Subbing Problem in my School

maynooth_rules

Im a fully qualified teacher but as expected cant get a full time job. Since the beginning of last year in have been subbing/supervising in a local school. Another young guy subs there also, but he is not qualified to teach in any way and only has a business degree. We got roughly the same hours last year so it didn't bother me. However this year he is in almost every second day, while i have been called in just twice. This is really really annoying me. Surely a qualified teacher deserves to be called in ahead of an unqualified teacher. It has got to the stage where i am contemplating writing to the Department to complain. However i have a feeling the school will know the complaint came from me and will therefore give me no hours. Any hep is appreciated. I have talked to the principal about it but he brushed me off and said the other guy who is subbing is only doing Business Studies, which is a lie

spurious

Talk to the union.

PCPhoto

get the union on to it straight away - if he's not qualified he's probably not getting agreed wage - so they could be using him as it will cut costs - however , there are agreements in place (best of my knowledge)..... so union members get preference.

maynooth_rules

I have never got in contact with a union so to the best of my knowledge im not a member of any. What would it be under in on a payment slip, just simply union?? Im sure there has to be a system to protect a qualified teacher over an unqualified teacher. As i said, if i was getting decent hours i wouldnt complain, but it angers me to see him get virtually everything. Makes me feel the PGDE wasn't worth it

spurious

If you're in a VEC school the union with negotiating rights will be the TUI, in voluntary secondary schools it's the ASTI.

I'm surprised the local rep. hasn't pursued you for membership during the year. Perhaps there isn't a rep. in your centre. Ask in the school who the rep is and join. If there isn't a rep. get contact details for the local branch.

Many teachers complain that the union do nothing but this is exactly the sort of thing they are very good at tackling as there are agreed procedures about the whole area.

Nead21

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Im sure there has to be a system to protect a qualified teacher over an unqualified teacher. As i said, if i was getting decent hours i wouldnt complain, but it angers me to see him get virtually everything. Makes me feel the PGDE wasn't worth it

i totally understand where you're coming from, it angers me so much. there is a school in my area that is taking on unqualified teachers to sub and they are getting a couple of weeks subbing at a time, while i remain unemployed and fully qualified.

i cant understand this mentality in these schools at all...it completely makes a mockery of the profession.

implausible

Nead21 wrote: »

i cant understand this mentality in these schools at all...it completely makes a mockery of the profession.

Unfortunately, I can. It's cheaper to pay someone the unqualified rate. But you are right.

avalon68

maynooth_rules wrote: »

As i said, if i was getting decent hours i wouldnt complain

Im not trying to pick an argument but are you basically saying that its ok if the system is broken aslong as it doesnt affect you? If you got a full time position in the morning would you no longer be concerned about it? :rolleyes:

niall3r

avalon68 wrote: »

Im not trying to pick an argument but are you basically saying that its ok if the system is broken aslong as it doesnt affect you? If you got a full time position in the morning would you no longer be concerned about it? :rolleyes:

Well she would probably be concerned about it, but her level of dismay would be understandably be lessened. Everyone cares about injustice, but none more so than those who are victims.

niall3r

Also, playing devils advocate, the principal in the school might be giving this unqualified teacher extra hours that he could use on his PGDE application form. And after the first week in december the principal might be tipping you to take the lions share.

dogbert27

I'm probably going to get jumped on here, I'm assuming with a business degree he's subbing just business/economics/accounting subjects, what subjects are you qualified to teach? If you're a qualified business studies teacher I'll understand your grievance.

As pointed out, maybe he's getting the hours to help him get his PGDE and after Christmas the hours will be coming your way.

Have you discussed it with the principal to get clarification?

maynooth_rules

avalon68 wrote: »

Im not trying to pick an argument but are you basically saying that its ok if the system is broken aslong as it doesnt affect you? If you got a full time position in the morning would you no longer be concerned about it? :rolleyes:

No it wouldn't concern me. Sorry if thats selfish but in times like this I have to look after number one. There are plenty of teachers in the school who know the situation i am in and have done nothing about it whatsoever or tried to help me in any way

maynooth_rules

dogbert27 wrote: »

I'm probably going to get jumped on here, I'm assuming with a business degree he's subbing just business/economics/accounting subjects, what subjects are you qualified to teach? If you're a qualified business studies teacher I'll understand your grievance.

As pointed out, maybe he's getting the hours to help him get his PGDE and after Christmas the hours will be coming your way.

Have you discussed it with the principal to get clarification?

No he is subbing for everything. I talked to the principal about this last year and he said that he is only getting Business classes. In fact hardly any of his classes are Business. Im qualified to teach History Geography and English, and in the past he has been given these classes ahead of me.
Last year he said he was building up his hours to get into the PGDE, which is fair enough. I was in that situation so i fully understand it. However its a new school year now and he isn't in the PGDE. He worked enough hours last year to easily get into but he didn't bother.
I probably will discuss it with the principal again but its not someting id enjoy doing

dogbert27

Well if he's taking your subjects then that's a problem. If you don't want to talk to the principal again do as others have suggested and find the union rep.

To other teachers saying go to the union. What would the ramifications be? Would the rep go to the principal and ask for them to give the quaified teacher the hours? If the principal refuses on economic reasons would the teachers go on strike to get this girl the hours?
If that was to happen and the principal backed down and gave this girl the hours, what would the relationship then be between this girl and the principal, i.e. future references?

spurious

dogbert27 wrote: »

To other teachers saying go to the union. What would the ramifications be? Would the rep go to the principal and ask for them to give the quaified teacher the hours? If the principal refuses on economic reasons would the teachers go on strike to get this girl the hours?

I can only speak for a TUI/VEC situation.
In the first instance, the teacher accompanied by the rep. would ask the Principal. This is called Stage One in Union Speak.

If the issue is not resolved to the satisfaction of all parties, it goes to Stage Two. This is where the local branch of the union contact the Principal to possibly inform him of agreed procedures or to discuss the particular local situation. It's hard to say what would happen there. Presumably the Principal has a reason for employing an unqualified teacher when a qualified one exists.

If that does not resolve the issue, it will be brought up at the regular monthly meeting between the VEC's representatives and the representatives of the local TUI branch. These are Stage Three meetings and the vast majority of issues can be resolved here.

In the unlikely event that there is still disagreement, it would go to Stage Four where the union would address the full VEC committee and after that the discussions would be with the DES.

Strike action would not be an option in a case like this. It should be sorted by Stage One or Two, unless somebody is being belligerent for the sake of it. It's pretty clear, the qualified person should be employed first.

dogbert27 wrote: »

If that was to happen and the principal backed down and gave this girl the hours, what would the relationship then be between this girl and the principal, i.e. future references?

If there was ever a hint that the person who brought the matter to the union was being victimised, the Principal would be in a lot of trouble with the VEC.

As I said, it is a fairly straightforward issue (as we have been advised of it here). Perhaps the Principal is unaware that qualified people should take precedence. He/she will be told. If he/she then chooses to ignore that, then the VEC will tell him/her.

dogbert27

Thanks Spurious.

spurious wrote: »

Perhaps the Principal is unaware that qualified people should take precedence. He/she will be told. If he/she then chooses to ignore that, then the VEC will tell him/her.

How would that be possible though. Surely every prinicpal would be aware that a qualified teacher should get the hours?

spurious

dogbert27 wrote: »

How would that be possible though. Surely every prinicpal would be aware that a qualified teacher should get the hours?

Oh God you'd be surprised!
Not every Principal is in a union and while they should all know the agreed procedures, some don't.

It's less likely to happen in VEC schools where there are groups of Principals who meet and advise each other regularly, but it's entirely possible you'd get a Principal in a school where he/she talks to no other Principals regularly and hasn't a clue.

I recently came across a Dublin Principal in a fairly high profile voluntary secondary (non fee-paying) school who had not heard of the JCSP (Junior Certificate Schools Programme). Now, even if his school did not have many kids who might avail of this programme (which wasn't the case, they had plenty) the very fact that a person can manage to get to a position such as Principal without knowing about one of the major programmes available to students is almost criminally negligent in my opinion. Knowing procedures for filling deputy classes might be way down some people's lists of things they should know.

Miss Lockhart

I fully agree that it is wrong if this person is getting subbing hours outside of their subject area if you are available, and the hours are within your subject area.

However, if the hours are in subjects outside both your areas then I don't really see how it can be an issue officially, as according to the VEC you are fully qualified to teach there once you have a degree approved by the Teaching Council. We might not agree that the Dip should be disregarded in this manner, but for the moment at least that seems to be the way it is.

deemark wrote: »

Unfortunately, I can. It's cheaper to pay someone the unqualified rate. But you are right.

Even if the person has no Dip they will be paid the qualified rate by the VEC for subbing in their subject area once their degree is approved by the TC.

For the moment, the only financial advantage the dip seem to give, within the VEC sector, is the extra allowance given to those on a salary rather than the hourly rate.

gaeilgegrinds

I agree with Spurious. I was teaching in my old school while doing the degree. They were short an Irish teacher and couldn't find one qualified so asked me as my old Irish teacher was the principal and knew I was well able. However...I only agreed to take the exam classes as was determined to get a first in my degree and was not prepared to let it slide just for a few bob. To make a long story short, she rang me over hours the following year. It was wrong and I had to decline as was doing my masters. She was so busy in work she never thought that I was unqualified and never checked. So you'd be very surprised...does this principal even know the other teacher is unqualifed? And before anyone starts, I don't particularly agree with unqualifed people teaching as they're not teachers but was begged to come back and was the best they could do. Was obviously better than the students being given free classes just before their exams but I was fully expecting to be replaced at any moment by a qualified teacher.

rainbowtrout

maynooth_rules wrote: »

No it wouldn't concern me. Sorry if thats selfish but in times like this I have to look after number one. There are plenty of teachers in the school who know the situation i am in and have done nothing about it whatsoever or tried to help me in any way

To be fair, and I'm not trying to belittle your situation, there are subbing problems in my school as well, but when you're not a member of staff, teachers are not going to get into a debate with the principal about who is getting the subbing hours. It's not their job to hire substitute teachers. Teachers may also feel that they should be getting the subbing hours before outsiders are brought in as is the case in my school.

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

I agree with Spurious. I was teaching in my old school while doing the degree. They were short an Irish teacher and couldn't find one qualified so asked me as my old Irish teacher was the principal and knew I was well able. However...I only agreed to take the exam classes as was determined to get a first in my degree and was not prepared to let it slide just for a few bob. To make a long story short, she rang me over hours the following year. It was wrong and I had to decline as was doing my masters. She was so busy in work she never thought that I was unqualified and never checked. So you'd be very surprised...does this principal even know the other teacher is unqualifed? And before anyone starts, I don't particularly agree with unqualifed people teaching as they're not teachers but was begged to come back and was the best they could do. Was obviously better than the students being given free classes just before their exams but I was fully expecting to be replaced at any moment by a qualified teacher.

Yep, I'd agree with this. And the other thing is, sometimes I'd say a principal hires a person to sub, and then that problem is dealt with. There are a million other things that arise during the school day and I'd say for some principals looking for another sub when there is already a sub in place doing a satisfactory job is just not very high on the agenda at times.

givyjoe81

maynooth_rules wrote: »

No it wouldn't concern me. Sorry if thats selfish but in times like this I have to look after number one. There are plenty of teachers in the school who know the situation i am in and have done nothing about it whatsoever or tried to help me in any way

In times like this its the quality of education students are getting that matters, do you have the necessary skills/knowledge to teach his subjects? i.e. business studies etc baring in mind this guy has a business degree. Personally if i was a parent i would rather some with a degree in business teaching my child that subject rather than having a union inserted teacher with no relevant experience of the subjects. Its smart budgeting to employ this guy too if there are limited funds, and the principal isnt doing to screw you over, he is surely doing it with the best interests of the students with the resources he has available.

Why should the other teachers 'help you', by aiding you in screwing this guy over?! Will his removal result in you getting his hours? Im not trying to be confontational but i think thats a really poor attitude to be taking, as long as this guy is doing a good job, which he must be and is qualified to do (re; recognised degrees by teaching council) then there is no reason why the situation should change. I also think that 'snitching' on this guy to the department, particularly considering the above is pretty poor form. Everyone has bills to pay, not just you, and who knows maybe the department would see that this guy be removed to avoid an ugly union battle.

Nead21

givyjoe81 wrote: »

In times like this its the quality of education students are getting that matters, do you have the necessary skills/knowledge to teach his subjects? i.e. business studies etc baring in mind this guy has a business degree. Personally if i was a parent i would rather some with a degree in business teaching my child that subject rather than having a union inserted teacher with no relevant experience of the subjects. Its smart budgeting to employ this guy too if there are limited funds, and the principal isnt doing to screw you over, he is surely doing it with the best interests of the students with the resources he has available.

the fact of the matter remains, this guy is subbing in classes and is not an actual teacher. studying business in college doesnt necessarily give you "experience" in business, nor does having a degree make you a teacher. that is why people continue their training with the PGDE. personally, if i was a parent id want a teacher who is actually qualified to teach my children.

if you re-read the OP posts, the main concern is that this guy is subbing classes that are not just business, and that he is being favoured to take classes when there is a qualified teacher available to teach those subjects.

maynooth_rules

givyjoe81 wrote: »

In times like this its the quality of education students are getting that matters, do you have the necessary skills/knowledge to teach his subjects? i.e. business studies etc baring in mind this guy has a business degree. Personally if i was a parent i would rather some with a degree in business teaching my child that subject rather than having a union inserted teacher with no relevant experience of the subjects. Its smart budgeting to employ this guy too if there are limited funds, and the principal isnt doing to screw you over, he is surely doing it with the best interests of the students with the resources he has available.

Why should the other teachers 'help you', by aiding you in screwing this guy over?! Will his removal result in you getting his hours? Im not trying to be confontational but i think thats a really poor attitude to be taking, as long as this guy is doing a good job, which he must be and is qualified to do (re; recognised degrees by teaching council) then there is no reason why the situation should change. I also think that 'snitching' on this guy to the department, particularly considering the above is pretty poor form. Everyone has bills to pay, not just you, and who knows maybe the department would see that this guy be removed to avoid an ugly union battle.

Im a qualified teacher of Geography, History and English, I have experience teaching CSPE and resource, while the other person i am talking about has a 2 year Business degree. And i don't think its a poor attitude for me, that a qualified teacher with 3 years teaching experience, should be happy for an unqualified teacher who has shown no interest in doing the PGDE to be getting subbing hours in subjects that i can teach. I haven't 'snitched' on him, and most likely won't, and as I have said in one of my last few posts, i'd be more than happy to split the subbing hours with him. But surely the relevant authorites are there for issues like this, when someone who has put the effort in to become a qualified teacher is being overlooked in place of someone unqualified.

pathway33

maynooth_rules wrote: »

a 2 year Business degree

wow. Tell us more about this

dogbert27

Yeah, I've never heard of a 2 year degree course.:o

Nead21

dogbert27 wrote: »

Yeah, I've never heard of a 2 year degree course.:o

mmm 2 year business diploma, cleverly disguised a degree!!

maynooth_rules

it may have been a 2 year diploma. He was only in college for 2 years

Nead21

maynooth_rules wrote: »

it may have been a 2 year diploma. He was only in college for 2 years

well if its a diploma....he is qualified to teach at all, even without a PDGE???

pathway33

Nead21 wrote: »

well if its a diploma....he is qualified to teach at all, even without a PDGE???

is not.....sorry...i know what you meant

pathway33

Nead21 wrote: »

well if its a diploma....he is qualified to teach at all, even without a PDGE???

PGDE....sorry...i know what you meant

Nead21

pathway33 wrote: »

PGDE....sorry...i know what you meant

yeah sorry....clearly asleep writing that!!

ahem...if its a diploma, then is he qualified to teach, even without a PGDE?

:D

pathway33

Nead21 wrote: »

if its a diploma, then is he qualified to teach, even without a PGDE?

I thought a 3 year degree on its own was the absolute minimum. This would allow you to teach in VEC without the PGDE (although people are saying this will change)

For a mainstream secondary school, a PGDE is required (unless a suitable person with A PGDE cannot be found, in which case, a degree holder without a PGDE will be employed)

Nead21

in that case there is a COMPLETELY unqualified person subbing in Maynooth_Rules' school.....if thats not a case for the union then i dont know what is!

hhmm no wonder he hasnt done the PGDE!!!:rolleyes:

pathway33

Nead21 wrote: »

in that case there is a COMPLETELY unqualified person subbing in Maynooth_Rules' school.....if thats not a case for the union then i dont know what is!

hhmm no wonder he hasnt done the PGDE!!!:rolleyes:

and to add insult to injury...salt into the wound...etc etc...he said he was only doing the teaching hours to get more points for the PGDE which he was going to do this year. I'd like to see that application form

gaeilgegrinds

I don't understand the qualified and unqualified and completely unqualified differentiation here. Surely you're qualified or not. As for being an unqualified teacher, explain that one to me.

Nead21

well he's not a teacher full stop. he doesnt have a degree and he doesnt have a PGDE, yet he's being paid by the DES......explain that one Batt O'Keeffe??

pathway33

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

I don't understand the qualified and unqualified and completely unqualified differentiation here. Surely you're qualified or not. As for being an unqualified teacher, explain that one to me.

As I understand it and I'm open to correction on this an unqualified teacher would be any of the following

* A person teaching in a VEC with no degree
* A person teaching in a mainstream secondary school with no degree
* A person teaching in a mainstream secondary school with no PGDE
* A person teaching in a primary school with no degree
* A person teaching in a prmary school with no PGDE

I'm not sure about people who have a PGDE and are in their 'dip year'. Is that only for primary?

There could be other categories.

I'd say that school in Carrigaline wouldn't mind swopping a qualified teacher for an unqualified. At least they would have money for toilet rolls then

givyjoe81

pathway33 wrote: »

and to add insult to injury...salt into the wound...etc etc...he said he was only doing the teaching hours to get more points for the PGDE which he was going to do this year. I'd like to see that application form

Im a little confused, how can he do the PGDE without a degree, i thought you had to have a degree to do any post grad diploma. Please excuse my ignorance if this is incorrect, im just going on the requirements of my own post grad qualifications.

Nead21

you cant do a PGDE without a degree.

that poster was being sarcastic

givyjoe81

Nead21 wrote: »

you cant do a PGDE without a degree.

that poster was being sarcastic

I may have misread, but i thought the OP said that this guy was doing his PGDE now but only had a diploma.

Nead21

you cant do a PGDE without having a degree.

this guy said to the principal that he wanted subbing hours to build up his points for the PGDE application, but he never went ahead to do the course...probably cause he cant!

gaeilgegrinds

I wonder how the parents would deal with this information...

Toto Wolfcastle

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I may have misread, but i thought the OP said that this guy was doing his PGDE now but only had a diploma.

No, he isn't doing his PGDE. He was subbing last year with the intention of doing the PGDE this year, but he isn't doing the PGDE this year at all.

drusk

To be completely honest here, I would rather my child was taught Business by someone with a degree/diploma in Business than someone without any qualifications in Business. Bottom line. It's the education of the children that matters here, and from what I've read in this thread so far, the principal of the school is doing right by the kids.

I know plenty of teachers with the PGDE who simply cannot teach. So the whole "unqualified" story is crap. The PGDE, as far as I'm concerned, is a kind of "transition" year that eases you into teaching while giving you tips along the way. In all seriousness, how to you "qualify" someone to teach!!? There's no correct formula for every subject, every class, every student. Experience shows you how to teach.

If there was someone in my childs classroom teaching him/her a subject they had not studied at third level, I'd be unhappy.

In a perfect world, nobody would be allowed set foot in a classroom without a degree and a PGDE. But we don't live in a perfect world, and I'd consider knowledge in the subject area more important than having completed a PGDE in terms of hiring a substitute teacher.

Nead21

drusk wrote: »

The PGDE, as far as I'm concerned, is a kind of "transition" year that eases you into teaching while giving you tips along the way. In all seriousness, how to you "qualify" someone to teach!!? There's no correct formula for every subject, every class, every student. Experience shows you how to teach.

have you actually done the PGDE? i understand everyone is entitled to an opinion, but having a child going to school and actually being a teacher are entirely different things.

the fact of the matter remains that there is a teacher in a school that is unqualified. i know its not a perfect world, but if an unqualified teacher is teaching a class, then it is the students who are loosing out, and of course if grades are not up to scratch then who are the first to complain...the parents!

clartharlear

drusk wrote: »

The PGDE, as far as I'm concerned, is a kind of "transition" year that eases you into teaching while giving you tips along the way.

The PGDE is pretty much exactly the opposite of that.
There's no T for teaching in it. It's a diploma in Education, which is quite different from training in subject area teaching.
There was no point in which we were sat down and told "this is how you teach trigonometry". It was more, "think about a child with dyslexia/dyspraxia/ADHD/autism", "think about why what's on your syllabus is on it", "think about the adv/disadv of streaming", "think about where the norms of Irish schooling came from and question them"......

evolving_doors

All seems a bit 'nepotistic' to me...how did the "Teacher" with the 2 yr Bus diploma get chosen by the school..where did they find him?
I could imagine schools get cv's from tonns of qualified teachers (or ones with at least full degrees) every year..so seems a bit sus that they got him in...

Any joy talking to the vice principal? usually its the vice that does the timetabelling and daytoday allocation of sub work!! Unless a quiet word in the ear has been handed down from auntie/uncle principal of course...

gaeilgegrinds

I really think regarding health and safety, rules and consistency no teacher untrained should be let teach. It's not a transitonary course as was suggested, yes it does indeed have faults but it serves its purpose too.

Rosita

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

I really think regarding health and safety, rules and consistency no teacher untrained should be let teach.

I don't disagree with the core point that if there is any point in qualifying teachers at all then they should be employed in preference to those who are not qualified. But let's be honest such insistence by people is more about 'rules and consistency' than 'health and safety'. As someone currently doing the PGDE I have to say the healthy and safety tips so far have been non-existent. At this rate it seems to me that I will be as likely to burn the school down next September as I was this September.