Question on the "approved" .22 pistol list

Grizzly 45

Folks,
Does anyone know ;the "approved for Olympic target shooting pistol list" of handguns,that has featured here many times.Is this the definitive,absolutely 100% kosher, no bother, inoffensive and nothing else shall be considerd by the Gardai/DOJ,PC approved for the sport of Olympic target shooting,EVER! list??

Reason I'm asking is I have been offered a couple of target pistols on the Continent that dont feature on this list,[proably due to their age] but are target pistols in .22.[High Standard Victor,Ruger Mk1 and a mk2 target, or a Colt Woodsman target model]..Could they be used for the holy grail of Oly shooting??Or does it have to be off this approved list,or the derivatives of them??

Bananaman

Are you planning on doing Olympic shooting?

I dunno about the Rugers but I learned to shoot pistol with a woodsman - great gun.

As to whether or not you will be allowed one - I doubt it until the list gets updated.

B'Man

LB6

Ruger's Mark I, II and III are on the list.

Sparks

"The list" is a guideline.
The actual restricted list doesn't mention models at all, just this:

“(e) the following short firearms designed for use in connection
with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee
regulations:
(i) air-operated firearms of 4.5 millimetres (.177 inch)
calibre;
(ii) single shot firearms using 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire
percussion ammunition;
(iii) other firearms using 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire percussion
ammunition provided that the maximum magazine
capacity of such a firearm does not exceed five
rounds and that the barrel length of the firearm is
greater than 10 cm.”.

Our man in Havana

Will there be any new licences for olympic shooting granted?

Bananaman

Whether we like it or not - from now on the 'approved list' that is in the Guidelines are the ONLY pistols anyone will be licensing. The Licensing officers of the Gardai will simply look at that list and if it is not on it will refuse the application as the firearm being sought is a restricted short firearm.

However, it IS a list so it can be added to and it is not part of primary legislation so it does not require a Dail vote to update it.

If the firearm you wish to license is not on the list then you should approach your NGB or get your club to do it for you - to ask the Gardai to include the firearm in question on the 'approved' list as it is suitable or is used in target shooting in Ireland.

e.g. the Colt Woodsman is a target pistol which is well capable of taking medals both here and abroad.

Doesn't mean it will happen but it is really the only avenue available at the moment.

Now - what will feck everyone over is if someone tries to play silly buggers and challenge the list because the firearm they wish to license conforms with the criteria in the SI as being suitable for Olympic sport - but - is not on the list.

In essence fecking over everyone whose firearms ARE on the list for their own selfish interests when all that is need is to get the firearm they wish added to the list.

B'Man

Grizzly 45

So QED B Man.It basically is;if it isnt on the list ,Bugger off!!:(
SIGH! Guess it is the Rugers then...Pity,I preferred the HI Standard..:(

CJhaughey

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So QED B Man.It basically is;if it isnt on the list ,Bugger off!!:(
SIGH! Guess it is the Rugers then...Pity,I preferred the HI Standard..:(

so did the CIA.;)

Grizzly 45

SCHHHHH CJ...No names,no drill,...Admit nothing...Deny everything,and burn after reading this!!!;):D

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Now - what will feck everyone over is if someone tries to play silly buggers and challenge the list because the firearm they wish to license conforms with the criteria in the SI as being suitable for Olympic sport - but - is not on the list.

Very good point - especially when the list doesn't need to be challanged in order to licence a pistol that's not explicitly named on the list, but does comply with the SI. (If the local super refuses to licence on the grounds that the pistol isn't on the list, the refusal won't stand up in the District Court because Dunne v Donoghue applies here in spirit - ie. the commissioner can't write his own SI using the guidelines).

That list is there to provide superintendents with a list of common stuff as a guideline; it's not a case of "if it's name ain't down, it ain't coming in". Starting a fight over it when there's no fight to start because the guidlines don't actually have any legal weight anyway would be a waste of time.

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

That list is there to provide superintendents with a list of common stuff as a guideline; it's not a case of "if it's name ain't down, it ain't coming in". Starting a fight over it when there's no fight to start because the guidlines don't actually have any legal weight anyway would be a waste of time.

Perhaps so - but nobody is going to get a short firearm that is not on it.

If people seek to chalenge it's use instead of simply getting stuff added to it - i.e. a court challenge - then we are all fecked - and will be back to 'designed for' again.

Whether or not we like it - it is what we have - all lists can be added to.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

If people seek to chalenge it's use instead of simply getting stuff added to it - i.e. a court challenge - then we are all fecked - and will be back to 'designed for' again.

Eh, we are still at 'designed for' with added listiness except said listiness has no legal effect.

Pedantic I know, but if people want to get shouty about stuff they'd do well to remember that guidelines aint law. :eek:

daveob007

Sorry for asking this again but on that page of the guidelines it states the following

quote the following .22 calibre firearms come within the definition of section 4(2)(e)(111) of the firearms (restriced firearms and ammunition)order 2008 as amended.Accordingly,applications for these NON RESTRICTED firearms should be made to the local superintendant of the gardai where the applicant resides unquote

reading this it looks like the list comes into the restriced order,then at the bottom is states that these non restriced firearms.

that list contains the hammerli xesse which has a 10 round mag,would this not be restricted under the new restriced firearms order.

i am a bit confused here because that paragraph seems to contradict itself.

so, is the hammerli or any gun on the guidelines list restricted or not????

once again sorry for asking what might seem to be a silly question but i need to know
many thanks

LB6

That's the guidelines for the non-restricted list

Sikamick

What I have been told any .22 pistol that is not of Olympic standard i.e. as was in the original list, is restricted, example SW 22a.

As long as the wording .22 Caliber Olympic standard is in the SI that's all that can be licensed as non restricted.

Sikamick

Sparks

That's not the case Sikamick, there was an amendment to the Restricted List SI brought out. The current definition for what is and is not a restricted pistol is this:

“(e) the following short firearms designed for use in connection
with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee
regulations:
(i) air-operated firearms of 4.5 millimetres (.177 inch)
calibre;
(ii) single shot firearms using 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire
percussion ammunition;
(iii) other firearms using 0.22 inch long rifle rim fire percussion
ammunition provided that the maximum magazine
capacity of such a firearm does not exceed five
rounds and that the barrel length of the firearm is
greater than 10 cm.”.

Our man in Havana

Can any new licences be obtained for these firearms?

Sikamick

Sparks correct me if I'm wrong, all .22 pistols that have a magazine/cylinder capacity above 5 rounds restricted.

Re what I was told, as long as the wording .22 Olympic standard is in the SI no other .22 pistols can been licensed legally as unrestricted.

Example, is the SW 22a an Olympic standard pistol, would it be covered by this “(e) the following short firearms designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations:


Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Sparks correct me if I'm wrong, all .22 pistols that have a magazine/cylinder capacity above 5 rounds restricted.

Re what I was told, as long as the wording .22 Olympic standard is in the SI no other .22 pistols can been licensed legally as unrestricted.

Example, is the SW 22a an Olympic standard pistol.

Sikamick

That's a really difficult question to answer Mick because there's no actual definition of what an Olympic Pistol is.

The IOC don't have rules, they defer to the International Governing Body (ISSF) whose rules are quite broad.

Providing the pistol will fit inside the measuring box (which is quite large), has a sight radius of no more than 220mm, a barrel length of no more than 153mm and a trigger weight of no less than 1000gr and the grip conforms with the rules, then it's allowed for competition.

The issue is with the 'designed for' wording in the SI which may be viewed as narrowing the field down to those pistols that were designed to meet the above specifications as tightly as possible.

But it's very much angels dancing on the head of a pin territory I'm afraid.

Bananaman

Lads.

It is quite clear - the IOC and ISSF have no say in Irish law or it's interpretation and never should.

The SI outlines what a 'non-restricted' firearm is - this definition - simply by being a definition is never going to be absolute as there will always be exemptions.

We have seen plenty of examples of this with the defintion of a bull pup rifle being incorrect - the defintion of assult rifle being wrong - the defintion of a 'pistol grip' on a shotgun being incorrect - etc.

There was also much confusion with regard to what is and what is not a .22 target pistol.

In order to clarify this the Garda Commissioner has issued a list, as part of the guidelines for licensing officers, of what 'short firearms' are non-restricted and therefore may be licensed.

Therefore - the guy who will be issuing the license - read super or chief super - will only license something wihich is on the list issued by the commissioner.

There was an initial 'leak' of this list here on boards but it was incorrect and only listed firearms which exactly conformed to the defintion in the SI - thereby excluding the pistols most people actually use for target shooting and a few more obvious ommissions such as revolvers.

The list, when actually published by the Gardai did contain the pistols which most people use such as the S&W 22a.

It could not be any clearer - until it is on that list you will not get a license for it - if it is on that list you may apply for a license for it.

If it is not on the list and you wish to apply for a license for it - then ask your NGB to ask the Gardai to add it to the list. Don't get your hopes up though.

B'Man

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

The IOC don't have rules, they defer to the International Governing Body (ISSF) whose rules are quite broad.

And not just ISSF, but UIPM and the IBU as well!

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

It could not be any clearer - until it is on that list you will not get a license for it - if it is on that list you may apply for a license for it.

It couldn't be clearer that that's completely wrong. The guidelines are guidelines. The SI is law. That's how it is.
If your super refuses to licence something because it's not on the guideline list even though it complies with the SI, then he is in error on a point of law and no court will support it; but more pragmatically and usefully, the Firearms Policy Unit can point out to him from an internal point that he's not in line with Garda Policy. If there's a problem, contact your NGB and they will contact the FPU.

Bananaman

Like I said Sparks - the list may not be perfect but at least it is a list which can be added to.

If someone challenges the list in court because it does contain some wacky model of pistol which nobody here has but which has a 5 shot mag forward of the trigger, attachments for the thunderbirds suit and mounts for the cooked chicken that is so 'in' this year - as opposed to attempting to get their NGB to get the Guidelines updated they will be fecking over everyone who has been licensed based on the Garda Guidelines and could cause licenses to be revoked.

What I am simply suggesting is that due to the fact that Garda Guidelines instruct Supers, that firearms which do not conform exactly to the SI may be licensed, it makes sense that they will listen to reasoned argument, from the NGBs, that something has been ommitted. If they are challenged in court because something is ommitted from the list then they will clam up and license nothing. If people take the piss and try to get stuff added to the list just to be bale to say that they did then they will also be feckin everyone over.

Right now youi can show them the list and, if you qualify on all other grounds, may apply for a license for anything on it. Without the List you are leaving it up to individual supers interpretations of the SI. I know which I would prefer.

The list means that those of us who do not currently own a .22 pistol, but wish to get one so they can win more in competition, can get one that that has a proven track record in Irish Competition - the ones I have seen most frequently are S&W 22a, Hammerli Xsesse, Browning Buckmark, Ruger, S&W revolvers, Pardinii, Walther.

This whole discussion came about because someone asked if they could license a Colt Woodsman or a Hammerli xsesse.
In answer to their question

[1] Colt Woodsman - if you had it pre-november yes - if not then no
[2] Hammerli Xsesse - yes as it it is on the Garda Licensing Guidelines list.

B'Man

(Sits back and awaits deluge of nitpicking and why my not sitting up all night analysing the placing of commas in the law means I am wrong)

Sparks

No nitpicking needed B'man, just these two points:

1. If a super gives you a licence for something that's on the list but doesn't conform to the SI (and there's at least one there that could be read to be in that category), then your licence is invalid. And while there's no penalty for the Super, there is for you.
2. And on the other side of the coin, if he refuses a licence for something based on its absence from the list in the guidelines, he's wrong. If we can fix it through the NGBs and NPU, brilliant - I don't like courts. But if we can't, then it may have to go to the DC because we've just spent ten years of crap to get through these changes and if we're going to just go back to the bad old days because a Super in the back end of beyond wants to flout Garda policy and the law, well what was the point then?

ps. Well, there's the third point that you're wrong about the OP's post and he can licence either, but that's kindof implied...

sharps

Hi guys,
Can anyone tell me where I can view the offical Garda approved .22 pistol list?

Sparks

There isn't quite such a list sharps, but the closest is the list in the Guidelines:

Baikal IZH 35
Baikal IZH 35M
Benelli MP90S
Benelli MP95E
Beretta U22 Neos\87
Browning Buckmark
FAS Domino SP602
FAS Domino SP607
FAS Domino SP 607 Light
Feinwerbkau AW 93
Feinwerbkau AW 93 Light
Frankonia Favorit
Hammerli 208\S
Hammerli 280
Hammerli SP 20\SP 20 RRS\Xesse
Matchguns MG2\E
Matchguns MG2\E-RF
Morini CM102E\CM22E\M\RF
Pardini SPE
Pardini SP or SP Rapid Fire
Pardini SP1 or SP 1 Rapid Fire
Sako Tri-Ace
Smith & Wesson 22A\41\617
Ruger Mark I\ II\ III
Taurus 94
Tesro TS 22-2
Unique DES 69\U
Walther GSP or GSP expert
Walther SP22\SSP\M4
Walther KSP\SSP

xesse

if you can put the s+w 22a,browning buckmark, hammerli xesse and the rugers that all hold 10 rounds
why not have sig mosquito and that awful walther 22 pistol p22
what i,m saying is any .22 pistol can fall into the guidelines below

Sparks wrote: »

There isn't quite such a list sharps, but the closest is the list in the Guidelines:

Sparks

Almost all of the common .22lr pistols could be used according to the law xesse.
Maybe not the P22, but to be honest, the P22 is no loss. It's horribly inaccurate and has a history of having that potmetal slide fail catastrophically.