aard

I think we can stop using the word consortium, and revert to one-man-band.

Victor

I imagine a big change in the costs is fewer stations.

GavMan

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/alternative-to-dublin-metro-a-fantasy-says-transport-body-1.1678139