Another completely irrelevant yes poster from the Greens - let's have a discussion...

hatrickpatrick

...on this.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thegreenparty/3925124259/

The Poster wrote:

Europe has made life better for:
Women,
Workers,
Our environment
And Ireland
Yes for Ireland, Yes for Europe, Yes to Lisbon.

This is in my opinion an example of the completely irrelevant posters from the yes side. Let's put the no side's drivel to one side for a moment - we've all agreed that Libertas and Coir's posters are complete crap, but this is from a "mainstream" party as the yes side are so fond of saying so you would presumably except a much higher standard.

Europe has indeed made life better for women, workers, the environment, and this country.
What has that got to do with the Lisbon treaty? We will be members of the EU whether we vote yes or not. Nothing in that poster actually mentions the treaty at all. Why should we vote for this particular treaty just because the organization which proposed it has done good in the past? I mean the USA did well in WWII, does that mean we should back every decision they take, including Iraq, for example? The EU and its benefits are totally irrelevant to this individual treaty. We are not voting on the EU itself. For the last ****ing time.

This is the kind of crap which makes me feel that the yes side has totally lost the plot when it comes to campaigning. If you want people to vote for this specific treaty, you have to campaign on the merits of this specific treaty. I haven't seen one poster which does this, nor have I heard any speeches which do this.

Opinions?

(As always, could I just ask that in this particular thread we debate the issue at hand which is campaigning and what is or is not relevant to the debate rather than having an actual Lisbon debate itself? We already have plenty of those going on this forum and this thread is supposed to be something different. Please try and refrain from turning it into another completely average bog standard run of the mill Lisbon debate if at all possible! )

Sam Vimes

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What has that got to do with the Lisbon treaty? We will be members of the EU whether we vote yes or not. Nothing in that poster actually mentions the treaty at all. Why should we vote for this particular treaty just because the organization which proposed it has done good in the past?

An awful lot of the reasons to vote no are essentially based on a mistrust of the EU, that they are trying to take our sovereignty and trick us and force their will on us. This reminds people that the EU has been good for Ireland in the past, that they are not these evil dictators that some would have us believe and also that this EU legislation that people are so terrified of being forced on us tends to be things like women's rights, workers rights and good environmental policy. The bastards :eek:

So it's not directly related to the treaty but it shows how that the EU does not deserve this reputation of an undemocratic dictatorship

Scofflaw

As I think has been pointed out before, the basic message is simple: the EU has been good for us, and the Lisbon Treaty is unlikely to change that suddenly.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Euro_Kraut

I think its a really poor poster. Too much text and no direct reference to Lisbon.

I'd still say the Ireland for Europe are the worst Yes posters though.

seamus

I actually think it's one of the more succinct and honest posters around. It's basically saying that Europe has been good for us, and Lisbon is good for Europe. It doesn't actually claim that Lisbon will/won't do anything in particular.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Both Greens & Labour mention improvement to the Environment, they're about the only treaty related posters I've seen from either side, and they're only a subsection of each parties poster campaign.

hatrickpatrick

Scofflaw wrote: »

As I think has been pointed out before, the basic message is simple: the EU has been good for us, and the Lisbon Treaty is unlikely to change that suddenly.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Which is a reason not to vote no. It's still not a reason to vote yes.

Are there any positive campaign slogans at all which are actually related to the treaty and true? "Yes for jobs" doesn't count as it is not related to the treaty or definitely true...

ei.sdraob

crap?


it hits the nail on the head

heres my interpretation of this posters (and ive no love for Greens btw)


passing Lisbon

* would help women being trafficed into EU for sex trade

* set the rights of people and workers

* fight global warming and create green jobs

* and help Ireland by maintaining our bargaining position


my 2 (euro)cent


/

ei.sdraob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Are there any positive campaign slogans at all which are actually related to the treaty and true? "Yes for jobs" doesn't count as it is not related to the treaty or definitely true...

The YES for the environment poster from the Greens is spot on ....

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Rb

Scofflaw wrote: »

As I think has been pointed out before, the basic message is simple: the EU has been good for us, and the Lisbon Treaty is unlikely to change that suddenly.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Indeed, I also saw it as targetting those who are too lazy to actually research the issue with the truth i.e they've been there for us so far, this will only help so lets vote Yes and keep progressing as a country and union.

Of all the posters and other advertising material I've seen lately though, I'm particularly impressed with the Referendum Commissions material. Very good.

squod

ei.sdraob wrote: »

crap?


it hits the nail on the head

heres my interpretation of this posters (and ive no love for Greens btw)


passing Lisbon

* would help women being trafficed into EU for sex trade

* set the rights of people and workers

* fight global warming and create green jobs

* and help Ireland by maintaining our bargaining position


my 2 (euro)cent


/

The poster is written in the past tense dude. It makes no reference to how the Lisbon agreement may turn out in the future. There's simply no evidence that it 'hits the nail on the head'.

P. Breathnach

The EU has been the driver of many of the improvements in our society; there is no apparent reason to believe that pattern will change; if the EU is enabled by the Lisbon treaty to function a bit more effectively (which is essentially what the treaty is about) then it is better enabled to continue doing good things for us.

The Volt

How much do you want them to say in the poster? A poster can't say much at all. It can only represent a view on what a certain outcome will lead to. In the circumstances of the yes side, it is very much so possible that continuing to work with the EU will help recovery, employment etc.

While vague and open to debate, it is only a piece of cardboard that people view whilst driving by. Too much is being made of the so called 'empty slogans' of the yes side's posters. At least they aren't deliberate attempts to decieve the electorate alá €1.84.

thebman

Its hard to fit the treaty on a poster, I think someone should photoshop it on to one to show how worthless that would be.

Rb

When Coir are sticking up horrendous, lie-filled crap such as the "Not on their lives" poster to appeal to the fears of the ignorant, how are the opposition expected to merely put up posters such as "Vote Yes! Councils meet in the open! Yay!" when the idiots who's votes depend on such campaigning will think "Great, so they'll be aborting babies in the open, what next? VAGINAS WITH BUILT IN NOOSES!??!".

The worst thing about the Yes slogans is that it actually gave the No side a reason for hanging around, if they didn't have those posters up the No side would be even worse off for something to talk about. It's all Ganley and others have talked about, had they not existed said people would be very stuck.

Borrowed the nooses line btw.

ei.sdraob

squod wrote: »

The poster is written in the past tense dude. It makes no reference to how the Lisbon agreement may turn out in the future. There's simply no evidence that it 'hits the nail on the head'.

your right in that case they missed a great opportunity to advertise main points of Lisbon

but it does nail the past so, the EU has been good for the listed parties (women, environment, workers)

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thebman

They should just ban these posters and the green parties should be championing it.

They are all worthless, all the time.

Even if it does get their faces out there in elections, if nobody has it then nobody benefits and nothing is lost or gained.

hatrickpatrick

To answer the question people are asking re: what I would like to see...

How about a poster with just a couple of bullet points, "The Lisbon Treaty will improve / give us / do the following"
- Point 1
- Point 2
- Point 3

Instead of "The EU" has done the following? The EU is not the subject of the referendum. This one, specific, individual treaty is. anything the EU has or will do which is not directly related to the treaty in question has no place in a debate about that specific treaty.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

your right in that case they missed a great opportunity to advertise main points of Lisbon

but it does nail the past so, the EU has been good for the listed parties (women, environment, workers)

/

But what has Lisbon got to do with that? They make no argument that Lisbon will be good for the listed parties - whether the EU itself is has no relevance to a single treaty. They are two separate issues - The EU's benefits and the benefits of Lisbon.

Sam Vimes

hatrickpatrick, do you acknowledge that something like "New powers of oversight for national parliaments [Article 12, TEU]" would not really be suitable as a snappy poster slogan?

ei.sdraob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To answer the question people are asking re: what I would like to see...

How about a poster with just a couple of bullet points, "The Lisbon Treaty will improve / give us / do the following"
- Point 1
- Point 2
- Point 3

Instead of "The EU" has done the following? The EU is not the subject of the referendum. This one, specific, individual treaty is. anything the EU has or will do which is not directly related to the treaty in question has no place in a debate about that specific treaty.




But what has Lisbon got to do with that? They make no argument that Lisbon will be good for the listed parties - whether the EU itself is has no relevance to a single treaty. They are two separate issues - The EU's benefits and the benefits of Lisbon.

as i said in my earlier post by putting the poster in past tense the ****ed up and missed a chance


but the other Greens poster about Climate change is quite on topic


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Permabear

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Permabear

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ei.sdraob

donegalfella wrote: »

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or their poster of a tank rolling down the street

(off topic: wouldn't SF love tanks rolling down certain streets?)

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Sam Vimes

ei.sdraob wrote: »

or their poster of a tank rolling down the street

(off topic: wouldn't SF love tanks rolling down certain streets?)

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Or the one with the guy holding his inside out pockets