So what will change?

AlmightyCushion

I'm probably gonna regret starting this but here we go. I've tried reading up about the treaty and to be honest I still can't really get my head around it that much. So in basic english can some tell me what happens if we vote yes and what happens if we vote note. I'm not looking for what europe may do if we this gets passed or not just what this will change.

Also, bullet points would be great.

Scofflaw

Very briefly:

1. the Treaty makes EU legislation subject, for the first time, to a set of legally enforceable citizen rights in the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

2. the Treaty makes EU legislation subject to challenge by the national parliaments, and increases the information and notice that must be given to national parliaments.

3. the Treaty moves certain decision-making areas to QMV, and allows for further areas to be moved to QMV by unanimous agreement of all the member states (this is the 'self-amending' bit).

4. the Treaty makes a lot of decision-making areas (many of which are already QMV areas) subject to additional amendment or rejection by the European Parliament - it also makes the whole budget of the EU require approval by the European Parliament

5. the Treaty changes the way that the Council of Ministers calculates voting weights, the way the European Parliament sets its number of seats, and the way the Commission composition is decided - so that any future accession will not require a round of horse-trading, but will simply be plugged into the 'equations'. Despite the furore and the posters, the change to Ireland's voting weight on the Council is a tiny (positive) adjustment that is the result of the new method of weighting - instead of three weights of 0.8%, 2.02% and 3.7% (average 2.17%), we now have two weights of 0.8% and 3.7% (average 2.25%).

6. the Treaty amalgamates the two existing "External Affairs" positions into one position - this "High Representative" will be tasked with carrying out any common foreign policy position agreed by all the member states.

7. the Treaty clearly sets out for the first time the areas in which the EU has a competence, and adds non-exclusive competences in energy and space, and a supporting role in sport and tourism.

8. the Treaty contains a number of provisions that allow more cooperation between the member states in tackling cross-border crime and illegal immigration - Ireland has opted out of these for the time being, but the amendment we're voting on contains the option for them to opt back in, subject to the approval of the Oireachtas.

9. the Treaty sets out a series of requirements for additional transparency, such as requiring the Council to meet in public when debating or voting on legislation - this will allow us for the first time to see our government's role in any EU legislation.

10. the Treaty clearly sets out the limits of the EU's powers, and the fact that those powers derive solely from the member states.

11. the Treaty expands the rights of individuals to bring proceedings in the ECJ against EU legislation (in addition to the Charter).

12. the Treaty creates a mechanism whereby a petition can be used to request that the Commission make a legislative proposal. The Commission produces 95% of its draft legislation in response to requests from the other institutions or civil society groups, so this allows citizens to tap into the normal channel for creating EU legislation. Any legislation produced on foot of this will still be subject to the normal EU process of voting, challenge, and amendment by the Council of Ministers, the European Parliament, and national parliaments.

In very brief summary, Lisbon is first and foremost an improvement of the relation between citizens and the EU, after the governmental and institutional gains of Nice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

An Fear Aniar

See my sig for my reasons to vote NO. There are lots of other reasons to vote NO but these are my choice ones.

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samhail

If Ireland votes no this time - will the EU complete this lisbon treaty without us ?

ei.sdraob

samhail wrote: »

If Ireland votes no this time - will the EU complete this lisbon treaty without us ?

to pass Lisbon all countries must agree to it

...

Krusader

samhail wrote: »

If Ireland votes no this time - will the EU complete this lisbon treaty without us ?

Well if the Conservatives get in power in UK, they said they will hold a referendum on it, so we can kiss the Treaty goodbye then

PopeBuckfastXVI

samhail wrote: »

If Ireland votes no this time - will the EU complete this lisbon treaty without us ?

No the Lisbon treaty cannot be implemented without Ireland.

There is nothing to stop the other 26 member states concluding multi-lateral agreements on things like adopting common energy policies that would result in cheaper electricity for them, while allowing us to not participate.

There's no guarantee this will happen, but it's a possible way for the rest of them to cooperate in areas in which we have said we don't want to be involved.

An Fear Aniar

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

No the Lisbon treaty cannot be implemented without Ireland.

There is nothing to stop the other 26 member states concluding multi-lateral agreements on things like adopting common energy policies that would result in cheaper electricity for them, while allowing us to not participate.

There's no guarantee this will happen, but it's a possible way for the rest of them to cooperate in areas in which we have said we don't want to be involved.

We will have said we don't want the Lisbon Treaty. There's nothing to stop us entering into agreements where we could see some economic benefit.

There's no way in the world they could sideline us or exclude us. Why? Because we were the only country to attempt to ratify the Treaty with a public vote. The EU are aware of their "democratic deficit" problem and any backlash against the voters of Ireland would amount to a total PR disaster for Brussels.

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Hyperbullet

Can I ask what has changed in this treaty since the last referendum? And also what differences there are now compared to the treaty that was rejected by france and holland in 2005?

Santa Claus

What does Scofflaw mean by QMV ??

And more importantly, will there be cake if either side wins ?

twinytwo

eu policy can be changed without ever getting the approval of the people again... there is nothing stopping the eu using the new voting system to assign themselves more and more power.... it as usual will end up witht eh small countries getting ****ed over.... it in a nutshell is about protecting the big countries and big business...

The EU should be controlled by the people not the suits who are out of touch with the people... 80 - 90% of the treaty is fine, its the remaining 10%-20% you have to worry about

condra

Although I generally relate well to my European neighbours culturally and politically, I always thought of Europe as an economical entity, rather than a political entity.

Am I right in thinking that passing the LT would further push Europe in the direction of a political unit, rather than simply a convenient economic agreement which benefits all members?

Personally, I am in favour of Europe expanding, if it helps less fortunate countries to develop, but I treasure Irelands neutrality and cultural identity, so am rather weary of the direction Europe is headed.

I am still undecided as to how I will vote, but I am leaning towards "no" beause of the aforementioned ponderings.

Of course, one of the most obvious reasons to vote "no" is that we have already voted!
Had we voted "yes" the first time round, would they have asked us if we wanted to change our minds a year later?

By the way, for what it's worth, I'm pretty appauled by the campaign tactics of BOTH SIDES of the argument. People aren't been given much clearly explained, unbiased information.

molloyjh

twinytwo wrote: »

eu policy can be changed without ever getting the approval of the people again... there is nothing stopping the eu using the new voting system to assign themselves more and more power.... it as usual will end up witht eh small countries getting ****ed over.... it in a nutshell is about protecting the big countries and big business...

The EU should be controlled by the people not the suits who are out of touch with the people... 80 - 90% of the treaty is fine, its the remaining 10%-20% you have to worry about

Don't mind this post, there's no factual information here. Scofflaw covered it pretty well above.

Article 42, which is the Self-Amending aspect of the Treaty that twinytwo is referring to above, changes how amendments to the rules of the EU are made. Currently all amendments require a Treaty that must be ratified by all Member States. The Treaties are just a list of changes to wordings etc. The proposed method is to allow the EU to change the text directly. Any changes need to be ratified by all Member States in exactly the same way as they are now.

QMV is Qualified Majority Voting, which is used as a way to fairly balance voting weights amoung Member States. So it gives each country a set weight which relates in part to their population and in part to the fact that they are Member States. So our weight is approx 2.3% (with a population of about 0.8%). The new method for QMV removes set weights and replaces them with a "double lock" system. One lock is based on population (where we would get a 0.8% weight) and the other is based on simply being a Member State (where we would get approx 3.2%). It gives us in and around (to within a fraction of a percent anyway) the same weight as we have now.

Agus

What would Ireland gain / lose under Lisbon? (In terms of specific quantifiable advantages / disadvanages as opposed to more speculative things that might or might not happen)?