ESB sub contractors want to cut my trees to bits

Kashkai

A guy stating he was sub contracted to the ESB, rang my door bell today and said he wanted to cut the trees at the side of my house where they are too close to an overhead power line. Now he said that he'd have to cut the trees under and to the side of the power line to a minimum distance of 4 metres clearance. In effect, this would leave a huge gaping gap in the treeline and would literally massacre a 20 year old Ash tree and leave just a single branch pointing straight up where a full crown of a tree was.

Now I understand the need for pruning the trees but this guy's attitude just stank. It was a case of we're going to cut these trees whether you like it or not. I've recently spent €20k on landscaping my garden and when I put it to him that I wanted the garden left in the same condition as it is now, he just smirked and said that he couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't be any damage to the plants and specimen trees that are planted in the area in question underneath the soon to be (?) massacred ash tree. He also said that while they would remove the larger branches, I'd have to clear up the smaller branches, the twigs and the leaves. He helpfully suggested that I could throw them into my neighbours garden. I told him to think again during which his partner came along and said that if I refused access, they would notify the ESB and they would be in contact with me (whatever they meant by that - threat perhaps?). I'm pretty sure that there are no wayleaves on my property that would allow the ESB to gain entry without permission.

I'm not trying to be difficult, i.e. the trees around the powerline have to be pruned I suppose, but I'd prefer someone to do it who might be more sympathetic to the existing mature ash tree that the amateur butcher who called today. I'd also like a guarantee that any damage to the landscaping works would be put right and not at my expense. Any ideas as to how I should proceed with this as I was told I have one week to allow access to the tree butchers.

The Sweeper

Document their responses. Refuse them access. Consult your solicitor on the basis that all you want is a guarantee that they won't wreck your property.

Are the trees on your property (e.g. your trees and your responsibility) or on the road just beside your property? May make a difference...

stapeler

Firstly I'd suggest taking lots of photos of the garden before any work is done.
Some years ago the ESB trimmed my Ash trees, in my absence they lobbed half the trees down the center leaving major branches to one side. Over a few years the trees started leaning to a point where they were dangerous, eventually I had to have them removed at my own expense.
Given the choice I'd have the trees removed all together, insist that they shred all the light branches to use as garden mulch and leave the firewood.

Kashkai

The trees in question are rooted on my neighbour's property in that the lower part of the tree is on the other side of the boundary fence but the vast majority of it, i.e. trunk and branches, overhang my garden which is where the felling will occur and gravity will have everything falling onto my property.

My neighbour gave permission to enter his land to do any cutting necessary on his side (or so said the tree cutters) but he wouldn't be too bothered about any damage as (a) most of the tree is on my side of the fence and (b) he has a sheep shed and rubbish on his side of the fence and any mess wouldn't be noticable amongst all the other rubbish he has piled there.

If they go ahead and cut the ash tree to bits, it will leave a solitary branch sticking up which in time could start to lean towards my house which is within the danger zone if this tree came down. Removing the tree entirely will leave a huge gap in the boundary and a not so nice view of the sheep shed and the rubbish piled up on my neighbour's side. Although I suppose I could then put in laurel hedging or similar that would grow quickly and could be kept under control height wise so it wouldn't be an issue for the ESB power line from now on.

Still a shame to ruin a perfectly good tree though (and I thought there was a law against cutting down mature trees?)

Risarow

Firstly, if they were looking for 4m clearance then there will be 10/20000 volts through the lines. If your trees are in contact or close proximity to the lines then there can be serious safety issues, especially in wet/damp weather.

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

he just smirked and said that he couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't be any damage to the plants and specimen trees that are planted in the area in question underneath the soon to be (?) massacred ash tree. He also said that while they would remove the larger branches, I'd have to clear up the smaller branches, the twigs and the leaves. He helpfully suggested that I could throw them into my neighbours garden.

If they told you this then under no circumstances let these people near your trees.
Tell them you want to see the ESB clerk of works and explain to him that these guys were happy to carry out substandard work on behalf of ESB, damage to shrubs, clear up yourself etc.

He will tell you that for safety reasons they need 4 m clearance but if you put your foot down they will most likely agree to a restricted cut of about 2m.
If you agree to this insist that the work is carried out by a qualified arborist (probably not the guys that called to you). A lot of these subcontractors will have tree climbing qualifications but this does not make them an arborist. Insist on seeing qualifications before any work is done.
A skilled arborist will have no problem pruning your tree correctly without any damage to underplanted trees and shrubs.
Incorrect pruning cuts, especially on trees such as ash can cause epicormic growth which could have the tree in contact with the power line in 1 or 2 growing seasons.
The ESB subcontractors work on a price for a large area so they want to get the work done as quickly as possible, hence the reluctance to clean up properly after themselves. After work is carried out your garden should be clear of sawdust, twigs etc. There is no excuse for leaving a mess.

Kashkai

Risarow wrote: »

Firstly, if they were looking for 4m clearance then there will be 10/20000 volts through the lines. If your trees are in contact or close proximity to the lines then there can be serious safety issues, especially in wet/damp weather.



If they told you this then under no circumstances let these people near your trees.
Tell them you want to see the ESB clerk of works and explain to him that these guys were happy to carry out substandard work on behalf of ESB, damage to shrubs, clear up yourself etc.

He will tell you that for safety reasons they need 4 m clearance but if you put your foot down they will most likely agree to a restricted cut of about 2m.
If you agree to this insist that the work is carried out by a qualified arborist (probably not the guys that called to you). A lot of these subcontractors will have tree climbing qualifications but this does not make them an arborist. Insist on seeing qualifications before any work is done.
A skilled arborist will have no problem pruning your tree correctly without any damage to underplanted trees and shrubs.
Incorrect pruning cuts, especially on trees such as ash can cause epicormic growth which could have the tree in contact with the power line in 1 or 2 growing seasons.
The ESB subcontractors work on a price for a large area so they want to get the work done as quickly as possible, hence the reluctance to clean up properly after themselves. After work is carried out your garden should be clear of sawdust, twigs etc. There is no excuse for leaving a mess.

Thanks for that. I don't have a problem with pruning the tree (properly) but this guy wants to eviserate it and leave a stump that in time will probably get diseased and die and possible fall into my garden due to its existing lean. I expect that you're 100% correct that these guys want to get in and out asap and won't want to waste time restoring my garden to its original condition (telling me I can throw the waste into my neighbours garden is a sure sign that they don't give a sh1t). I'll follow your advice and contact the ESB directly and speak to whoever is contracting these guys. Thanks

dh0661

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Thanks for that. I'll follow your advice and contact the ESB directly and speak to whoever is contracting these guys. Thanks

Please let us know how this goes.

old boy

be afraid be very afraid, part of my garden has been vandalised quite bruatilly, rare stuffhas been trampled upon and has died, they used a machine for mashing up the small pieces on the other side of my fence, in the process they pointed the machine over the fence, burying some plants with the mulch, now the problem is when that mulch breaks down it causes the earth to turn acidic, then i will have to watch nice plants die, as the ground becomes unsuitable.

Sonnenblumen

Remember that the core issue in all of this is that of Public Safety.

I often wonder why people plant trees under overhead electricity/telecom lines or indeed why the Utilities companies route overhead services so close to established planting schemes?

Kashkai

My trees where there before the powerlines went in. The previous owners of my land had no objection to the esb routing these high voltage lines across their property and judging by the amount of dead branches that I had to get removed by a 6 tonne digger, this tree cutting exercise has been done on several occasions in the past with no attempt to remove the debris. Thats why I am objecting to these characters coming onto my land to cut the trees and then feck off leaving me to clean up their mess. Like I said, I have no objection to the work being done on safety grounds as the trees are very close to the power lines (even if it is a great shame to cut a nice mature tree) but I won't clean up someone elses mess.

CJhaughey

I have seen some of these tree butchers at work and the results were atrocious, The cuts looked to have been made by a one eyed chimp with a chainsaw, half completed cuts, broken branches, cut branches left lying in the tree etc.
I am afraid the ESB often seem to choose the cheapest option when it comes to hiring these outsourced firms and the results bear witness.

dh0661

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

but I won't clean up someone elses mess.

Don't get me wrong here, I am 100% on your side, but if these "cowboys" leave this mess on your property >>> it ends up being your mess.

My interest here is that my Dad fought a similar case a few years back, he just stopped short of going to jail for it and cost him a fair bit in legal expenses.

old boy

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Remember that the core issue in all of this is that of Public Safety.

I often wonder why people plant trees under overhead electricity/telecom lines or indeed why the Utilities companies route overhead services so close to established planting schemes?

most of the trees would not have been planted by the home owner, tey would have been sown by nature, also i am old enough to remember when rural electriication came to the area,it was stater by the esb that in the event of the tines becoming a problem they would be moved, as people may have noticed during the last few years with power lines being lifted higher over farmland so as higher machinery could work in safty, when ige a working machine again i will post before and after pics

TheFatMan

We have some experience dealing with the ESB on similar issues and found them to be most accomodating. Call them ask for the area manager to come out and visit with you to review the issues and show him your concerns. You'll find they can be most understanding.

We had an old Fir tree that had been hacked by similar contractor cowboys before we had even bought our house. When I pointed out to the ESB on taking possesion of the land that their actions had effectively put my neighbours and my house in peril not to mention the public road out front they sent over a crew to remove the dead tree in full. Took all the crappy waste and left me with 2 year supply of logs to burn in our outdoor pot belly stove. They then gave me a beautiful 10 year old native Oak tree to replace the one they'd killed.

So my advice is call the ESB, find out who the area manager is and invite him out.

Kashkai

I spoke to my brother in law who happens to be a supervisor in the ESB and his job entails looking after the supply network in the Connaught region (should have thought of this before I know). He stated that these sub contractors HAVE TO clean up the mess after the tree cutting is done and the garden should be left in the same condition it was before the tree cutting commenced. He recommended taking photos before any work is done, just in case there is damage to my property. Funnily enough, he said I'd have to talk to the ESB's Cork office to speak to the guy who'd have responsibility for my area. Now how to get over the language barrier when speaking to a Corkonian

The Sweeper

It amazes me how some subcontractors in Ireland really think they can do a crap job and you just have to suck it up. The council hired tree cutters to trim fir trees in the estate my parents live in, in Bray, and the mess was still there 12 months later - huge branches left on the ground and the smaller detritus lying all over the place. It really was a disgrace.

By contrast, I have tree cutters who work along my road every so often, cutting back large fir trees from overhead power lines. I think it's a five man crew with a cherry picker and a dump truck, and while it's noisy while they're there, the place really is spotless when they're done and the trees are trimmed neatly. Where I am, trees and electric wires are a bushfire risk, so they do it regularly and take it very seriously and clean up after themselves because leftover detritus would also be a bushfire risk - but do you really have to run the risk of burning the place down before you do a job properly? Those contractors who knocked on Prosperous Dave's door sound like total tossers.

Risarow

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Funnily enough, he said I'd have to talk to the ESB's Cork office to speak to the guy who'd have responsibility for my area. Now how to get over the language barrier when speaking to a Corkonian

I think that your area may be dealt with from Portlaoise, certainly the ESB clerk of works will be from that depot.

I would suggest that whatever arrangements you make with ESB don't let that sub contracting crew do the work. They have already proved their incompetence by the way they spoke to you.

TheFatMan

I know they get a lot of stick but I've found the ESB to be the most customer minded Semi-State to deal with. Glad to see that wasnt a fluke Good luck

Westford

I appreciate that this is not something that you would wish for, and if I was in your position, I probably feel a little annoyed too. However there are a number if issues here, and some, you need to direct to the contractor, and some are for the contractor and/or the ESB. For example, the question of the 4m clearance is a pointless argument to have with the contractor. This is specified in the contract between ESB & contractor. So that needs to be brought up with the ESB... No point laying this one on the contractor. And you may be correct, they may agree to 2m. 4m is the specified clearance because it removes any obstruction form the line, while ensuring that the ESB don't need to get (pay for) the same work in the same region, a year or two later!
On the question of the condition of your garden after the works having been completed, you are correct... It needs to be left in the same state, or in a state agreeable to you (some people may be happy to have the mulch blown in at the bottom of a hedge, or piled for later use....Others will want it removed)! Again, this is in the contract between ESB & contractor.
This is something you should initially specify to the contractor (sounds like you already have). If he falls short of agreeing to this, ask him to return to the ESB clerk, and request that he asks the clerk to contact you....At which point you can point out the attitude of the contractor. Of course the phrase (exactly as it was) needs to be applied with a degree of common sense. You cannot expect every last thorn and every last leaf to be removed. You will know they were there.
I think the view expressed throughout the thread, regarding contractors are a little unfair. They are brought in to do a difficult job, in often dangerous conditions. How they do this, and what the do, is reasonably tightly defined in the terms of the contract they have with the ESB. And, as with every trade, or sector, there will be good & bad. I just don't think there's anything to be gained by painting them all as the bad guys.... Yes, there are ones who’s attitude stinks. But the contractor is the middle man, and just because we don't like the outcome of the job they are doing for the ESB, doesn't mean they are to blame.
On the question of the ESB’s right to do this, I think you’ll find that the law is on their side. Incidentally, you indicated that the tree is rooted on your neighbours side of the ditch or bank (if I understood you correctly)….. Not that it matters in this case, but this would mean that this is not you tree, but belongs to your neighbour.

tampopo

Yeah,

look at this photo. Three chestnut trees planted below ESB public lighting power lines. idiotic in the extreme. Luas Red line



I've called the Council, they said yeah, hmmm'd and haw'd over it. Two years later they're bigger again, touching the cables.

Kashkai

I rang the ESB customer service line, explained the situation and my dealings with the sub contractors. The customer service agent couldn't have been nicer, took all the details, stated that the sub contractors were out of order, promised to refer me on to the area office and would get someone to call me back.

The local area Clerk of Works called me 40 minutes later and I again filled in the details and he couldn't have more helpful and accommodating if he tried. I agreed that the trees did need pruning back but that 4 metres was excessive and would destroy the tree. He said he'd call the tree cutters and tell them to call round and I'd tell them how much of the tree they could cut (I had agreed 2 metres clearance with the ESB), that they would have to clear up all of the mess (within reason - I won't insist on every leaf or small twig), and that there WON'T be any damage (the ESB Clerk of Works was adamant that they will not be allowed to get away with damaging anything).

After dealing with some intransigent sub contractors, the ESB personnel couldn't have been more helpful. Full marks to a semi state company. I'll post once the tree cutting is done - hopefully all will be ok.

The Sweeper

Good outcome. As an aside, I know your neighbour doesn't do much with his property, but given it's his tree (rooted on his land), it's Murphys Law that the ESB will do the job as agreed with you, and suddenly your neighbour will crack it over some aspect that he was never consulted on...

tampopo

Good to hear you've had a good response from the ESB. I called them before and found them to be incompetent nincompoops.

Kashkai

The trees were cut yesterday with no debris (or damage) left in my garden. I then thought that perhaps I'd been a bit too over protective of my garden until I went for a walk yesterday and spoke to a neighbour who was fuming that these guys had hacked some of his trees to bits after his wife gave them permission to cut what they wanted. A mature oak tree in his back garden has a great big 'U' shape in the middle of its crown now and looks pretty ridiculous. Several other trees are now lop sided looking after having half of their crowns lopped off. When I told him that I had initially refused to let them onto my property until the ESB gave me a guarantee that they would be a bit more sensitive to the tree pruning, and that they then did a decent job, it made his humour a lot worse that they could be so careful with my trees and vicious with his.

Routing the powerlines over these mature trees (that were there before the powerlines btw) wasn't the best decision the ESB's made imo. Sometimes the best route from A to B is not necessarily the direct route. If they followed the roadway, they wouldn't have had the issue of tree cutting and it would almost have been as short a route as routing the powerlines cross country and over the trees!