Philosophy, its there to make us feel smart.

sells

Ah yes philosophy, Who made it-humans, what for- it doesnt matter. I like philosophy but basically what it is is another question if you all know what I mean. Knowing a bit or thinking you know a bit about it makes you feel intelligent, so philosophy could just be a another thing discovered by us just to make ourselves (physical body, brain)feel better. Just like thinking what it would be like to be on the x factor, and singing to youreself infront of the mirror. Most of these questions on boards.ie are just there to pass off boredom, we are never going to know if there true or not. As I always say, well just made up there now, that a question means only what you want it to mean, so dont break your balls trying to figure out the meaning, because chances are, your never going to find out the true meaning. Basically If I say that 2+2=5,...........................then 2+2=5 !!! So the moral of this story is there is no moral:D

by the way im not a philosophy student if your wondering.

potlatch

So you think that anything is possible as long as you can think it? 2+2=5 is true because you conceive it? Are you sure?

sells

Yes I think anything is possible. Anything man can dream of, man can do. 2+2 can = 8000, there is soo much more out there and past our physical noations, im sure of it, if you dont think so then your right aswell and also im not sure of it, thats the interesting thing, basically, I dont know anything, but at the same time I know everything and anything,the same goes for everybody else.

ChocolateSauce

"Truth may be defined as an accurate description of an observer-independent reality".

claireycork

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

"Truth may be defined as an accurate description of an observer-independent reality".

The above is very true.
Its what we believe to be truth can be truth but only in our eyes unless otherwise agreed with by another then it can become fact.

Joe1919

claireycork wrote: »

The above is very true.
Its what we believe to be truth can be truth but only in our eyes unless otherwise agreed with by another then it can become fact.

Is there a contradiction?

It would appear that you are putting forward a consensus theory of truth whereas ChocolateSauce is suggesting a correspondence theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

Ostrom

sells wrote: »

Ah yes philosophy, Who made it-humans, what for- it doesnt matter. I like philosophy but basically what it is is another question if you all know what I mean. Knowing a bit or thinking you know a bit about it makes you feel intelligent, so philosophy could just be a another thing discovered by us just to make ourselves (physical body, brain)feel better. Just like thinking what it would be like to be on the x factor, and singing to youreself infront of the mirror. Most of these questions on boards.ie are just there to pass off boredom, we are never going to know if there true or not. As I always say, well just made up there now, that a question means only what you want it to mean, so dont break your balls trying to figure out the meaning, because chances are, your never going to find out the true meaning. Basically If I say that 2+2=5,...........................then 2+2=5 !!! So the moral of this story is there is no moral:D

by the way im not a philosophy student if your wondering.

Why not pick up a textbook or two and discover where every concept of government, fundamental human rights, economics and ethical conduct comes from?

sells

Not on about where government, fundamental human rights, economics and ethical conduct comes from, Im on about philosophy, but if I was on about all that craic, I would still be right, .....................................efla. why not just relax........................efla.

poskantor

Sells, its clear you're not a philosophy student (although you felt it was necessary to state it) because you demonstrate such a lack of knowledge on the concept of philosophy.

I agree that there are many things which are possible, and beyond our comprehension...but there are certain fundamentals which are facts...such as a square has 4 sides, if it had three it would be a triangle...and 2 + 2 = 4...always

sells

Poskantor it is clear that you cannot think beyond the logic of things. ide say 2+2=5 in other dimensions, you just dont know. Yes what is wrong with stating that i am not a philosophy student, theres nothing wrong with that!!! Im pretty good at philosophy, besides the thread was more psychological than philosophical.

poskantor

2 + 2 always equals 4 where 2 is equal to 2 units. Of course if you decide that you want to represent 2 as say 10 units then 2 + 2 = 20. It doesnt change anything, the fundamentals remain the same, just the representation changes.

...and as for this being more of a psychological thread...thats just insulting, I'm a psychologist

Joe1919

sells wrote: »

Ah yes philosophy, Who made it-humans, what for- it doesnt matter. I like philosophy ..............

The first line of Aristotles Metaphysics is 'All men by nature desire to know' and IMO this sums up what philosophy is about.........its about our 'desire to know'.
Anyhow read the first short paragraph of this ancient text.
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/metaphysics.1.i.html

Ostrom

sells wrote: »

Not on about where government, fundamental human rights, economics and ethical conduct comes from, Im on about philosophy, but if I was on about all that craic, I would still be right, .....................................efla. why not just relax........................efla.

In asking such a question you were referring to all of the above. Physics was referred to as natural philosophy until the 19th century. Ricardo's theory of value derived from Aristotle, as did Marx.

mickstupp

"Philosophy, its there to make us feel smart."

Makes me feel pretty stupid most of the time... but then again, unlike what sometimes feels like a lot of people, I can tell when I don't know or understand something.

Of course one thing I do know is that 2+2=4 in any universe you care to imagine.

Joe1919

mickstupp wrote: »

Of course one thing I do know is that 2+2=4 in any universe you care to imagine.

You are right.... but...... numbers are concepts and are product of our imagination. We humans created numbers; we created numbers in order to describe quantities. If there were no humans ( or intelligent animals) there would be no numbers as there would be no-one to count.

So when you say "one thing I do know is that 2+2=4 in any universe you care to imagine", you are limiting your statement to worlds that exist in your or another humans imagination.

But what about worlds outside our imagination? Do numbers exist there?
Do numbers exist for other creatures? Do other creatures view the world as we do?

Do you for example know "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?"

http://www.clarku.edu/students/philosophyclub/docs/nagel.pdf

mickstupp

Joe1919 wrote: »

numbers are concepts and are product of our imagination. We humans created numbers; we created numbers in order to describe quantities. If there were no humans ( or intelligent animals) there would be no numbers as there would be no-one to count.

I think I disagree. You're not talking about numbers as such, only our descriptions of them, the words and symbols we use to signify we're talking about a number. I'm saying that in reality, beyond our admittedly faulty perceptions, 2+2 really is equal to 4. It is independent of whether or not any sort of being perceives it i.e. it has nothing to do with a subjective viewpoint.

Or, at least, that's how I see it. I don't believe 'Man is the measure of all things' so to speak.

Joe1919

mickstupp wrote: »

I think I disagree. You're not talking about numbers as such, only our descriptions of them, the words and symbols we use to signify we're talking about a number. I'm saying that in reality, beyond our admittedly faulty perceptions, 2+2 really is equal to 4. It is independent of whether or not any sort of being perceives it i.e. it has nothing to do with a subjective viewpoint.

Or, at least, that's how I see it. I don't believe 'Man is the measure of all things' so to speak.

The thing is that 2+2=4 only applies in theory or as a concept. There are many exceptions to this rule of addition in practice. For example, a 2 meter plank added to another 2 meter plank does not make a 4 meter plank.(unless one could glue them strongly together). There are also other instances such as when adding sound intensity levels (loudness) when straightforward addition does not work. For example a 2 decibels source and another 2 decibels sound source are not 4 decibels but 5 decibel. (Sound is measured in Log scale, 2db+ 2db =5db ). (Doubling the power adds 3 db) (10 log (P2/P1) = 10 log 2 = 3 dB) http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.html

We use this Log scale rather than a linear scale because of the way we subjectively hear sound. The mathematical model should match our subjectivity.

Anyhow, as I have argued before, 2 fairies + 2 fairies = 4 fairies may be conceptually true, but this statement has nothing to say about the reality of fairies and is obviously false as no amount of anything (except imagination) will make 4 fairies. Numbers are like perfect circles and triangles; they are tools that are constructed and used by humans to describe 'reality' (and fantasy).

For example mathematicians use the symbol 'pie' to describe the relationship between the diameter and circumferance of a perfect circle. Yet no such perfect circle exists in reality or can be found in nature. Similarly, we all know that the sum of the 3 angles of a perfect triangle make up 2 right angles but can you tell me where these perfect triangles can be found?
Perfect circles and triangles are like numbers, they are concepts and ideals that exist in our head; they relate to things in the world and we use them to try to make sense of the world. In many ways they are transcendental, like Gods.

Plato believed that they were 'forms' or 'ideals' or 'universals' and these had there own special world. Interestingly, at one stage, Bertram Russell (Philosopher and Mathematician) also seemed to believe in this world of universals. http://www.ditext.com/russell/rus9.html

We use mathematics and mathematical models and formulae to describe nature but this does not necessarly make them part of nature that is independent of humanity. It's foolish to talk about the 'Law of Gravity' as if this was a law that nature followed. Instead, we should see the Law of Gravity as a human construct or mathematical model and in terms of describing (to humans) the relationship and attraction between two quantities of mass.

tech77

mickstupp wrote: »

but then again, unlike what sometimes feels like a lot of people, I can tell when I don't know or understand something.

Wise man.
I sometimes wonder if that sentiment even has any value in our
"confidence" culture anymore.

It really does seem that the sentiment "if you don't know, pretend to yourself you know" has killed it.

Ugh...

Joycey

Someone asked me why i do philosophy in college the other day and it got me thinking. Probably the answer to the question is that its the thing I excell and enjoy most, but I started thinking afterwards about what it is that I find most satisfying about philosophy. The answer I came up with is that it allows me to experience the world in a much richer way, nothing to do with the empty posturing you seem to want to reduce it to...

IM0

Joycey wrote: »

Someone asked me why i do philosophy in college the other day and it got me thinking.

I would say good one! , but Im fairly sure you didnt mean that intentionally.

Now...Is Philosophy the first sign of madness though?

edit: actually thats so good Im using it as my sig!

e04bf099

claireycork wrote: »

The above is very true.
Its what we believe to be truth can be truth but only in our eyes unless otherwise agreed with by another then it can become fact.

Not true at all, imo. You cannot truely believe something that is false. What makes this confusing is that people exagerate the conviction of their beliefs for instrumental reasons, so people don't really believe those things that they say that they do. Unfortunately, the standard for objective truth is so high that almost none of our beliefs qualifies, and abstract truths are literally impossible, because of their abstract nature, which does not deny their factuality by verbal consensus. Truth/facts have been mixed up in false relations to eachother for all of modern history. Truth only consists in our true belief, which is derived from how that truth directs us and determines our actions/emotions/protentions/intentions/perceptions and all of the things that define our actuality, which is why it is so unbelievably difficult to pin down.

So, to make my point clearer, if 2+2=3 and you have three friends, but you desperately do not want an apple yourself, then give one apple to each friend and see what happens. If you have an apple left over then your actions will betray the truth of the matter, even if they do not betray the fact of the matter, which requires maths, as it is a mathematical statement, it can only be poved within mathematical principles.

Joycey

e04bf099 wrote: »

Not true at all, imo. You cannot truely believe something that is false.

Plenty of people have believed the earth was flat or that the sun revolved around it. Even today people talk about "creationist science"...

koHd

sells wrote: »

Ah yes philosophy, Who made it-humans, what for- it doesnt matter. I like philosophy but basically what it is is another question if you all know what I mean. Knowing a bit or thinking you know a bit about it makes you feel intelligent, so philosophy could just be a another thing discovered by us just to make ourselves (physical body, brain)feel better. Just like thinking what it would be like to be on the x factor, and singing to youreself infront of the mirror. Most of these questions on boards.ie are just there to pass off boredom, we are never going to know if there true or not. As I always say, well just made up there now, that a question means only what you want it to mean, so dont break your balls trying to figure out the meaning, because chances are, your never going to find out the true meaning. Basically If I say that 2+2=5,...........................then 2+2=5 !!! So the moral of this story is there is no moral:D

by the way im not a philosophy student if your wondering.

I'm not a philosophy student either.

But, if you understand philosophical logic, you know what you are saying is not right.

It's not a matter of simply stating 2+2=4 or 2+2=5.

You have to use logic to come to your conclusions.

There is always http://www.iep.utm.edu/ to learn some more about how to understand philosophy more.

sells wrote: »

Not on about where government, fundamental human rights, economics and ethical conduct comes from, Im on about philosophy, but if I was on about all that craic, I would still be right, .....................................efla. why not just relax........................efla.

That posts a windup surely?

sells wrote: »

Poskantor it is clear that you cannot think beyond the logic of things. ide say 2+2=5 in other dimensions, you just dont know.

There must always be logic. I do understand you're saying that our logic right now might not be the whole picture. And it is logic we have created.

But if you want to put forward a new logic, you must do it in a logical way

It really is very very complicated and I only wish I got to study it in college

Hopefully somebody that knows more about philosophy will post some more substaniated information that will bring you round to realize how important philosophy is, and that it's not just for the craic to waste some minutes in the day.

e04bf099

Joycey wrote: »

Plenty of people have believed the earth was flat or that the sun revolved around it. Even today people talk about "creationist science"...

Thats a myth, they never really believed it was flat. Most people didn't care enough to have a belief. The some early greeks described the world as cylindrical, then later they described it as spherical. People never really believed it was flat. A person saying they believe in "creationism" is not the relevent type of belief. Its just an expression and it serves only to allege yourself to some power structure. If somebody says that, they know that they will never have to face any consequences. When is that gonna bite them in the ass, in their actual lives. It is irrelevant to most people whether they evolved or not. I'm not talking about broad relevance, just things that matter to your career and famillial structure, your day-to-day routine, etc. Obviously it is relevant to everybody that they are partly genetically constituted, but as far as peoples personal lives are concerned, it is just irrelevant. So people aren't speaking truthfully, because there are no consequences true/false, in regard to that statement. The only effect it has is on your allegiance.

So I still maintain that you still can't truely believe something that is false, since the statements mentioned had no effect on the lives of those that expressed them, if they expressed them at all.