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Tonight's Frontline show

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    #62
    Aidric
    Registered Users Posts: 13,591 ✭✭✭✭Aidric


    irish_bob wrote: »
    this was in sharp contrast to the glaring eyed ,rage filled , hysterical speakers on the other side
    No doubt they'd been well prepped by their union officials before appearing on last night's show. This air of entitlement and stern resistance to change from public service workers is what sickens most private sector employees.


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    #63
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Possibilities wrote: »
    Totally agree about the ambulance driver. Came across very badly. He should visit a dole queue.

    When most public sector workers go to work, they spend the day surrounded by other public sector workers and essentially live in a cocoon. I don't think they fully comprehend how much the economy has deteriorated even though they may claim that they do. There was an air of unreality about the programme last night. But there's going to be mayhem this winter if that ambulance guy is anything to by.

    i dont believe public sector workers are as stupid as thier mindless rants would have the rest of us believe , we didnt cause the mess , etc , surely they dont believe that those who are lending us 400 million a week , give a **** who is to blame for our current deficit

    its as simple as this , property and only property and its proceeds were what made its possible to make our guards , nurses , consultants and many other public sector workers the highest paid in europe , surely those who work for the state didnt believe that this country could maintain its title of europes best performing economy by building , buying and selling houses indefinatley , we dont have an economy in this country which has the same level of variety as the uk , germany , the netherlands or other countries in eurpoe , we had a short term freak of a boom which is now gone and isnt coming back , the only way that ps wages can be maintained is if we raise income tax levels through the roof , i suspect that most ps workers have no problem with that as i believe most irish people will say or aproove of almost anything which will maintain thier level pay , we are an incredibly grubby nation when it comes to money , i have no time for compromise whatsoever when it comes to the public sector , i believe they would gladly bleed the rest of us dry so as to maintain the lifestyle they have become accustomed to and having seen that pat kenny show last night , i am left with no doubt that its war


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    #64
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    It wasn't exactly the finest hour for public sector workers. I had a sinking feeling they would come across badly when the first person in the queue to speak was a teacher. I do have a lot of sympathy for public sector workers, but they came across last night as having an air of entitlement and seemed out of touch with how the rest of the country is surviving in this economy.


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    #65
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    irish_bob wrote: »
    its as simple as this , property and only property and its proceeds were what made its possible to make our guards , nurses , consultants and many other public sector workers the highest paid in europe ,
    The question is, how many of them fed into the boom. If it was a significantly higher percentage than the rest of the workforce, then we have a bombshell of a statistic. Not so much the PPRs but the investment properties. That would be a vicious circle beyond belief.
    irish_bob wrote: »
    the only way that ps wages can be maintained is if we raise income tax levels through the roof , i suspect that most ps workers have no problem with that
    This is also interesting, if income tax levels go through the roof, won't they likewise go through the roof for the public sector? You'd need to hit something else besides income tax to even begin to make up the shortfall.

    So in a nutshell its completely impossible to make up the shortfall by taxation or any other means. Unless you wanted to hit VAT or the corporation tax or something. And would that ever be a bad idea.


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    #66
    niffle
    Registered Users Posts: 212 ✭✭niffle


    optocynic wrote: »
    HOW?

    It is a pension levy!!

    That is the same as saying that if I begin to contribute to a pension scheme, it is a pay-cut!

    Grow Up Public Sector... you are simply paying for some of your own pension now... like every other sap!


    PS have always paid for pension.


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    #67
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    The question is, how many of them fed into the boom. If it was a significantly higher percentage than the rest of the workforce, then we have a bombshell of a statistic. Not so much the PPRs but the investment properties. That would be a vicious circle beyond belief.


    This is also interesting, if income tax levels go through the roof, won't they likewise go through the roof for the public sector? You'd need to hit something else besides income tax to even begin to make up the shortfall.

    So in a nutshell its completely impossible to make up the shortfall by taxation or any other means. Unless you wanted to hit VAT or the corporation tax or something. And would that ever be a bad idea.

    your second paragraph is of course entirely correct but when did rational logic enter into the minds of our reactionary and petulant spoilt brats in the ps


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    #68
    Hootanany
    Registered Users Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    niffle wrote: »
    PS have always paid for pension.

    No they don't


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    #69
    population
    Registered Users Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭population


    synd wrote: »
    The most disgusting part was when you had some fat executive **** on the private sector side criticizing nurses who wouldn't take a pay cut. ****ing mental. That bloke def needs to be gulagd after the revolution

    Eddie Hobbs got intellectually bitchslapped by the keynsians on the ps side. He walked in there thinking (as economists do) that his word would be taken as gospel - then figured out to his surprise that hypothetico-deductivist claptrap is being butchered by the new kids on the block. Hobbs also needs to be gulagd after the revolution - his voice goes through my head

    Do you actually know what a gulag is or indeed what was perpetrated in them?

    Try bring something a wee bit less genocidey to the table if you want to be taken seriously


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    #70
    Daragh101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 585 ✭✭✭Daragh101


    irish_bob wrote: »
    thier can be no sacred cows and besides exempting certain areas from cuts would create real division , not like the phoney division which has been invented by the unions and which the ps workers parrot like clones , oh that and the fact that nurses , teachers and especially guards are over paid

    no they arent over paid!!. they are the life and blood of the country!
    I know i teacher who supervised exams for junior or leaving cert for two weeks!. at the end he was paid 1200 euro which was great, until he realised 730euro would be taken off him in different sort of taxes etc...now i garentee you that would not happen in the private sector..!

    your username says it all "irish bob" the average joe soap always being negative but offering no fair alternative!..:rolleyes:


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    #71
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    population wrote: »
    Do you actually know what a gulag is or indeed what was perpetrated in them?

    Try bring something a wee bit less genocidey to the table if you want to be taken seriously

    im starting to wonder is synda that ambulance driver who looked like he was going to nut anyone who disagreed with him last night , you know the guy , sweating , frothing at the mouth , eyes glaring and engulfed with unhinged rage


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    #72
    Berti Vogts
    Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭Berti Vogts


    Daragh101 wrote: »
    no they arent over paid!!. they are the life and blood of the country!
    I know i teacher who supervised exams for junior or leaving cert for two weeks!. at the end he was paid 1200 euro which was great, until he realised 730euro would be taken off him in different sort of taxes etc...now i garentee you that would not happen in the private sector..!

    your username says it all "irish bob" the average joe soap always being negative but offering no fair alternative!..:rolleyes:

    Because the magic fairy in the sky just drops that cash into the public sector every month, isn't it wonderful?


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    #73
    Turty3
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Turty3


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    It wasn't exactly the finest hour for public sector workers. I had a sinking feeling they would come across badly when the first person in the queue to speak was a teacher. I do have a lot of sympathy for public sector workers, but they came across last night as having an air of entitlement and seemed out of touch with how the rest of the country is surviving in this economy.

    As a public sector worker I am willing to take a fair share in cuts if it helps to fix the country's economy. However it is my belief that the government should lead by example and take a pay cut first. I feel it's time that if cuts are necessary they should be made from the top down. I am married to a private sector worker who is unemployed and I work with the unemployed population on a daily basis; I therefore take exception to the generalisations above. I do not feel entitled to any more than anyone else who works here and I am fully informed and experienced in the realities faced by people trying to survive in this economy - I too am one of them.


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    #74
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    targus wrote: »
    What do you mean we are simply paying for our pension now.?
    I have always paid for my pension,6.5% of my salary to be precise.Since January I am paying an extra 9% on top of that for no additional benefits.Thats a total of 15.5% so it effectively amounts to a 9% paycut.

    If I contribute to my pension... is it a pay cut?
    Y/N

    It was perk, that is being reduced in size!
    Get over it!


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    #75
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Turty3 wrote: »
    However it is my belief that the government should lead by example and take a pay cut first.

    they have


    another example of the problems inherent in the debate on these threads and the myths that circulate around


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    #76
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    optocynic wrote: »
    If I contribute to my pension... is it a pay cut?
    Y/N

    but you have a choice of options

    would you increase the amount you were putting in for no additional benefit?


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    #77
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    synd wrote: »
    The most disgusting part was when you had some fat executive **** on the private sector side criticizing nurses who wouldn't take a pay cut. ****ing mental. That bloke def needs to be gulagd after the revolution

    Eddie Hobbs got intellectually bitchslapped by the keynsians on the ps side. He walked in there thinking (as economists do) that his word would be taken as gospel - then figured out to his surprise that hypothetico-deductivist claptrap is being butchered by the new kids on the block. Hobbs also needs to be gulagd after the revolution - his voice goes through my head

    This should not de-generate into a public sector vs private sector situation - its high earners vs low earners. Those on the highest wages within the public sector are non-unionized. The upper strata of the private sector and the upper strata of the public sector are the problem here.

    Relatively small differentials in income between the working class are not the issue - and are being highlighted as part of a co-ordinated campaign instigated by the socio-economic elites of this country to divert attention away from the situation they have created. Just think - the people who made vast fortunes from this crash where watching TV last night in their enourmous mansions - feet up, with a cigar and a brandy laughing their heads off saying ''look at those ****ing pawns''

    I'm going out on a limb here... You don't like successful people... do you?


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    #78
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Riskymove wrote: »
    but you have a choice of options

    would you increase the amount you were putting in for no additional benefit?

    And there is the solution! It should have been voluntary..

    Pay the levy... or forego the pension!

    Like the rest of us saps in the private sector.


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    #79
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    niffle wrote: »
    PS have always paid for pension.

    Nope - not by a long shot. There are defined benefit pensions (mostly in the PS) and there are defined contribution pensions (mostly non PS).

    Look up the difference and then you'll realise why up until now PS workers have not been paying nearly enough.

    Yes, PS workers have started to pay more of late (VERY late), but non PS workers are sick of funding generations of PS workers Defined Benefit pensions ad-infinitum.


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    #80
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Daragh101 wrote: »
    no they arent over paid!!. they are the life and blood of the country!
    I know i teacher who supervised exams for junior or leaving cert for two weeks!. at the end he was paid 1200 euro which was great, until he realised 730euro would be taken off him in different sort of taxes etc...now i garentee you that would not happen in the private sector..!

    I hope you are f*cking joking mate!
    Every bonus I get... which, unlike the financial sector... I work damn hard for... gets totally destroyed by the tax man! I am lucky if I see half of it!
    ... and I work a lot harder than handing out exam papers and watching sweaty, nervous kids do absurd amount of writing!!


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    #81
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    optocynic wrote: »
    Pay the levy... or forego the pension!

    the levy is in no way connected to the pension

    there are no "rights" to a pension for PS workers at the moment, it seems terms and conditions can be changed at any time

    and all the while we have no choice and are barred legally from having our own pension schemes


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    #82
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    optocynic wrote: »
    Pay the levy... or forego the pension!

    Like the rest of us saps in the private sector.

    Have thought this also. Or at the very least should be given the option of funding a defined Contribution pension.


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    #83
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Riskymove wrote: »
    the levy is in no way connected to the pension

    there are no "rights" to a pension for PS workers at the moment, it seems terms and conditions can be changed at any time

    and all the while we have no choice and are barred legally from having our own pension schemes

    Well, why not get your rational and reasonable union bosses to focus on that issue?...

    I would fully support it, and it would save the country a fortune.. I would guess it would take a nice chunk out of the 20bn...


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    #84
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Riskymove wrote: »
    the levy is in no way connected to the pension

    there are no "rights" to a pension for PS workers at the moment, it seems terms and conditions can be changed at any time

    and all the while we have no choice and are barred legally from having our own pension schemes

    Do you know how much the PS pension funding is costing this state!?!

    I do agree with you that the PS should be allowed into the real world and fund its own pension, but it's laughable to think it could be any better than it currently is.


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    #85
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    smcgiff wrote: »
    I do agree with you that the PS should be allowed into the real world and fund its own pension, but it's laughable to think it could be any better than it currently is.

    Which is precisely why the PS unions won't touch it.


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    #86
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Do you know how much the PS pension funding is costing this state!?!

    I have a good idea, yes
    I do agree with you that the PS should be allowed into the real world and fund its own pension, but it's laughable to think it could be any better than it currently is.

    i didn't say it wasn't a great deal (at present)

    the issue seems to be that they could change anything whenever they want while stopping us doing anything else

    e.g. they could increase contributions whenever they like; can change the amounts paid , etc

    we have no actual legal rights to any pension as such

    I would not mind increasing the contribution etc but in return for a legal right to a particular terms and conditions


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    #87
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Riskymove wrote: »

    we have no actual legal rights to any pension as such

    I would not mind increasing the contribution etc but in return for a legal right to a particular terms and conditions

    To be honest I don't know the lack of legal right you mention - however, I have never heard of a PS worker being denied a pension. Have you? The unions would never allow it. Frankly, I'd rather a PS union than a solicitor advocating for me any day.


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    #88
    kmick
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭kmick


    Well very simply if we have receipts of 20bn and outgoings of 35bn then something has got to give. If a private sector company decides to cut wages then the employees suck it up or go elsewhere. The public service as I see it have three choices suck it up, strike or go elsewhere.

    Now lets look at the last two nurses strikes. The first strike they had everyone was behind them. The second strike which seemed to be mainly around the introduction of a 35 hour week (which they got) no one really cared. To the normal private sector joe it just seemed like another grab. My feeling are that strikes now would lead to lethal hostility towards the PS as people feel. rightly or wrongly that the majority of PS workers have a reasonable deal. Not a brilliant deal but a reasonable one.


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    #89
    MysticalRain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭MysticalRain


    Turty3 wrote: »
    As a public sector worker I am willing to take a fair share in cuts if it helps to fix the country's economy. However it is my belief that the government should lead by example and take a pay cut first. I feel it's time that if cuts are necessary they should be made from the top down. I am married to a private sector worker who is unemployed and I work with the unemployed population on a daily basis; I therefore take exception to the generalisations above. I do not feel entitled to any more than anyone else who works here and I am fully informed and experienced in the realities faced by people trying to survive in this economy - I too am one of them.

    I have two parents who are public sector workers. So I see both sides of the debate here. I hate stereotyping of public-sector workers as much as anyone, but those public-sector people on frontline last night didn't come across very well IMO and engaged in a fair amount of stereotyping themselves. The few private-sector workers that got a chance to speak came across as more sympathetic from what I could see.

    I would love to see the fatcats targeted too. If I was in charge, I wouldn't touch the salaries of anyone earning under 40K a year. But I would knock 10-20 percent off the salaries of anyone earning above that. Closer to 10% for the teacher earning 50-60K / year and closer to 20% for the higher end management types and CEOs.


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    #90
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    MysticalRain wrote: »
    I have two parents who are public sector workers. So I see both sides of the debate here. I hate stereotyping of public-sector workers as much as anyone, but those public-sector people on frontline last night didn't come across very well IMO and engaged in a fair amount of stereotyping themselves. The few private-sector workers that got a chance to speak came across as more sympathetic from what I could see.

    I would love to see the fatcats targeted too. If I was in charge, I wouldn't touch the salaries of anyone earning under 40K a year. But I would knock 10-20 percent off the salaries of anyone earning above that. Closer to 10% for the teacher earning 50-60K / year and closer to 20% for the higher end management types and CEOs.

    Fair comments MysticalRain....only I think the pay reductions should apply to those on lower incomes too, but not as much. I know plenty of people in the country in the private sector with 3rd level qualifications and say 10 years work experience + who get less than 37 or 40 k....and they have less security, less pension, work longer hours, have less tea breaks, more pressure etc. Look at what professionals in the public sector get in other countries + it will open your eyes. The p.s. pay cuts should bring everyone in to line with the private sector + the ps in other countries. The p.s. ( + others who get the government cheque ) have milked the taxpayer for long enough.


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    #91
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    kmick wrote: »
    Well very simply if we have receipts of 20bn and outgoings of 35bn then something has got to give.
    I thought it was reciepts of around €30 billion and outgoings somewhere north of €50 billion? I sincerely hope the shortfall is closer to €20 billion than €30 billion, twenty we can manage alright if we act quickly, thirty is just ruination.


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