Tonight's Frontline show

dresden8

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The downside is that Fianna Fail are able to deflect some of the blame on the global economic crisis, but still, even the thickest of Fianna Fail voters must be asking himself why the recession is so insanely worse here than any other country.

I disagree.

FF is not a normal organisation, it is a cult. And like the Rev. Jones, it's taking everybody with them.

gurramok

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its also fairly important that even those who took out serious mortgages they probably shouldn't have be given every opportunity to repay their obligations, not so much out a sense of fairness but because they are the last real asset of the banks and hence protect the deposits, so that needs to be looked at as well.

I found this from the debate on the public sector side that big mortgages were the real issue.
Ffs, no-one put a gun to their heads to take out a jumbo mortgage. Living beyond your means comes to mind.

Also, separating the audience into rival camps was creating tension, not the way to go about things, it ain't a gameshow!

ednwireland

first 4 months was on a 3 day week, then back up to 5 day, now a 10% pay cut (cos we have loads of work just not enough money coming in ) you should see how much tax the company doesnt have to pay by having a 10% pay cut.

actually got bored of PS workers whining on about pay cuts, switched off after 10 mins, the whole PS needs top down reform with massive pay cuts at the top trickling down to a few % at the bottom. and a restrucuture of management (most conpanies do this restructure every 5-7 years cos organisations always get top heavy with nanagement)

if it was started at the top i think that would be more acceptable but PS always cuts frontline spend cos its easier

optocynic

podge018 wrote: »

Their wages have decreased.

HOW?

It is a pension levy!!

That is the same as saying that if I begin to contribute to a pension scheme, it is a pay-cut!

Grow Up Public Sector... you are simply paying for some of your own pension now... like every other sap!

population

podge018 wrote: »

the IMF wont decrease the vast majority of the public sectors wage by any more than the Govt might. The only people that should fear the IMF are the 50,000 (guesstimate) or so earning the big bucks.

Have a look at Argentina et al. You have to view the IMF as a machine sent to do a job as quickly and effectively as possible so that markets will lend to a nation again without fears of debt defaults. Forensic analysis takes time especially when it comes down to the layers of nonsense contained within say the HSE. The quickest option is to just cut and fire across the board. This is what they will do.

population

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The IMF doesn't do anything, they just give recommendations to governments to sort their economies out. Once the governments execute these instructions, the IMF gives the green light to the markets to start lending to that government again.

There are recommendations and then there are RECOMMENDATIONS. Essentially they IMF tell the Govt "Look this is what is happening".

optocynic

population wrote: »

Have a look at Argentina et al. You have to view the IMF as a machine sent to do a job as quickly and effectively as possible so that markets will lend to a nation again without fears of debt defaults. Forensic analysis takes time especially when it comes down to the layers of nonsense contained within say the HSE. The quickest option is to just cut and fire across the board. This is what they will do.

I doubt it!.. For some reason, they are scared sh!tless of the Public Sector unions.

population

PeteHeat wrote: »

The reality is nobody with a mortgage be they public or private sector can afford a pay cut.

I think the young Lady who had her home repossesed was not given enough consideration, two earners who could not afford to keep their home.

One earner. Her husband was unemployed

population

optocynic wrote: »

I doubt it!.. For some reason, they are scared sh!tless of the Public Sector unions.

By 'they' I assume you mean the Govt. The decisions will essentially be taken out of the Govts hands. As I said earlier the IMF will say 'jump' and for fear of presiding over a failed state, the Govt have no option but to ask 'how high?'.

A 'yes' vote in Lisbon will provide a barrier to the IMF as Europe will keep funding us, but their patience will wear thin if we are seen to be just borrowing and doing nothing about it

Sin1981

hi,
good thread. Just wondering if someone might explain something to me....
What are the realistic chances of the IMF coming in??? Like, would this only happen if we end up like Iceland, which is not likely, so sf this IMF talk a bit ott and unrealistic?
btw, bring on the pay cuts. They're overpaid.

thanks.

optocynic

Sin1981 wrote: »

hi,
good thread. Just wondering if someone might explain something to me....
What are the realistic chances of the IMF coming in??? Like, would this only happen if we end up like Iceland, which is not likely, so sf this IMF talk a bit ott and unrealistic?
btw, bring on the pay cuts. They're overpaid.

thanks.

In some ways, the IMF talk may be OTT... or maybe just premature. However, since Ireland was recently viewed as a strategic market for business, with an educated and capable workforce.. the IMF may view us as being a higher priority than, say, Iceland.

But if the unions keep up their petulant, me-feiner crap and basic blackmail, no company will risk coming here in future. Why would they? An over-taxed and hence, under-motivated workforce, carrying an over-paid Public Sector with an unhealthy amount of malcontents holding the real workers to ransom.

jimmmy

The thing that struck me was the unbalance in the audience. All the public sector seemed hand-picked, whingy union militant types. Those from the private sector were afraid to say too much...eg the shopkeeper who admitted he needed public sector people to keep visiting his supervalue outlet. Fair play to Eddie Hobbs....despite harsh and repeated personal criticism he lay down the facts. eg a Guard would be paying 48% of his / her salary if he / she was to pay the full economic cost of his / her pension. ( guards can retire after 30 years ). And judges was about 85% - they can retire on full pension after 15 years.

Amhran Nua

optocynic wrote: »

I doubt it!.. For some reason, they are scared sh!tless of the Public Sector unions.

That would be because the public sector unions can and will shut down hospitals, schools and police forces in order to get their way. Thats the sick, the young and the vulnerable right there.

gurramok wrote: »

I found this from the debate on the public sector side that big mortgages were the real issue.

Its an issue for more than the workers, the banks need those payments to continue in order to stay solvent. Thus its in everyone's interests that they keep paying them. The question is of course, how many public sector workers have taken out mortgages, and of that number, how many have taken out mortgages such that a 20% (for example) reduction in pay would render them bankrupt on their PPR, not on some investment property, they can sell that and repay the shortfall themselves. Is it really as huge a number of people as all that? I find it hard to imagine, unless the public sector is wedged to the rafters with amateur property speculators.

As I wrote that last sentence, I got a horrible sinking feeling in my stomach for some reason.

kravmaga

podge018 wrote: »

Everyone in the public service took a wage reduction. The majority in the private sector didn't.

Disagree with your point, all my friends who work in the private sector have had no choice to have a 10-13% wage reduction.

So in my opinion the public sector have no taken there fair share of the pain.

I agree with Eddie Hobbs that public sector workers are living in denial and wll get it in the neck in the short term

irish_bob

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Aye, that's true, but not by as much as others.

deflation has been greater than thier pay cuts so thier still winning

irish_bob

podge018 wrote: »

Everyone in the public service took a wage reduction. The majority in the private sector didn't.

just keep believing that lie , like all the other union indoctrinated clones

irish_bob

Daragh101 wrote: »

I think nurses, docs, gardi, and teachers deserve to earn what they do...
I think there should be a cap on pay!
senitors and some hse workers claiming benifits in kind is crazy! €60,00+ on top of saleries for handy work!

thier can be no sacred cows and besides exempting certain areas from cuts would create real division , not like the phoney division which has been invented by the unions and which the ps workers parrot like clones , oh that and the fact that nurses , teachers and especially guards are over paid

irish_bob

gurramok wrote: »

I found this from the debate on the public sector side that big mortgages were the real issue.
Ffs, no-one put a gun to their heads to take out a jumbo mortgage. Living beyond your means comes to mind.

Also, separating the audience into rival camps was creating tension, not the way to go about things, it ain't a gameshow!

well considering how petulant , agressive and down right threatening the public sector side were , i think it was a good idea to keep them seperated , while numerically they were equally represented , the private sector did come across as quite meek , this was in sharp contrast to the glaring eyed ,rage filled , hysterical speakers on the other side

Many folks in the public sector are overpaid, not many in the private sector are overpaid currently. Public sector employees are going to get wage cuts, they can rant all they want about it, its going to happen. There will be f all support from the private sector if they then go on strike. The public sector folks have no realisation what it is like going into work wondering will you be getting your walking papers that same day. The public sector folks on the show last night came across as greedy, horrible individuals.

I also love the theory that they think all us public sector folks made fortunes during the celtic tiger. Also they seem to forget that they were constantly seeking wage increases over the boom, to keep in line with private sector folk. Now as private sector folk are faced with job insecurity, wage cuts and the dole the private sector folk feel that the pension levy is adequate contribution by them to.

They also love questioning why the private sector folk didn't go into the public sector, well why the feck did they not leave the public sector during the boom if things are so bad in there.

They really need to wake up.

Eddy Hobbs was spot on last night, and I am not a fan of the chap at all.

eoinbn

podge018 wrote: »

Everyone in the public service took a wage reduction. The majority in the private sector didn't.

It seems the unions think that everyone in the private sector works in an IBEC company. You can be pretty sure that close to 100% of the builders(the manual labour workers) have taken between a 40% and 100% paycut over the last 18 months- thats about 200k workers. That's just 1 sector. Most farmers have taken a 100% 'wage' cut in the last 12 months- it's a lose making game atm. Many retailors have been wiped out- you don't need to see stats for that, just walk into any town.

One final point. The unions will point out that some IBEC employees got pay rises- do you want an example of a IBEC employee that got a pay rise? The ESB workers!!! The very workers that the unions represent and threaten to strike over if they didn't receive their pay increase 6 months ago.

population

That ambulance driver rep was particularly obtuse and threatening in his demeanour. His comments about how he does the jobs that nobody wants to do was inflammatory as well as wrong as it indicated there are no jobs in the private sector with unsavoury work conditions and high levels of stress.

gurramok

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its an issue for more than the workers, the banks need those payments to continue in order to stay solvent. Thus its in everyone's interests that they keep paying them. The question is of course, how many public sector workers have taken out mortgages, and of that number, how many have taken out mortgages such that a 20% (for example) reduction in pay would render them bankrupt on their PPR, not on some investment property, they can sell that and repay the shortfall themselves. Is it really as huge a number of people as all that? I find it hard to imagine, unless the public sector is wedged to the rafters with amateur property speculators.

As I wrote that last sentence, I got a horrible sinking feeling in my stomach for some reason.

Examples of the teachers where it gained media exposure.

Remember the teacher on 63k who rang Liveline and gave out about the pension levy while having an investment property in Croatia as well as a PPR.

Remember the teacher who was on about 45k who hounded the Minister of Education about the pension levy at a conference...who had a mortgage of 300k.

Remember the GRA proposal to reduce members mortgages by 20% at the pension levy public protest.

Look at the outrage(genuine) at the property industry by the public sector spokespeople and here on boards as the main reason a paycut should not be entertained.

Last night, it was along the lines of 'we have mortgages to pay for'. I think mortgages the real issue to be fair.

Again, the taxpayer is not responsible for bad personal decisions.

Berti Vogts

population wrote: »

That ambulance driver rep was particularly obtuse and threatening in his demeanour. His comments about how he does the jobs that nobody wants to do was inflammatory as well as wrong as it indicated there are no jobs in the private sector with unsavoury work conditions and high levels of stress.

Totally agree about the ambulance driver. Came across very badly. He should visit a dole queue.

When most public sector workers go to work, they spend the day surrounded by other public sector workers and essentially live in a cocoon. I don't think they fully comprehend how much the economy has deteriorated even though they may claim that they do. There was an air of unreality about the programme last night. But there's going to be mayhem this winter if that ambulance guy is anything to by.

Amhran Nua

gurramok wrote: »

I think mortgages the real issue to be fair.

So lets follow this chain of events. Loosened lending criteria allow huge mortgages to be given out, in particular to public sector workers as they have the perception of job safety, which in turn helps drive up property prices, as does investment property purchase by these same individuals which helps create a huge artificial demand. All of this is fuelled by ongoing pay rises negotiated by unions under the bald threat of crippling the country, taken straight from the pockets of taxpayers.

So this is why Fianna Fail and most of the political parties want the property boom reinflated, most of the public sector (over 300,000 voters) want the property boom reinflated, the unions want the property boom reinflated, and anything connected with taking money from the revenue coffers wants the property boom reinflated. And they will take as long as it takes, whether it be ten years of fifty, to learn the lesson that it can't be done, and in the process wipe out the country entirely.

Assuming thats all more or less accurate, the level of complicity here is stunning. The only evidence that would be needed would be a rough statistic on how many public sector workers have taken out mortgages beyond their PPR in the last say ten years.

Riskymove

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Assuming thats all more or less accurate, .

indeed...but a big assumption

as far as mortgages being the issue, i think its more about people worrying they will become unable to apy their mortgage

its not really about wanting another property bubble...at least i hope not....hopefully people have learnt lessons from this collapse

jimmmy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The only evidence that would be needed would be a rough statistic on how many public sector workers have taken out mortgages beyond their PPR in the last say ten years.

It would be very interesting. Many of us would know a Guard with a buy to let or two, and a teacher with a holiday home, but how widespread was the overborrowing by the p.s. if they are that worried / cannot survive on their current wages ( of average of 966 per week as shown by the c.s.o. ) in these deflationary times ? Many p.s. workers never had it so good ( when else could they ever buy 966 mcDonalds eurosaver hamburgers with a weeks gross salary....or show me any other country in the world where a weeks gross average government salary can buy 966 hamburgers or a round the world flight ). And yet they complain + threaten strike.
Time to start storing the rotton fruit methinks;)

gurramok

You got it in one Amhran Nua. They got payrise after payrise under benchmarking(2002) which also helped them take out big mortgages under the guise of job security, future pay increments etc.

Of course, if most of the mortgages revert to a 0.1% interest rate tomorrow, i don't think a paycut would be an issue.

The bigger picture is a lifestyle issue as they are living comfortably if they do not have huge mortgages. Not sure if the unions want the bubble re-inflated, perhaps one or two members here could clarify?

Amhran Nua

Riskymove wrote: »

indeed...but a big assumption

Is it? I'd love to find out the facts on this one.

targus

optocynic wrote: »

HOW?

It is a pension levy!!

That is the same as saying that if I begin to contribute to a pension scheme, it is a pay-cut!

Grow Up Public Sector... you are simply paying for some of your own pension now... like every other sap!

What do you mean we are simply paying for our pension now.?
I have always paid for my pension,6.5% of my salary to be precise.Since January I am paying an extra 9% on top of that for no additional benefits.Thats a total of 15.5% so it effectively amounts to a 9% paycut.

synd

The most disgusting part was when you had some fat executive **** on the private sector side criticizing nurses who wouldn't take a pay cut. ****ing mental. That bloke def needs to be gulagd after the revolution

Eddie Hobbs got intellectually bitchslapped by the keynsians on the ps side. He walked in there thinking (as economists do) that his word would be taken as gospel - then figured out to his surprise that hypothetico-deductivist claptrap is being butchered by the new kids on the block. Hobbs also needs to be gulagd after the revolution - his voice goes through my head

This should not de-generate into a public sector vs private sector situation - its high earners vs low earners. Those on the highest wages within the public sector are non-unionized. The upper strata of the private sector and the upper strata of the public sector are the problem here.

Relatively small differentials in income between the working class are not the issue - and are being highlighted as part of a co-ordinated campaign instigated by the socio-economic elites of this country to divert attention away from the situation they have created. Just think - the people who made vast fortunes from this crash where watching TV last night in their enourmous mansions - feet up, with a cigar and a brandy laughing their heads off saying ''look at those ****ing pawns''