Dwight Yorke on Keane Management [mod warning post #42]

Quint · 30-09-2009 1:40pm

Pighead wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by that?
I'm saying I'd be more inclined to believe a players comments when he hasn't got a book to sell rather than when he has. Do you not think it strange that Yorke had a complete about turn in his opinions once it was time to flog his book?

I just read that Yorke article. Actually, funny reading it now

"We just have to crack on as players. We don't get involved in the politics. I haven't spoken to Roy but I've had a text from him.

"In a text it's very difficult to say what you want to say but I'm hoping to touch base with him soon."

Mr Alan · 30-09-2009 1:41pm

Hodgson is younger than Capello. Only a year or so older than Wenger.

He has a much better chance of being Utd manager than Keane imo.

In reality, both have no chance.

therecklessone · 30-09-2009 1:43pm

Pighead wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by that?

Have I just pigheaded Pighead?

Pighead wrote: »

I'm guessing you don't read too many newspapers then.

Dwight Yorke: Shocked and saddened to see Roy leave
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Dwight-Yorke-shocked-by-Roy-Keane-s-decision-to-leave-Sunderland-article34600.html

You offered him up as proof the players were sad to see him go...;)

The Muppet · 30-09-2009 1:47pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

He has a much better chance of being Utd manager than Keane imo.

In reality, both have no chance.

Thank's for clearing that up.;)

Pighead · 30-09-2009 1:49pm

therecklessone wrote: »

Have I just pigheaded Pighead?

You offered him up as proof the players were sad to see him go...;)

I know I did! And as I have already said, Yorkes opinion only changed when he had a book to sell.

We have two opposing quotes from Yorke. I'm saying I'd have a lot more time for the one that isn't associated with his "sensational" new book which is being serialised in teh News of the World.

Mr Alan · 30-09-2009 1:49pm

was just pointing it out to someone who seemed to think Bruce & Moyes were the main obstacles to Keane getting the Utd job

Mr Alan · 30-09-2009 1:52pm

Pighead wrote: »

I'm saying I'd have a lot more time for the one that isn't associated with his "sensational" new book which is being serialised in teh News of the World.

similar to Roy Keanes sensational book which was also serialised in the NOTW?

presume you think Roy made that stuff up all that stuff up too?

therecklessone · 30-09-2009 1:52pm

Pighead wrote: »

We have two opposing quotes from Yorke. I'm saying I'd have a lot more time for the one that isn't associated with his "sensational" new book which is being serialised in teh News of the World.

So what you're saying is you trust the sort of man who will amend his account based on his desire to sell a few more books as long as he isn't trying to sell a few books?

Personally I'd question the honesty of both statements.

Pighead · 30-09-2009 1:57pm

therecklessone wrote: »

Personally I'd question the honesty of both statements.

Fine by me! Which means this whole thread is rendered null and void! Yorkie made it all up!

Anyway all I was doing was responding to Quints statement which said he never read any reports that had a good word to say about Roy. I gave him three. Whether or not he chooses to believe them is his choice but at least now he's seen them!

Quint · 30-09-2009 2:05pm

I said any reports I've read have said the players were delighted when he went. I usually ignore the usual cliche rubbish from players, suppose the same way you ignore the comments from "an insider" or players selling books.

And after last nights games, Ipswich are now bottom of the championship after 5 games. Can he turn it around?

Pighead · 30-09-2009 2:11pm

Quint wrote: »

I said any reports I've read have said the players were delighted when he went. I usually ignore the usual cliche rubbish from players, suppose the same way you ignore the comments from "an insider" or players selling books.

And after last nights games, Ipswich are now bottom of the championship after 5 games. Can he turn it around?

So you ignore quotes from players but have no problem believing stories from "sources close to players". Interesting method of separating fact from fiction.

me-skywalker · 30-09-2009 2:21pm

Pighead - in that other link you gave yorkie doesnt actually say exactly what the msg Keane said. So for me there is no change of sentiment. Maybe at taht time he felt it might upset Sunderland more and not help teh situation so didnt say what it said out of respect for Keano but now he's trying to beat the cash cow so obviously gonna say these kind of things... here is the quote...

"We just have to crack on as players. We don't get involved in the politics. I haven't spoken to Roy but I've had a text from him.

"In a text it's very difficult to say what you want to say but I'm hoping to touch base with him soon."

Lemlin · 30-09-2009 2:26pm

Quint wrote: »

Do you really believe a player giving an on the record soundbite to a reporter on the day Keane was sacked would say anything other than the above clichés?

Read what Dwight Yorke said in the OP. Players were delighted when his car wasn't at the training ground.

And http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/sunderland/3551680/Sunderland-players-celebrate-after-Roy-Keane-resigns-Football.html
Incidently, he's not to popular at Portman Road:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1172967/Keane-appointment-welcomed-Portman-Road.html

Dwight Yorke is trying to sell his book. There isn't one quote from one of these players who celebrated in the piece you link to. It actually has nothing in it about players celebrating him leaving at all.

The pieces linked to previously had actual quotes from players. Not one small quote from a "source"

Who was the source, the tea lady's husband for god's sake!!???

Lemlin · 30-09-2009 2:30pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

was just pointing it out to someone who seemed to think Bruce & Moyes were the main obstacles to Keane getting the Utd job

I think either of those would get it over Hodgson tbh. I'm not sure United would pick from the PL anyway but I think those lads would be two of the front runners.

Lemlin · 30-09-2009 2:34pm

I'm not sure why player quotes are so important anyway. A manager looks after 20 to 30 potential first team players, sometimes more. You're bound to find at least a few who aren't happy.

Yorke could have various reasons for bigging Keane up (get the United fans who still love Keane buying his book) or criticising him (get a bit of controversey for the book). Personal reasons such as Keane dropping him could also come into it.

Everyone has their own agenda to be honest and Yorke has quite a big one at the minute.

Quint · 30-09-2009 2:36pm

Pighead wrote: »

So you ignore quotes from players but have no problem believing stories from "sources close to players". Interesting method of separating fact from fiction.

So you believe quotes such as wenger "i didn't see that incident", or mark hughes "bellamy was only defending himself". Just because it comes in the form of a quote, doesn't make it true! I use cop on to seperate fact from fiction.
Plenty of reporters protect their sources, if they make something up about a player, then can be taken to court. Same with Yorke.

Also, I quoted dwight yorke, but again you said I ignore quotes from players!

Anyway, we're clearly picking quotes that suit out own argument, so this is pointless

Lemlin · 30-09-2009 2:41pm

Quint wrote: »

So you believe quotes such as wenger "i didn't see that incident", or mark hughes "bellamy was only defending himself". Just because it comes in the form of a quote, doesn't make it true! I use cop on to seperate fact from fiction.
Plenty of reporters protect their sources, if they make something up about a player, then can be taken to court. Same with Yorke.

Also, I quoted dwight yorke, but again you said I ignore quotes from players!

Anyway, we're clearly picking quotes that suit out own argument, so this is pointless

Wenger has a reason for lieing there. As does Hughes. They are both protecting their players. Why would Ferdinand and Stokes bother their arses talking about a manager who has left unless they wanted to? Are they trying to protect their former manager that you claim they didn't even like? I doubt it.

If you say you have cop on, then use it. On the other hand, Yorke has a book to sell. Why do you think he's coming out with this stuff now? I'd believe the players who have nothing to gain over those who clearly have an agenda.

Plenty of reporters also work for gutter trash papers and make up sensationalist crap to sell papers. There's about one paper in Ireland that I would believe a story from: The Irish Times. There's about one website that I'd believe a story from: BBC Sport.

Do you really think players go through the papers picking out quotes to sue papers about? They couldn't be arsed.

What you have in that Telegraph article is a sensationalist headline which isn't even backed up in the story. There is one quote from the source only saying "he ruled with fear". Fergie rules with fear, does that make him a bad manager?

You're not even clutching at straws here. The straws are in one pub and you're sitting in another

The_B_Man · 30-09-2009 3:44pm

i thought it was common knowledge that keane wasnt the most likeable person, personality-wise.
While these comments may not be true, i doubt they're total fabrication. maybe exaggerations.

Chucky the tree · 30-09-2009 7:34pm

Lemlin wrote: »

He played 14 games and played a vital role in the majority of them. He was only missing for others because of injury problems. 500k wasn't a bad fee at all for a player of his experience who had played at international level.

Vital in the majority 14 games? Even the 4 he came on as sub yea? A pretty spectactular reach right there. I'd call 500k for a player who makes 14 appearances a huge fee at championship level.

Lemlin wrote: »

I stand corrected. He still assembled six of the 16 players you named, quite a considerable amount. And I'd still argue that if the squad was that good he wouldn't of had to do that.

As I said I left out some players, Daryl murphy being a big one who was crucial to them that season being 2nd top scorer, and keeper Darren Ward.

Lemlin wrote: »

Do you have any evidence to back this opinion up? Have you compared Sunderland's wage levels that year to other clubs in the Championship? Do you analyse the wage bill of every championship club who are promoted?

I love the way this argument is levelled at Keane here. Do you compare United's wage bill to Chelsea's when United finish above them in the table? Or do you compare Liverpool's to Arsenal's? No you don't because it's a dead duck argument but is one that you're happy to pull out when it suits.

Paying high wages does help but it doesn't guarantee success. It does put you at an advantage over other teams I admit (that's why the big four have an advantage) but you still need a strong character to lead the team. Are QPR not paying huge wages at the minute and still failing to have any notable success?

I'll also wait for the proof that Sunderland's wage bill was higher.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2301797/Deloitte-football-finance-review-Club-by-club-Premier-League-analysis.html

15. Sunderland: Won the Championship in 2006/07 with the highest wage bill in the league - a 37 per cent increase on the previous year.

It very difficult to find by exactly how much gap there is.

Lemlin · 01-10-2009 8:46am

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Vital in the majority 14 games? Even the 4 he came on as sub yea? A pretty spectactular reach right there. I'd call 500k for a player who makes 14 appearances a huge fee at championship level.

As I said I left out some players, Daryl murphy being a big one who was crucial to them that season being 2nd top scorer, and keeper Darren Ward.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2301797/Deloitte-football-finance-review-Club-by-club-Premier-League-analysis.html

It very difficult to find by exactly how much gap there is.

Keane paid 500k for a player who had played internationally, performed well previously in the division and had played in the PL. I would say Kavanagh was vital in the games he played that season.

You say Ward was vital. He has played 33 games for Sunderland over 3 seasons. Martin Fulop was signed on loan by Keane that season and signed permanently in January. If Ward was so vital, why was Fulop signed and why did he play 31 games in 2007?

That list shows that Sunderland had no deficit whereas the teams around them had:

Wigan - 14 mil debt
Derby - 30 mil debt
Boro - 85 million debt
Newcastle - 69 million debt

Reading put their wages up by 109 per cent. They were relegated.

So, if anything, Keane was a wise manager who used the money available to get the club promoted and keep them in the PL.

If wages mean so much to analysis - you're a Liverpool supporter, Rafa put Liverpool's wages up by 13% that season. SAF and Wenger only put theirs up by 8%. Rafa must be a terrible manager so :rolleyes: Arsenal and United both finished above them. Sure why can't he just put the team wages up and win the league

If it works for Keano, it should work for everyone.

Chucky the tree · 01-10-2009 5:27pm

Lemlin wrote: »

You say Ward was vital. He has played 33 games for Sunderland over 3 seasons. Martin Fulop was signed on loan by Keane that season and signed permanently in January. If Ward was so vital, why was Fulop signed and why did he play 31 games in 2007?

Fullop played only 5 games the season Sunderland got promoted. Ward played 30.

Lemlin wrote: »

That list shows that Sunderland had no deficit whereas the teams around them had:

Wigan - 14 mil debt
Derby - 30 mil debt
Boro - 85 million debt
Newcastle - 69 million debt

Reading put their wages up by 109 per cent. They were relegated.

So, if anything, Keane was a wise manager who used the money available to get the club promoted and keep them in the PL.

If wages mean so much to analysis - you're a Liverpool supporter, Rafa put Liverpool's wages up by 13% that season. SAF and Wenger only put theirs up by 8%. Rafa must be a terrible manager so :rolleyes: Arsenal and United both finished above them. Sure why can't he just put the team wages up and win the league If it works for Keano, it should work for everyone.

You asked me to proof sunderland paid the most wages, I did. I see now you're again moving the goals posts. You said wages budgets give team's an advantage which it does. This thread has no relation to rafa, fergie or anyone else. It's about Roy Keane. You claim Sunderland financial situation didn't really have much benefit, I hugely disagree. Spending £8million and being able to amass the biggest wage bill in the league gives them a huge advantage over every other club, to an extent where a managers ability can be off-set. I mean do you think Chris houghton is a great manager? I certainly don't, great coach though but the reason Newcastle are doing so well is because they have a fantastic squad of players so the manager doesn't have to be brilliant to get results. Flip the coin and look at hull and Phil brown when they got promoted.

kryogen · 01-10-2009 8:10pm

any form of debate on roy keane tends to be pretty futile

but as with most things people are passionate about, you believe what you want to believe, Quint doesnt like keane so he will be more then happy to believe anything that validates his opinions on him whereas people who support keane are always supporting any opinion that puts him in a good light, we have been here before and it will never change imo

Keane has the makings of a good manager, he isnt there yet but if he sticks it out at Ipswich and turns things around there it will do him the world of good

He did well with Sunderland and although he shouldnt have left, he left the club in a much better position then when he took over, profile wise and player wise

Alan, your opinion that Zola is a far superior manager to Keane is laughable there is no logical way to come to that conclusion. the martinez one is pretty crazy too considering its his first year in the prem league, he took over an established pem team and his achievements to that date are.......em...... winning league 1.....

EDIT: just to address this wags issue, Sunderland had easily the biggest squad in the championship that year, so more players = bigger wage bill, and this is a team that had just come down fromt he premier league, premier league = higher wages then championship.....

if newcastle come up this year will it be purely because they have a much much much bigger wage bill then any other club in the championship? (and some prem teams)

Lemlin · 02-10-2009 8:30am

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Fullop played only 5 games the season Sunderland got promoted. Ward played 30.

You asked me to proof sunderland paid the most wages, I did. I see now you're again moving the goals posts. You said wages budgets give team's an advantage which it does. This thread has no relation to rafa, fergie or anyone else. It's about Roy Keane. You claim Sunderland financial situation didn't really have much benefit, I hugely disagree. Spending £8million and being able to amass the biggest wage bill in the league gives them a huge advantage over every other club, to an extent where a managers ability can be off-set. I mean do you think Chris houghton is a great manager? I certainly don't, great coach though but the reason Newcastle are doing so well is because they have a fantastic squad of players so the manager doesn't have to be brilliant to get results. Flip the coin and look at hull and Phil brown when they got promoted.

Where did you get the stats on Fulop? I got mine from Wikipedia. I can't get into any other site to check them. It says he played 31 games for Sunderland in 2007:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fulop

I'm not moving any goal posts. You are using the point that a manager only needs high wages and to spend money to win things. So, my point is, why can't Rafa win the league? He upped Liverpool's wages and has spent well.

I've also asked numerous times - when a manager wins something, do you go and start analysing the wages that way and then put their success down to that? Sure Barcelona must of only beat United in the champions league final last year because they are paying higher wages. Did you analyse those stats? Do you analyse how much United, Chelsea and Liverpool spend each year? I haven't heard anyone ever say Fergie is only a good manager because United pay higher wages than anyone else, although they probably do.

That's my point. It's an argument that is rolled out when people want something to pick on.

Chris Hughton is recognised as an excellent coach in England when I've heard any feedback about him. Also, Newcastle weren't rooted to the bottom of the PL last season. Hughton also didn't have to get players in en masse to bolster the team. Newcastle are also a club who have been paying high transfer fees and still have some of those players. Did Keane have players like Martins and Collocini in his Sunderland squad?

What about flipping the coin and looking at Hull? Hull were lucky to stay up last year and will be in the Championship next year. Sunderland are still in the PL and show no sign of leaving it.

As my posts above say, I'm no fan of Keane - I should actually hate the man as he all but signed a contract with Blackburn just to turn his back on us. I do think people are all too willing to criticise the man and his achievements though. There are some people on here who aren't willing to put the Liverpool/Man United or Arsenal/Man United thing behind them and forget it.

Keane took Sunderland from the Championship to the PL. He spent 70 million over 5 transfer windows. An average of 14 million a transfer window. He spent 7 million on transfers to get them out of the Championship. They paid the highest wages there but probably had a high wage level as they were coming down from the PL. He brought them up and kept them up. In the second season in the PL things weren't going well and he walked when he should have stayed and turned things around. He did not leave the club in any sort of turmoil and they stayed up. Bruce has now gone in and built on the squad Keane had left. Sunderland are not in debt like alot of Premier League club. The chairman and players have since spoken about how they were sad to see Keane go. I also think he was liked by the fans.

I don't see what he did so badly there?

Chucky the tree · 02-10-2009 4:21pm

Lemlin wrote: »

Where did you get the stats on Fulop? I got mine from Wikipedia. I can't get into any other site to check them. It says he played 31 games for Sunderland in 2007:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fulop

http://www.soccerbase.com/squad_season.sd?teamid=2493

Go down to 2006/2007. Also on Darren Wards wiki page it says that once he his first start in October 06 he kept his place for the rest of the season.

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm not moving any goal posts. You are using the point that a manager only needs high wages and to spend money to win things. So, my point is, why can't Rafa win the league? He upped Liverpool's wages and has spent well.

I've also asked numerous times - when a manager wins something, do you go and start analysing the wages that way and then put their success down to that? Sure Barcelona must of only beat United in the champions league final last year because they are paying higher wages. Did you analyse those stats? Do you analyse how much United, Chelsea and Liverpool spend each year? I haven't heard anyone ever say Fergie is only a good manager because United pay higher wages than anyone else, although they probably do.

I don't think Rafa or Liverpool have ever had a higher wage bill then Chelsea or even Manchester United. This is the last report I can find where Liverpool are 4th, £14m behind Arsenal, I'll concede we've probably surpassed Arsenal but I still don't think we are ahead of Chelsea or United. Also the champions and the premiership are two completely different leagues and it's not a realistic comparison. I mean if in the 3 best teams in the Premiership were removed each year then I think Liverpool/Rafa would of easily won the PL with their highe wage bill/trasnfer budget they would of had over everyone else.

http://www.worldsoccer.com/news/Premiership_wage_bill_tops_1billion_news_122223.html

Lemlin wrote: »

What about flipping the coin and looking at Hull? Hull were lucky to stay up last year and will be in the Championship next year. Sunderland are still in the PL and show no sign of leaving it.

Have hull spents £70m+ on players? Hull stayed up on merit, plain and simple. Luck has nothing to do with it. Sunderland are in the premiership no thanks to Roy Keane, who left the club in the relegation zone. Sunderland are still in the premiership thanks to Ricky Sbragia getting them out of the relegation zone.

Lemlin wrote: »

As my posts above say, I'm no fan of Keane - I should actually hate the man as he all but signed a contract with Blackburn just to turn his back on us. I do think people are all too willing to criticise the man and his achievements though. There are some people on here who aren't willing to put the Liverpool/Man United or Arsenal/Man United thing behind them and forget it.

Keane took Sunderland from the Championship to the PL. He spent 70 million over 5 transfer windows. An average of 14 million a transfer window. He spent 7 million on transfers to get them out of the Championship. They paid the highest wages there but probably had a high wage level as they were coming down from the PL. He brought them up and kept them up. In the second season in the PL things weren't going well and he walked when he should have stayed and turned things around. He did not leave the club in any sort of turmoil and they stayed up. Bruce has now gone in and built on the squad Keane had left. Sunderland are not in debt like alot of Premier League club. The chairman and players have since spoken about how they were sad to see Keane go. I also think he was liked by the fans.

I don't see what he did so badly there?

He didn't do anything badly, but he's shown he's not a good manager so far in his career. He gets far to much undesrving praise from United fans because it's Roy Keane. Again, Phil Brown has been far more impressive in what he's achieved with Hull yet no one gives him close to the credit that Keane gets. Even you dismiss his acheivement of keeping Hull in the premiership as "lucky" and how they will be relegated this season.:rolleyes:

The season before Hull got promoted they finished 3 points ahead of relegation zone in the championship, during the summer Hull spend £2.7m on new players and we're expect to fight it out for relegation and he finishes 3rd with them and wins promotion. Then in his first year in the PL he spends £13m on new players and keeps them up. This summer he's again spend £12m and actually made more then that from selling players then buying players. Keane on the other hand spend £8m in his first year while having the most to spend on wages as well and wins the league. First year in the premiership he spends £60m and avoids relegation by 3points, he also managed to recoupd £2m in sales for a whopping -£58m. Then in his second summer he spends £22m while making £9m from sales for a -£12m total and he ****s off in November while there in the relegation zone. WP Roy, played a blinder there son. :rolleyes:

kryogen wrote: »

EDIT: just to address this wags issue, Sunderland had easily the biggest squad in the championship that year, so more players = bigger wage bill, and this is a team that had just come down fromt he premier league, premier league = higher wages then championship.....

if newcastle come up this year will it be purely because they have a much much much bigger wage bill then any other club in the championship? (and some prem teams)

They would of had a relegation wage clause though, so the affect wouldn't of been as drastic. Also over the course of 06/07 25 players left sunderland, while they signed 25 players as well. Heres the a list of players who made the most appearances in 05/06 PL season. The ones with stars either left in the summer or January transfer windows.

Dean whitehead
Julio Arca*
Gary breen*
Danny collins
Kelvin davis*
Justin hoyte(only on loan for 05/06)
Liam Lawerence*
Tommy Miller*
Nyron Nosworthy
Jonathen Stead*
Stepehn caldwell*

So 8 out of the main 10 players who would of been on PL wages ended up leaving.

I never said Sunderland came up purely from high wages, but anyone who doesn't think being able to pay top wages and spend millions of punds gives a team in the championship a massive advantage is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Dwight Yorke on Keane Management [mod warning post #42]

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