Dwight Yorke on Keane Management [mod warning post #42]

The Hustler

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So, it only costs 12million to turn one of the worst teams in premiership history into a side that gains automatic promotion to the premiership. You'd think more Championship clubs would just spend the 12million - they make it back times over once they got to the premiership.

Yorke was on 16 grand a week

Stokes was on 14

The average wage in The Championship is 8k a week

Boggles

What Keane did taking Sunderland from the foot of the table to winning it is remarkable.

People who question that or say it was "easy" are being either idiotic or bitter.

Lemlin

Trilla wrote: »

Halford and Hysen didnt play that many games either afaik.

Keane didn't sign Hysen or rate him and Halford never played for Sunderland in the Championship. He was signed after promotion.

Boggles

The Hustler wrote: »

Yorke was on 16 grand a week

Stokes was on 14

The average wage in The Championship is 8k a week

I highlighted an important word for you. :rolleyes:

The Hustler

Boggles wrote: »

I highlighted an important word for you. :rolleyes:

Yes, and Sunderland could afford to spunk money left right and centre on astronomical wages and transfer fees by Championship standards.

Chequebook manager, and a poor one at that

Mitch Connor

The Hustler wrote: »

Yorke was on 16 grand a week

Stokes was on 14

The average wage in The Championship is 8k a week

So, you say that average thing like it means something? For every player earning 'way' over it , there will be young players and the like earning way under it.

Sunderland were terrible before Keane arrived - bottom of the championship without a win. He came in and they got promoted. Sure, he spent money to do so, you have to - but weren't a good number of the premiership players moved on that summer too, so money would have been brought in as a result of that.

Mitch Connor

The Hustler wrote: »

Yes, and Sunderland could afford to spunk money left right and centre on astronomical wages and transfer fees by Championship standards.

Chequebook manager, and a poor one at that

lol - astronomical transfer fees. lol.

not one transfer prior to gaining promotion of over 2million - going by your own list. LOL.

Lemlin

The Hustler wrote: »

Yorke was on 16 grand a week

Stokes was on 14

The average wage in The Championship is 8k a week

I'm sure every club has players on wages above the 8k. 8k is the "average" so teams have players above and below it. You've highlighted two Sunderland players above it.

I know of one player on 10k a week who can't get this game for his Championship club.

Also, so what if he paid high wages in the Championship and was successful? I'm sure Man United's, Arsenal's or Chelsea's wage bill is high but do you put it down to poor management by SAF, Wenger or Anncelotti?

Lemlin

The Hustler wrote: »

Yes, and Sunderland could afford to spunk money left right and centre on astronomical wages and transfer fees by Championship standards.

Chequebook manager, and a poor one at that

Where's the evidence of this? I've already dissected your list and knocked it down to 4 million spent when he arrived in with a further 2 to 3 million in January.

I'd expect most Championship clubs to have spent 7 million back then to be honest. Let's remember it was 2006 and money was alot easier to get.

Also, as highlighted, he sold players like Jon Stead to get some of the money back in.

That_Guy

Boggles wrote: »

What Keane did taking Sunderland from the foot of the table to winning it is remarkable.

People who question that or say it was "easy" are being either idiotic or bitter.

I'll admit that it was a remarkable achievement and one that Keane can be proud of.
It's not an easy league to win because if you're a regular watcher of the Championship you'll know that anyone can beat anyone in that division.

However not all teams have the luxury of splashing out 11 million pounds or so on transfers in the Championship so Keane's job became a lot easier.

When promoted his signing were questionable. Buying Championship standard players in a tougher division. He had the money there to buy some quality players but chose to look elsewhere.

So he quit when the going got tough and now he's doing a piss poor job at Ipswich and it shows in the table. I don't think another revelation is going to happen anytime soon and Ipswich have to let him go or they'll be staring into the abyss if it continues on like this.

event

Boggles wrote: »

What Keane did taking Sunderland from the foot of the table to winning it is remarkable.

People who question that or say it was "easy" are being either idiotic or bitter.

and people who refuse to hear a bad thing about him are blind and deluded

yeah, what he did was remarkable, did very well.
But he couldnt cut it at a higher level, he admitted this himself when he resigned.

Boggles

That_Guy wrote: »

When promoted his signing were questionable.

Which manager has signings that arn't?

Which managers havn't signed dross and are in more prestigous clubs and areas than Sunderland.

I watched bits of the game yesterday, 3 of Keanes signings were up there in contention for man of the match.

Lemlin

event wrote: »

and people who refuse to hear a bad thing about him are blind and deluded

yeah, what he did was remarkable, did very well.
But he couldnt cut it at a higher level, he admitted this himself when he resigned.

I'm willing to hear bad about him but I don't buy this bullsh!t that he bought the Championship. Keane came into a team that had been the worst in PL history, were sitting at the foot of the Championship without a win and spent 7 million to get them up. It was a remarkable achievement and, if anything, success came too quickly.

As I've said, he struggled in the top flight and paying high fees for players like Paul McShane was a problem. He did keep Sunderland up though and that has to be seen as another success, no matter how much he spent.

Walking out was a big error and I honestly think Sunderland would of went down had he stayed. He's still a young manager though and I do think he will improve.

As previously pointed out by others, look back at the careers of other top managers and you'll see Keane has started relatively well.

Lemlin

That_Guy wrote: »

I'll admit that it was a remarkable achievement and one that Keane can be proud of.
It's not an easy league to win because if you're a regular watcher of the Championship you'll know that anyone can beat anyone in that division.

However not all teams have the luxury of splashing out 11 million pounds or so on transfers in the Championship so Keane's job became a lot easier.

When promoted his signing were questionable. Buying Championship standard players in a tougher division. He had the money there to buy some quality players but chose to look elsewhere.

So he quit when the going got tough and now he's doing a piss poor job at Ipswich and it shows in the table. I don't think another revelation is going to happen anytime soon and Ipswich have to let him go or they'll be staring into the abyss if it continues on like this.

As pointed out numerous times above, he did not spend near 11 million pounds. He actually spent closer to half it.

Boggles

event wrote: »

and people who refuse to hear a bad thing about him are blind and deluded

As long as it is balanced I have no problem with it.

event wrote: »

yeah, what he did was remarkable, did very well.
But.....

This seems to be the general bitterness towards him, "yeah he did well, but......"

He is a 38 year old manager learning the ropes, people too quick to write him off, Ipswich are what 12 points off the top and only 1 point worse off than last season at this stage.

Knee Jerks!!!

Lemlin

Boggles wrote: »

As long as it is balanced I have no problem with it.



This seems to be the general bitterness towards him, "yeah he did well, but......"

He is a 38 year old manager learning the ropes, people too quick to write him off, Ipswich are what 12 points off the top and only 1 point worse off than last season at this stage.

Knee Jerks!!!

I couldn't agree more. People are mad to hold onto this "Keane bought the Championship" thing but it simply isn't true.

ntlbell

So the moral of the story is.

give any manager 6 mil and they can win the Championship even with 0 points from the first 4/5 games.

why hasn't someone came up with this idea before?

bizarre.

event

ntlbell wrote: »

So the moral of the story is.

give any manager 6 mil and they can win the Championship even with 0 points from the first 4/5 games.

why hasn't someone came up with this idea before?

bizarre.

well i dont know, maybe he's just been lucky
he thinks that might be the case

He said: "Every club and every challenge is different. You can't compare the way we are at the moment with Sunderland.

"It is chalk and cheese. When I got us up at Sunderland, maybe I got a bit of luck. Maybe I was just very, very lucky and I have been found out

SlickRic

you can say what you like about Roy Keane. say what you like about how far he will get in the management game. it's all speculation when it comes down to it.

but taking anything away from his achievement with Sunderland is nothing short of laughable.

Mr Alan

his achievements in getting Sunderland back to the PL were great.

personally i wouldn't try & take that away from him. he may not have spent a lot of money, but the team he had was good enough to run away with the Championship a couple of seasons before that iirc which the pro Keane people seem to be forgetting.

also, when he got to the PL, by anyones standards he spent huge money & failed.

so far imo, he has found wanting as a manager at the top level.

Quint

I sick of this "took them from the bottom of the championship" stuff like it's one of the most amazing turnarounds in the history of football. They had 3 points from 5 games, and were still one of the favourites to go up.
Incidently, 3 from 5 is a lot better than 4 from 5 which ipswich are on now. If he's such a fantastic manager Ipswich will surge up the table and win the championship.
And also, he took over the "worst team in premiership history". Yes, they were bad in the premiership, but the year before they strolled the championship. edit: Mr. Alan mentioned that
I remember when sunderland were doing well and there was a lot of talk about keane becoming the new united manager. Well I reckon there's a better change of a Rafa/Brian Kerr partnership in charge of Man-u.

Lemlin

Mr Alan wrote: »

his achievements in getting Sunderland back to the PL were great.

personally i wouldn't try & take that away from him. he may not have spent a lot of money, but the team he had was good enough to run away with the Championship a couple of seasons before that iirc which the pro Keane people seem to be forgetting.

also, when he got to the PL, by anyones standards he spent huge money & failed.

so far imo, he has found wanting as a manager at the top level.

How did he fail with Sunderland in the PL though? He kept them up. That was the target and he achieved it.

Mr Alan

Lemlin wrote: »

How did he fail with Sunderland in the PL though? He kept them up. That was the target and he achieved it.

because there was massive investment in the team, they were being touted as contenders for Europe with one of their new signings even talking about the Champions League (Kieran Richardson!:eek:)

Lemlin

Quint wrote: »

I sick of this "took them from the bottom of the championship" stuff like it's one of the most amazing turnarounds in the history of football. They had 3 points from 5 games, and were still one of the favourites to go up.
Incidently, 3 from 5 is a lot better than 4 from 5 which ipswich are on now. If he's such a fantastic manager Ipswich will surge up the table and win the championship.
And also, he took over the "worst team in premiership history". Yes, they were bad in the premiership, but the year before they strolled the championship. edit: Mr. Alan mentioned that
I remember when sunderland were doing well and there was a lot of talk about keane becoming the new united manager. Well I reckon there's a better change of a Rafa/Brian Kerr partnership in charge of Man-u.

So they lost 3 out of the first 5 games and the bookies still had them as favourites to go up did they? Have you any evidence to back that rather rash statement up? I can't see the bookie's leaving any team that were bottom of the table favourites to go up.

The Championship is one of the toughest leagues in the world. Anyone can beat anyone. It's alot more competitive than the PL. Just look at the likes of Leicester, Leeds and Man City who all ended up relegated from it in recent years despite being large Premier League clubs only years before.

Leeds had only been in the Champions League semi final a few years before they were relegated, so why didn't they bounce back easily? Look at Derby also. They went up and came quickly back down and were in a similar run to Sunderland and just couldn't stop losing. Once players start losing it's very hard to get out of the habit when confidence is low. Paul Jewell is a good manager and he couldn't turn Derby around.

Keane went in there, spent very little, motivated a group of players who probably couldn't get any lower, got them up and then, more importantly, kept them up. I don't see how he could be seen as a failure in the PL because Sunderland are still there.

Lemlin

Mr Alan wrote: »

because there was massive investment in the team, they were being touted as contenders for Europe with one of their new signings even talking about the Champions League (Kieran Richardson!:eek:)

What massive investment was there? Has anyone another list of signings for me to pick through?

Keane spent less than 20 to 30 million when they got to the PL I'd say. The top teams would spend that on one player. Even the likes of Spurs were throwing 16 million around for Darren Bent back then. Villa have also been big spenders.

As for players, with alot of them, what they say has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Would you really think Keane and Sunderland expected to get into Europe that season?

I'm no big fan of Keane but I just think people are too eager to knock him and his achievements. He's a manager who isn't even 40 yet.

Mr Alan

Lemlin wrote: »

Keane spent less than 20 to 30 million I'd say. The top teams would spend that on one player. Even the likes of Spurs were throwing 16 million around for Darren Bent back then. Villa have also been big spenders.

this is my point, even if he spent that much (i think it was more), did Hull spend that last year? did Stoke? did Wolves this summer? did Barnsley?

no, Sunderland did not behave like a newly promoted club when they got promoted, they spent big & there was expectations there for more than roy delivered.

*quick google shows Roy spent about 70m in two years there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/s/sunderland/7764671.stm

Lemlin

Mr Alan wrote: »

this is my point, even if he spent that much (i think it was more), did Hull spend that last year? did Stoke? did Wolves this summer? did Barnsley?

no, Sunderland did not behave like a newly promoted club when they got promoted, they spent big & there was expectations there for more than roy delivered.

*quick google shows Roy spent about 70m in two years there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/s/sunderland/7764671.stm

You're another one twisting the facts saying he spent 70 million in two seasons like our friend before who listed players he had signed after promotion and were signed before he came to the club.

He spent 70 million in three seasons (the figure mentioned is from August 2006 so it encompasses two seasons and a further transfer window up to December 2008), that's 23.3 million a season and the club got promoted and stayed in the PL. I'd see that as success tbh.

Stoke have actually spent a fair bit if you look at them now. They're doing what Sunderland did. They stayed up and now they are building on that success. Look at the amount of signings they made this Summer and last January.

I'm not sure about Wolves but they did shell out 6.5 million in the Summer for Doyle and had a good few other signings.

Barnsley are back in the First Division so I don't see your point about them or Hull (who'll be back in the Championship next year too). Barnsley and Hull are actually great examples that you do need to spend. One jammy season staying up in the PL and straight back down.

Just look at the amount of money Harry spent at Portsmouth and now at Spurs. Look at the money O'Neill has spent. Even the further money Bruce spent at Sunderland to get Bent and others this Summer. Teams need to spend in the PL.

Just look at the Sunderland team from yesterday -

Gordon - Keane signed
Turner
Mensah
Da Silva (Ferdinand 74) - Keane signed Ferdinand
Malbranque - Keane signed
Richardson - Keane signed
Cana
Reid - Keane signed
Cattermole (Henderson 46)
Bent (McCartney 90+3) - Keane signed McCartney
Jones - Keane signed

So Keane signed 5 of the starting 11 and Ferdinand would also usually start too to make it six.

Subs:
32 Fulop, 03 McCartney, 05 Ferdinand, 06 Nosworthy, 16 Henderson, 09 Campbell, 23 Healy


Interesting to see that Keane also signed 5 of the 7 subs.

Have you stats for how much money came in from Keane selling players? I think Sunderland actually made profits on Chimbonda and Diouf. They at least recouped a large part of the fees.

I also liked that the link was one where Niall Quinn said the board had begged Keane to stay. If he was such a failure, why weren't they accepting his resignation with delight?

It's not easy to get rid of an unwanted manager. Just ask clubs like Newcastle that are getting hit for compensation.

From the article:

Roy's decision sums up his desire to always do what is best for the club, despite the club's efforts to keep him," said chairman Niall Quinn.

"Roy deserves huge respect for his contribution and the manner in which he guided the club from the depths of the Championship back to the Premier League.

"His winning mentality and singled mindedness were just what this club needed. Even in his departure he has been more concerned for the welfare of the players and his staff than himself.

"The board has reluctantly accepted his decision and wish him and his family well for the future."

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

because there was massive investment in the team, they were being touted as contenders for Europe with one of their new signings even talking about the Champions League (Kieran Richardson!:eek:)

Your not explaining how he failed tho.

The target set by his boss was to get them to prem, box ticked.

for any team then coming up it's to stay up and IIRC that's what quinn wanted.

box ticked.

the press touting a team or players over estimating they're ability is not roy keane's fault, it's their own.

Mr Alan

does Roy Keane himself not say that his time with Sunderland in the PL was a failure?

Nalz

Mr Alan wrote: »

does Roy Keane himself not say that his time with Sunderland in the PL was a failure?

Ye I think I read/heard something like that, although the same man said recently that "maybe I was lucky at Sunderland, maybe I had good staff around me then and things just went my way, maybe I'm found out". Or something along those lines. As we all know his temperament will let him down at the end of the day. All very well being a class footballer, man of steel, brains to burn, but if you can't manage people then you can't manage a team.

Lemlin

Mr Alan wrote: »

does Roy Keane himself not say that his time with Sunderland in the PL was a failure?

He probably does but is the man not known for having hugely high standards?

As posted above, he got the club to the PL and kept them up. They are still there. That has to be seen as huge for a club that were always in and out of the PL regularly.

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

does Roy Keane himself not say that his time with Sunderland in the PL was a failure?

Maybe Roy set himself much higher targets than was expected of him as he did as a player.

Should Roy set up a boards account I'll ask him, until then I'm asking you to explain how when he reached all targets that were set by his chairman and reached them quicker than was anticipated can he be regarded as a failure.

please explain.

super_furry

I don't think he failed so much as bottled it and walked away.

Quint

Lemlin wrote: »

So they lost 3 out of the first 5 games and the bookies still had them as favourites to go up did they? Have you any evidence to back that rather rash statement up? I can't see the bookie's leaving any team that were bottom of the table favourites to go up.

I said one of the favourites. And 5 games into a 46 game season isn't that much. They were one of the favourites because teams just relegated always are.

Lemlin wrote: »

Leeds had only been in the Champions League semi final a few years before they were relegated, so why didn't they bounce back easily?

I thought everyone knew what happened to Leeds. They banked on a Champions League spot, didn't get it so their budget was fecked. Then they sold all their good players and got Venables in.

Lemlin wrote: »

Keane went in there, spent very little, motivated a group of players who probably couldn't get any lower, got them up and then, more importantly, kept them up. I don't see how he could be seen as a failure in the PL because Sunderland are still there.

£70m is a hell of a lot for a promoted club. He's considered a failure in the PL because he walked out on a team his expensive team when they were second from bottom. I think a poor bolton side just beat them 4-0 at home!
Funny that you use Darren Bent as an example of money poorly spent when he's currently banging them in for none other than sunderland! Anton Ferdinand for £8m, Craig Gordon for £9m, £4.5m for George McCartney over £10m for Chopra and Richardson:eek: and £2.5 for Paul McShane!

Mr Alan

ntlbell wrote: »

Maybe Roy set himself much higher targets than was expected of him as he did as a player.

Should Roy set up a boards account I'll ask him, until then I'm asking you to explain how when he reached all targets that were set by his chairman and reached them quicker than was anticipated can he be regarded as a failure.

please explain.

I've already said.

You've simply decided not to listen.

I've told you that with the level of investment made at Sunderland after their promotion & from what Roy & the players were saying, simply surviving in the PL was not their aim imo.

You've decided it was.

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

I've already said.

You've simply decided not to listen.

I've told you that with the level of investment made at Sunderland after their promotion & from what Roy & the players were saying, simply surviving in the PL was not their aim imo.

You've decided it was.

I'm not deciding anything.

His boss did.

he met those targets set, quicker than anticipated.

If roy wants to see that as a failure that's his prerogative.

Mr Alan

when did his boss say it was Roys target to stay up in his first season? (i'm actually genuinely curious about this)

and you reckon it was their plan to be in a relegation battle in season 2?(18th when he walked away)

*note to the overly sensitive, i'm not writing off Roys whole management career for the future or anything like it, simply saying that, so far, he has had 1 good season as a manager when, with a team that was certainly good enough to win the Championship (champions 2 seasons previous), he turned around an awful start and got them playing to their ability. But since then, he has been quite poor at the top level. He could well improve & in the future be a top class manager at the highest level

Lemlin

Quint wrote: »

I said one of the favourites. And 5 games into a 46 game season isn't that much. They were one of the favourites because teams just relegated always are.

And I'll ask again - have you any proof of this? Other than "They were one of the favourites because teams just relegated always are". What happened Derby then?

I thought everyone knew what happened to Leeds. They banked on a Champions League spot, didn't get it so their budget was fecked. Then they sold all their good players and got Venables in.

You're very funny with the initial line. What I'm asking though is why they couldn't get back up if it's so easy? After all "They were one of the favourites because teams just relegated always are".

£70m is a hell of a lot for a promoted club. He's considered a failure in the PL because he walked out on a team his expensive team when they were second from bottom. I think a poor bolton side just beat them 4-0 at home!
Funny that you use Darren Bent as an example of money poorly spent when he's currently banging them in for none other than sunderland! Anton Ferdinand for £8m, Craig Gordon for £9m, £4.5m for George McCartney over £10m for Chopra and Richardson:eek: and £2.5 for Paul McShane!

Blackburn were trounced 3-0 by Everton last weekend. Freak results where teams get hammered happen.

I didn't use Bent as an example of money poorly spent. I used him as an example that other teams were spending huge amounts and Keane had to spend to keep Sunderland competitive.

As previously stated, you continue to bend the facts. The 70 million was over 5 transfer windows and through three seasons. That's an average spend of 14 million per window or 23.3 million a season. Steve Bruce spent nearly 14 million on Darren Bent in this window alone, not to mention the further 10 million plus on Michael Turner and other players like Cana and Cattermole.

Richardson, Crag Gordon and Ferdinand are still playing regularly for Sunderland so what's your point?

McShane only cost £1.5 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_McShane_(Irish_footballer) and was sold on so Sunderlaand probably got a sizeable portion of that back.

Michael Chopra was signed for a fee that could RISE up to £5 million and was sold back for 3 million. Hardly a huge loss again - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chopra

Again I'll ask, have you any figures for how much the sale of players during Keane's era brought in?

Funny how you're not bringing up Andy Reid, Steed Malbranque or Kenwyne Jones also. They were also Keane signings.

Lemlin

Mr Alan wrote: »

when did his boss say it was Roys target to stay up in his first season? (i'm actually genuinely curious about this)

and you reckon it was their plan to be in a relegation battle in season 2?(18th when he walked away)

*note to the overly sensitive, i'm not writing off Roys whole management career for the future or anything like it, simply saying that, so far, he has had 1 good season as a manager when, with a team that was certainly good enough to win the Championship (champions 2 seasons previous), he turned around an awful start and got them playing to their ability. But since then, he has been quite poor at the top level. He could well improve & in the future be a top class manager at the highest level

Does Niall Quinn not say the answer to your question above? If Roy wasn't doing well, why weren't the club happy to see him go?

Nobody is saying it was a plan to be in a relegation battle but staying up is their target. Any team outside the top 7 are happy enough just to stay up.

The Sunderland board have even noticed they need to spend further, just look at the money Bruce has been given.

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

when did his boss say it was Roys target to stay up in his first season? (i'm actually genuinely curious about this)

and you reckon it was their plan to be in a relegation battle in season 2?(18th when he walked away)

If you you tube the early Quinn interviews he talks about it.

did you ever hear quinn state he expected European football in their first season back? ever hear him talk about top 5/6 finish? winning cups?

I haven't.

before the game at bolton IIRC they were something like 4/5 points away from 9/10th (i can't remember exactly) and the the bottom half was all extremley close (at the time and closest I remember it being)

he left given them more than enough time to rectify the position.

look if you just want to go on anti keane tirade be my guest.

did he waste cash?

sure.

could he have done more to work things out with the owners?

very possibly.

was the timing bad?

wasn't great.

over all did he do what he was asked to do when he took over.

yes, yes he did. in spades.

Mr Alan

I think you are confusing my stance on Roy Keane with being anti-roy or suggesting he should have gotten the sack or something like that.

I don't think he should have gotten the sack and i have a lot of respect for Roy Keane.

---

But the conversation was do people think he is a good manager, at the moment, i don't.

12 months before Roy arrived, sunderland had ran away with the Championship, but then got relegated straight back down.

He took over a good team who were struggling badly at the time, and he got them playing well & promoted.

That was very good work from him.

Then the next season there was a lot of investment made in the team & yet they finished 3 points above the relegation zone. Perhaps thats target achieved (me, the players involved & Roy don't think so, but some people obviously do).

Following season they had a poor start and 4 mths into the new campaign they were in 18th position & not looking too healthy.

Roy walked away.

Now he has taken over Ipswich & is having a very poor time so far.

These are the reasons i don't think he is a good manager. In the future, quite possibly he will be, but with the type of personality he has, i don't think so.

Lemlin

Mr Alan wrote: »

I think you are confusing my stance on Roy Keane with being anti-roy or suggesting he should have gotten the sack or something like that.

I don't think he should have gotten the sack and i have a lot of respect for Roy Keane.

---

But the conversation was do people think he is a good manager, at the moment, i don't.

12 months before Roy arrived, sunderland had ran away with the Championship, but then got relegated straight back down.

He took over a good team who were struggling badly at the time, and he got them playing well & promoted.

That was very good work from him.

Then the next season there was a lot of investment made in the team & yet they finished 3 points above the relegation zone. Perhaps thats target achieved (me, the players involved & Roy don't think so, but some people obviously do).

Following season they had a poor start and 4 mths into the new campaign they were in 18th position & not looking too healthy.

Roy walked away.

Now he has taken over Ipswich & is having a very poor time so far.

These are the reasons i don't think he is a good manager. In the future, quite possibly he will be, but with the type of personality he has, i don't think so.

Do you have actual figures for the amount spent in each transfer window?

Mr Alan

not to hand, but i'm sure someone does & it was commented on both at the time & subsequently that there was great investment being made in the team.

mormank

Boggles wrote: »

That wasn't the intention.

Rafa is an excellent example of why you shouldn't judge managers in the first few years of their careers. Actually he is probably one of the best examples.

Same way as you wouldn't write off any youth player starting out in his career.

In management, like everything else there is a learning curve, which everyone has to travel down.

As for Keane and Ipswich, they are really no better off than they were at this stage last year, wouldn't surprise me to see Keane walk, similarly it wouldn't surprise me to see them go on a run and gain promotion.

But I think I'm going off top topic, this is really about Yorke and trying to flog his new book.

I am more than willing to accept a ban for this but i want to get this off my chest. You really are just a troll in the true sense of the word. You constantly just post things to wind up people. The Rafa reference was exactly that. You put me off reading this site alot of times with your comments. And it would be so much better off without you. Grow up!!!

P.S. I'm gonna pre empt your silly reply by saying good day sir!!

Kingp35

Lemlin wrote: »

You're very funny with the initial line. What I'm asking though is why they couldn't get back up if it's so easy? After all "They were one of the favourites because teams just relegated always are".

You can't compare Leeds and Sunderland. We were in serious trouble financially so much so that all of our parachute payments had to go towards paying debts, we had to sell ALL of our players except Gary Kelly, had no money to bring anyone in except on free transfers and everyone knew we were either going into administration or going out of existence.

Sunderland had plenty of money to spend because of the parachute payments which already gave them a HUGE advantage over the other clubs, and didn't have to sell their entire squad which failed in the Premiership but was still a strong Championship quality squad.

People are making it out as if Sunderland were in serious trouble when Keane took over. They had a dodgy start but had an awful lot going for them compared to most of the other teams.

SlickRic

mormank wrote: »

I am more than willing to accept a ban for this but i want to get this off my chest. You really are just a troll in the true sense of the word. You constantly just post things to wind up people. The Rafa reference was exactly that. You put me off reading this site alot of times with your comments. And it would be so much better off without you. Grow up!!!

P.S. I'm gonna pre empt your silly reply by saying good day sir!!

that post hurt nobody but yourself to be fair.

myself and boggles have clashed before, but to be fair he's complimenting Rafa's management skills and just saying for most managers it develops with experience and time.

like some would say for Rafa if you look at his (very) early career.

like certain youth players.

it's actually a valid enough point.

mormank

SlickRic wrote: »

that post hurt nobody but yourself to be fair.

myself and boggles have clashed before, but to be fair he's complimenting Rafa's management skills and just saying for most managers it develops with experience and time.

like some would say for Rafa if you look at his (very) early career.

like certain youth players.

it's actually a valid point.

wasnt meant to be hurtful. regardless of this point i could find another ten at the drop of a hat. i do believe if you look up the word troll as it is intended on these boards you will find that a high percentage of boggle's posts fit the bill!

Dub13

mormank will be taken a brake for a day or two so lets move this on.

Pighead

Quint wrote: »

I said one of the favourites. And 5 games into a 46 game season isn't that much. They were one of the favourites because teams just relegated always are.

They were on of the favourites at the start alright but that would have changed massively after their horrendous start to the season.

Take this season for example. Ipswich were 14/1 to win the Championship in most bookies at thetsrat of the season. Now after five games and a similarly horrendous start they are 100/1.

To not give Keane credit for turning things around is extremely churlish.

Quint

Lemlin wrote: »

And I'll ask again - have you any proof of this? Other than "They were one of the favourites because teams just relegated always are". What happened Derby then?

Proof? Are you serious?:D Just use your brain! They have more money than almost anyone in that division. Of course that doesn't guarantee promotion. It was well done, but a lot seem to make a big deal of the fact they were bottom, as if it was some managerial masterclass that was almost impossible.
I'm not going through every relegated team over the last 10 years, Sunderland are a yo yo team and had plenty of parachute payments as well as premiership money over the years. I'm just saying getting them to win the championship isn't a big deal.

Lemlin wrote: »

You're very funny with the initial line. What I'm asking though is why they couldn't get back up if it's so easy? After all "They were one of the favourites because teams just relegated always are".

Read Kingp35's post. Leeds wasn't a bog standard relegation, they sold almost all their players due to bad financial management. And got Venables in!

Lemlin wrote: »

Blackburn were trounced 3-0 by Everton last weekend. Freak results where teams get hammered happen.

Ehh, I'm sure you could find a better example of a freak result! Everton finished 5th last year, Blackburn finished 15th. Everton beating them 3-0 at home wasn't a huge suprise. Sunderland had lost a load of games before that too. Hence second from bottom and keane jumping ship.

Lemlin wrote: »

I didn't use Bent as an example of money poorly spent. I used him as an example that other teams were spending huge amounts and Keane had to spend to keep Sunderland competitive.

OK then, spurs were a top 5 team and bought player that was a proven premiership goal scorer. Big difference comparing that to a newly promoted team spunking money on proven failures or unknowns.

Lemlin wrote: »

Richardson, Crag Gordon and Ferdinand are still playing regularly for Sunderland so what's your point?

Craig Gordon wasn't regular last season, or this season. Do you seriously think Ferdinand and richardson were worth it? Go to a west ham message board and find a thread about the Ferdinand deal. Most will say that if they got 4m they'd be doing well and thought christmas had come early.

Lemlin wrote: »

McShane only cost £1.5 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_McShane_(Irish_footballer) and was sold on so Sunderlaand probably got a sizeable portion of that back.

Michael Chopra was signed for a fee that could RISE up to £5 million and was sold back for 3 million. Hardly a huge loss again - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chopra

Look, I'm not going through the terms of every players contract. If you think Keane did well in the transfer market, fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Lemlin wrote: »

Again I'll ask, have you any figures for how much the sale of players during Keane's era brought in?

Have you tried google?

Lemlin wrote: »

Funny how you're not bringing up Andy Reid, Steed Malbranque or Kenwyne Jones also. They were also Keane signings.

3 good signings from about 40 players isn't exactly great! And a stretch with Andy Reid. Jones cost £6m. Don't think they'd make a profit on that. Can't find a figure on Malbranque. Knowing Keanes dealings it was probably about £25m